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I don't see how they work. For me, the new dark eldar army list is a wolf with no teeth. You have lots of assault skimmers that can claim high jink saves in the first turn and turbo boost 24 to get right in the enemies faces. But whats the point if all this achieves is delivering mediocre units who get killed by overwatching flamers and even at full strength can barely dent non dedicated assault units like tactical squads? Now some people might be saying "oh but they're cheaper than tactical squads so just throw more wyches at them". Right, a squad of wyches needs to have a raider to be effective. Otherwise it will NEVER get into CC. So effectively you're paying 235 points for a wych squad with raider n night shields and a squad leader with agoniser. This is more expensive than a space marine squad and considering the raider amounts to a ticking time bomb that can kill almost all of the squad if it explodes its a double edged sword.

The math simply doesn't add up. Its always going to be better to take kabalite warriors and shoot the enemy to death rather than let the enemy use the more expensive wyches for target practice. You're paying through the nose for units that don't fulfill any battlefield role and aside from thematic reasons nobody would ever take them.

Considering how much the lore hypes these units as elite close combat troops they are simply past a joke. Hoard units like daemons and genestealers are better in every single regard to them.

I think GW rationale was that rather than make wyches an elites choice with good stats they wanted them to be troops and for everybody to take tons of them. Unfortunately this turned into making wyches utter garbage. A unit where you;re basically giving your opponent an ego boost where he thinks hes awesome for mowing dozens of them down.



First game I played this was really apparent. The new night shields and cover rules really let my ravagers dominate the battlefield and destroy all the iron warriors tanks. My kabalites did very well with their own lances and one took out three terminators. My four wych squads with radiers and lelith however performed horribly. A helldrake destroyed leliths transport and killed most of her squad. She then has the remainder overwatched by pistols before being shot in the face by a plasma pistol herself. My opponent seemed to think that killing one terminator champion and a under strength raptors squad was an achievement and declared the character OP. On the other side I had three wych squads ranged against essentially one tactical squad in a rhino. This, plus some obliterator fire, took out two of my raiders and the explosion killed most of one squad. The first to charge bounced off the chaos marines as their overwatch killed most of the survivors anyway. I then got two more squads to charge them, losing more people to overwatch until I finally killed them. Meaning it took 700pts of dark eldar not including sporadic ravager and ravenwing support to kill a single chaos squad in a rhino. Of course by then the helldrake arrived and killed one squad whilst the daemon prince challenged my squad leader meaning I didn't get to strike back so he routed the unit. Basically, one half of my army performed amazingly, cutting down monstrous creatures and terminators with shooting. The other, the most expensive bulk of my army got butchered in every single engagement and was borderline useless for anything except diverting fire.

I wasn't around for 6th edition, but haven't wyches sucked since... Well, forever? The only use people had for them was haywiring vehicles to death, which while cool, made no sense. Why would a bunch of gladiators have anti-vehicle equipment?

If I had to guess, I'd say wyches are just another low/no armor save assault unit that Phil Kelly seems to have an obsession with. Mind you, I don't think he's ever managed to make that concept work, but he keeps trying...!

It's a shame they're so bad, the idea behind them is nice, even if it is a bit odd. I guess it's a case of cool but impractical.

Is there no way to make them work? Not even with one of those webway portals?

Wych weapons were cool in a former edition where they took away the enemy's second cc weapon.
This helped a lot vs cc oriented units.

They are a mediocre unit atm.
They could hold up a Termie unit for a while.
Other than that they are quite useless.

The Problem with Wyches is that GW ignored its own fluff and made them rubbish in CC......

They did get a (very) slight buff in that they can get FNP before they make it into combat without having to give them a homunculus, so they're slightly more survivable now. That being said, you're not going to see them in any competitive lists. They're made to be a tarpit unit, but they're too expensive to fulfill that role effectively.

 Mumblez wrote:
I wasn't around for 6th edition, but haven't wyches sucked since... Well, forever? The only use people had for them was haywiring vehicles to death, which while cool, made no sense. Why would a bunch of gladiators have anti-vehicle equipment?

If I had to guess, I'd say wyches are just another low/no armor save assault unit that Phil Kelly seems to have an obsession with. Mind you, I don't think he's ever managed to make that concept work, but he keeps trying...!

It's a shame they're so bad, the idea behind them is nice, even if it is a bit odd. I guess it's a case of cool but impractical.

Is there no way to make them work? Not even with one of those webway portals?

No.

The battle I played was unsual since he only had two troops choice. His termies were reserve and the rest were in a land raider and rhino. In theory I could have moved 24'' with a 2+ cover save on the first turn and then assaulted but was unable to do so because vehicles.

The problem isn't getting them into CC, even at full strength that is possible if your opponent isn't being a min maxer and takes no troops. Its that overwatch cuts them down and they don't have the hitting power to be able to do anything even if they strike first. By the time I had good abilities from power through pain like fearless, the game was effectively already over and everyone of my wyches was dead. The game then devolved into him jinking with his helldrake vs dark lances and my ravagers killing what was left of his infantry. The reason that game annoys me is because with shooting like that I would have tabled him with any other army by turn 3. The fact was that I had nothing to deal with his helldrake (which demolished two whole flanks of my army single handed and to which the DE have no counter) and more importantly that 2/3 of my army was garbage wyches. More ravagers, kabalites and razor fighters and I would have wiped him out easily.

They would be great at killing small weak units or holding up blobs i guess

But who cares about that when they generally will be 2-3 man strong without there transport by the time they get there

 Nate668 wrote:
They did get a (very) slight buff in that they can get FNP before they make it into combat without having to
give them a homunculus, so they're slightly more survivable now. That being said, you're not going to see them in any competitive lists. They're made to be a tarpit unit, but they're too expensive to fulfill that role effectively.

Yes they should never have been imagined as a tarpit unit and the fluff completely goes against that.

 Mumblez wrote:
I wasn't around for 6th edition, but haven't wyches sucked since... Well, forever? The only use people had for them was haywiring vehicles to death, which while cool, made no sense. Why would a bunch of gladiators have anti-vehicle equipment?

The original (well, after the White Dwarf update) Wyches were dominant, if you could get them in to close combat.

Opponents didn't get to use any attacks from extra close combat weapons, they counted their WS as 1/2 (rounded up) unless their S was 6+, and a third affect I can't remember. Also, their drug options were better: 12" assault, +1 WS, +1 S, Re-roll to hit, +1 Attack, and I think ASF. Lastly, a unit of 10 could take two special weapons, usually Blasters that were 5 points apiece at the time.

In that incarnation, they excelled at taking your opponent's best close combat unit and making it completely ineffectual, while simultaneously grinding it down to nothing. Back then, the only close combat unit I feared with Wyches was Genestealers because they attacked either first or simultaneously with the Wyches. It was a big advantage to hit your opponent first with, on the charge, 27-36 S3(or 4) attacks and 4-5 4+ to wound Agoniser attacks when the Agoniser was effectively AP2 by current edition standards.

Based on what Wyches once were, both of the last two codices present a much more pathetic version of that unit.

Dark Eldar have fliers, that's your counter to the helldrake. You just didn't happen to have any fliers. If you had a razorwing (or whatever the DE flier is called), you could have just lanced it down.

 Mumblez wrote:
I wasn't around for 6th edition, but haven't wyches sucked since... Well, forever? The only use people had for them was haywiring vehicles to death, which while cool, made no sense. Why would a bunch of gladiators have anti-vehicle equipment?

If I had to guess, I'd say wyches are just another low/no armor save assault unit that Phil Kelly seems to have an obsession with. Mind you, I don't think he's ever managed to make that concept work, but he keeps trying...!

It's a shame they're so bad, the idea behind them is nice, even if it is a bit odd. I guess it's a case of cool but impractical.

Is there no way to make them work? Not even with one of those webway portals?

No, wyches haven't sucked forever. Wych rush lists used to be a big thing. 2 popular DE builds were Wyche lists and Lance spam lists. The prior codex cut down on their CC abilities a bit, but they could still do ok, and had haywires so they were capable against more than just min squads of infantry (and a Dread couldn't tie them up indefinitely). They've been in a downward spiral for the past few updates, not helped at all by the fact that the game as a whole has become more and more shooting friendly.

And why wouldn't they have haywires? Its like people assume they go from the arena dressing room, straight into a realspace raid without re-equiping. I would assume that U.S. Army football players would go into battle wearing kevlar with assault rifles... not football pads and grass cleats. So why would DE arena atheletes not bring gear more appropriate for the mission, like haywire grenades.

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Dark Eldar have fliers, that's your counter to the helldrake. You just didn't happen to have any fliers. If you had a razorwing (or whatever the DE flier is called), you could have just lanced it down.

I had a razorwing. Positioning fliers against eachother is difficult since razor has no vector dance. Plus, since it has a flame weapon it can just jink all my abilties and still vector strike/flame a squad/vehicle a turn. It also has 360 degrees of shooting whereas I can only shoot in a narrow 45 degree arc.

Fliers are a poor counter to other fliers. You need masses of skyfire shots not two lances.

Wyches are far from uselss, you just have to be intelligent about how you use them, as their correct use is counterintuitive. You (and most players) want to use them as assault units, shooting them forward into the enemy and charging in to slaughter them in cc. The reality is that theyre a cleanup unit. Hold them back, pop your opponents transports, thin out their ranks THEN send in the wyches to finish them off. Its actually kind of fluffy if you think about it, since in the fluff the wyches have a tendency to prey on the weak rather than fight fairly

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wyches are far from uselss, you just have to be intelligent about how you use them, as their correct use is counterintuitive. You (and most players) want to use them as assault units, shooting them forward into the enemy and charging in to slaughter them in cc. The reality is that theyre a cleanup unit. Hold them back, pop your opponents transports, thin out their ranks THEN send in the wyches to finish them off. Its actually kind of fluffy if you think about it, since in the fluff the wyches have a tendency to prey on the weak rather than fight fairly

This is bull. Its always more effective to just shoot the survivors again with MOAR shooting. Why bother taking 230pts for a raider n wych squad that sits idle most of the game instead of a cheaper shooting unit? I could take two ravagers for the same price. It also leaves several turns of you having to awkwardly rely on jinking as the enemy repeatedly shoots your raiders with everything because they know they can kill a transport and a squad with one explosion.

Fun fact, night shields + jink = 3+ cover. That's power armor on a fast assault transport. If you're wych rushing, that means the enemy gets about one round of shooting that's 1/3 effective without IG orders or being Eldar (and Eldar kill everything, always). Wouldn't be too concerned about exploding raiders, which if exploded would take out about half the squad (not the whole thing).

No need to make a bad situation seem worse than it is.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Dark Eldar have fliers, that's your counter to the helldrake. You just didn't happen to have any fliers. If you had a razorwing (or whatever the DE flier is called), you could have just lanced it down.

I had a razorwing. Positioning fliers against eachother is difficult since razor has no vector dance. Plus, since it has a flame weapon it can just jink all my abilties and still vector strike/flame a squad/vehicle a turn. It also has 360 degrees of shooting whereas I can only shoot in a narrow 45 degree arc.

Fliers are a poor counter to other fliers. You need masses of skyfire shots not two lances.

Hell drake weapons are back to being a hull mounted directional weapon.

Also wow, Heldrakes cannot jink and shoot their weapons. If you jink, you snapfire. Flame weapons cannot be snapfired. Hence you do not shoot them if you jink.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wyches are far from uselss, you just have to be intelligent about how you use them, as their correct use is counterintuitive. You (and most players) want to use them as assault units, shooting them forward into the enemy and charging in to slaughter them in cc. The reality is that theyre a cleanup unit. Hold them back, pop your opponents transports, thin out their ranks THEN send in the wyches to finish them off. Its actually kind of fluffy if you think about it, since in the fluff the wyches have a tendency to prey on the weak rather than fight fairly

This is bull. Its always more effective to just shoot the survivors again with MOAR shooting. Why bother taking 230pts for a raider n wych squad that sits idle most of the game instead of a cheaper shooting unit? I could take two ravagers for the same price. It also leaves several turns of you having to awkwardly rely on jinking as the enemy repeatedly shoots your raiders with everything because they know they can kill a transport and a squad with one explosion.

I feel like you kind of answered your own question. Every shot your opponent wastes on a raider full of wyches is less incoming for the rest of your list to deal with. On top of that, usually there will be better things for you to shoot at then a cut down squad of space marines or what have you, ergo a unit of wyches is a decent investment for handling stragglers.

Mali wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Dark Eldar have fliers, that's your counter to the helldrake. You just didn't happen to have any fliers. If you had a razorwing (or whatever the DE flier is called), you could have just lanced it down.

I had a razorwing. Positioning fliers against eachother is difficult since razor has no vector dance. Plus, since it has a flame weapon it can just jink all my abilties and still vector strike/flame a squad/vehicle a turn. It also has 360 degrees of shooting whereas I can only shoot in a narrow 45 degree arc.

Fliers are a poor counter to other fliers. You need masses of skyfire shots not two lances.

Hell drake weapons are back to being a hull mounted directional weapon.

And if they jink, they snap fire, which means no shooting, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But as far as wyches go, I'm with you. Mine are going to be built with spare shuriken catapults to fill in as guardians when I ally.

-Matt

Saldiven wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:
I wasn't around for 6th edition, but haven't wyches sucked since... Well, forever? The only use people had for them was haywiring vehicles to death, which while cool, made no sense. Why would a bunch of gladiators have anti-vehicle equipment?

The original (well, after the White Dwarf update) Wyches were dominant, if you could get them in to close combat.

Opponents didn't get to use any attacks from extra close combat weapons, they counted their WS as 1/2 (rounded up) unless their S was 6+, and a third affect I can't remember. Also, their drug options were better: 12" assault, +1 WS, +1 S, Re-roll to hit, +1 Attack, and I think ASF. Lastly, a unit of 10 could take two special weapons, usually Blasters that were 5 points apiece at the time.

In that incarnation, they excelled at taking your opponent's best close combat unit and making it completely ineffectual, while simultaneously grinding it down to nothing. Back then, the only close combat unit I feared with Wyches was Genestealers because they attacked either first or simultaneously with the Wyches. It was a big advantage to hit your opponent first with, on the charge, 27-36 S3(or 4) attacks and 4-5 4+ to wound Agoniser attacks when the Agoniser was effectively AP2 by current edition standards.

Based on what Wyches once were, both of the last two codices present a much more pathetic version of that unit.

Indeed, Wwyches were my favorite unit in the third edition.
A steel in cc. It's a pity.

im still figuring out if wyches work. ive got ideas that might make it, but I cant believe the backlash this book has.

7th has been amazing to us and the new codex is sweet. yes, i will miss haywire wyches but thats ok.

raiders explode? that almost never happens? wrecked, sure. so turbo on turn one and get where you want to be. if it wrecks, oh well.

and overwatch flamers? how many flamers do you REALLY encounter? theyre not that common. if you worry about it, then double charge.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wyches are far from uselss, you just have to be intelligent about how you use them, as their correct use is counterintuitive. You (and most players) want to use them as assault units, shooting them forward into the enemy and charging in to slaughter them in cc. The reality is that theyre a cleanup unit. Hold them back, pop your opponents transports, thin out their ranks THEN send in the wyches to finish them off. Its actually kind of fluffy if you think about it, since in the fluff the wyches have a tendency to prey on the weak rather than fight fairly

I don't think its that they are useless, any unit in the game can have uses. The thing with them right now, even if only being used as a cleanup unit, is that they don't do it better than many other units available. Why take Wyches for cleanup when you can take other units that can perform cleanup along with taking care of other battlefield roles. Most people don't take a unit just because they are good at cleanup, they want them to also be able to contribute in other meaningful ways.

I'm not down on DE as a whole right now, I still like them and I think they will do ok. Not great, but ok (assuming no allies). Changes to lists have to be made, pretty big changes, as our HQ and Troops sections have had their roles changed around completely. But I still think they are a fun army, just wish Wyches were still like they were back in their hayday.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wyches are far from uselss, you just have to be intelligent about how you use them, as their correct use is counterintuitive. You (and most players) want to use them as assault units, shooting them forward into the enemy and charging in to slaughter them in cc. The reality is that theyre a cleanup unit. Hold them back, pop your opponents transports, thin out their ranks THEN send in the wyches to finish them off. Its actually kind of fluffy if you think about it, since in the fluff the wyches have a tendency to prey on the weak rather than fight fairly

I don't think its that they are useless, any unit in the game can have uses. The thing with them right now, even if only being used as a cleanup unit, is that they don't do it better than many other units available. Why take Wyches for cleanup when you can take other units that can perform cleanup along with taking care of other battlefield roles. Most people don't take a unit just because they are good at cleanup, they want them to also be able to contribute in other meaningful ways.

I'm not down on DE as a whole right now, I still like them and I think they will do ok. Not great, but ok (assuming no allies). Changes to lists have to be made, pretty big changes, as our HQ and Troops sections have had their roles changed around completely. But I still think they are a fun army, just wish Wyches were still like they were back in their hayday.

Its not an either/or proposition though. Lets put it this way, you have a unit of warriors with a couple special weapons, they just blew up a rhino with their shooting and killing two marines in the explosion, leaving a squad of i angry marines in assault range of them. Your options are to sit their and take what they dish out to you the following turn (likely dead warriors), charge the marines with the warriors (likely dead warriors, if not thrn you wasted points on weapons you wont use next turn), waste other units firing at the marines to kill them off (in which case your warriors survive but another of your opponents threats will also survive), OR you can take a unit of wyches and charge the marines, at the very least tying them up, and at best killing them entirely, even better if you use one or two of those other units you likely had that either didnt have a good target for their weapons/were out of range of anything meaningful help thin that 8 man unit down to say 5. They still represent a threat to your warriors, but your wyches are almost twice as likely to murder them in combat.

On top of that, wyches also make a great countercharge unit for those situations when your warriors do end up in melee and you want to bail them out.

Poorish comparison, considering the points spent on cleanup witches could be points spent on more warriors to do the cleanup job at range, from the raider or venom you bought for the witches. It isn't so much an either/or question as it is "why buy both when two of one is cheaper and equally effective than one of each?"

Mali wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Dark Eldar have fliers, that's your counter to the helldrake. You just didn't happen to have any fliers. If you had a razorwing (or whatever the DE flier is called), you could have just lanced it down.

I had a razorwing. Positioning fliers against eachother is difficult since razor has no vector dance. Plus, since it has a flame weapon it can just jink all my abilties and still vector strike/flame a squad/vehicle a turn. It also has 360 degrees of shooting whereas I can only shoot in a narrow 45 degree arc.

Fliers are a poor counter to other fliers. You need masses of skyfire shots not two lances.

Hell drake weapons are back to being a hull mounted directional weapon.

obsidiankatana wrote:Also wow, Heldrakes cannot jink and shoot their weapons. If you jink, you snapfire. Flame weapons cannot be snapfired. Hence you do not shoot them if you jink.

obsidiankatana wrote:Fun fact, night shields + jink = 3+ cover. That's power armor on a fast assault transport. If you're wych rushing, that means the enemy gets about one round of shooting that's 1/3 effective without IG orders or being Eldar (and Eldar kill everything, always). Wouldn't be too concerned about exploding raiders, which if exploded would take out about half the squad (not the whole thing).

No need to make a bad situation seem worse than it is.

raoiley wrote:im still figuring out if wyches work. ive got ideas that might make it, but I cant believe the backlash this book has.

7th has been amazing to us and the new codex is sweet. yes, i will miss haywire wyches but thats ok.

raiders explode? that almost never happens? wrecked, sure. so turbo on turn one and get where you want to be. if it wrecks, oh well.

and overwatch flamers? how many flamers do you REALLY encounter? theyre not that common. if you worry about it, then double charge.

Regards Helldrake... Being lied to by guy don't know rules. Must have asked him three times about if that's how that unit works. His opinion was that it had 360 degree arc of fire as the point to it and that like the overwatch ground flamers could still do D3 hits. It could also vector strike and ignore cover. Plus he has an obsession with using it to instant death Lelith that borders on the insane. Seriously I am this close just throwing my two riptides in my army to kill the thing; its pretty much single handedly won him his games against my Dark Eldar.

Yes you can get 3+ cover on raiders. Its a neat 60pts upgrade to keep your wyches alive. The problem is that a persistent enemy can still get through this, or he just uses a helldrake. Being open topped means your vehces will explode, something that rhinos don't get. The problem is that this is a perfect delivery system that is wasted on an army with mediocre CC options. Its clearly been designed with wyches in mind but falls flat on its face because the unit is so terrible. Even if you get three intact squads to disgorge in front of the enemy and charge you will still lose.

One flamer equals d3 dead wyches. They only need one and the squad can basically win any assault unless I throw 3x the number of points of wyches at the squad. It completely neutralises the ability for elder to strike first.

How does double charge solve anything? You're throwing double, in my case triple, your points at a unit to (hopefully) ensure killing it, presenting a massive target for the opponents blast weapons and you will still suffer the same casualties on those wyches; just in a different squad.

Again, there is no logic in having a 230pts unit sitting around doing nothing waiting for dark elder shooting to leave these stragglers. It also makes playing a wych cult army impossible which is stupid.

It's a 70pt delivery to everything. You're taking it for warriors or wyches, but it will be there, so counting it as a tax is rather silly. And no, being open topped does not mean your vehicle WILL explode. It means it has a 1/6 chance to explode against most guns. By definition it is more likely NOT to explode. And again, one flamer does not equal d3 dead wyches. It equals d3 HITS against charging wyches. Even the maximum number of hits on a flamer would kill two wyches on average. And they don't only need one to tip the favor, a wych squad's damage should be coming from wych weapons and the hekatrix. Don't put those in front. Problem solved.

For the record, drakes do ID Lelith. Str6 to T3.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wyches are far from uselss, you just have to be intelligent about how you use them, as their correct use is counterintuitive. You (and most players) want to use them as assault units, shooting them forward into the enemy and charging in to slaughter them in cc. The reality is that theyre a cleanup unit. Hold them back, pop your opponents transports, thin out their ranks THEN send in the wyches to finish them off. Its actually kind of fluffy if you think about it, since in the fluff the wyches have a tendency to prey on the weak rather than fight fairly

This is bull. Its always more effective to just shoot the survivors again with MOAR shooting. Why bother taking 230pts for a raider n wych squad that sits idle most of the game instead of a cheaper shooting unit? I could take two ravagers for the same price. It also leaves several turns of you having to awkwardly rely on jinking as the enemy repeatedly shoots your raiders with everything because they know they can kill a transport and a squad with one explosion.

I feel like you kind of answered your own question. Every shot your opponent wastes on a raider full of wyches is less incoming for the rest of your list to deal with. On top of that, usually there will be better things for you to shoot at then a cut down squad of space marines or what have you, ergo a unit of wyches is a decent investment for handling stragglers.

Doesn't change the fact that every unit of Wyches you have in a Raider sitting around waiting for a transport to be destroyed is a wasted unit while it's waiting. You're far, far better of taking something that is effective and useful on turn one, or two at the latest. Wyches are, at best, a sub-optimal choice, no matter how smart a person thinks he/she is with their usage.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
It's a 70pt delivery to everything. You're taking it for warriors or wyches, but it will be there, so counting it as a tax is rather silly. And no, being open topped does not mean your vehicle WILL explode. It means it has a 1/6 chance to explode against most guns. By definition it is more likely NOT to explode. And again, one flamer does not equal d3 dead wyches. It equals d3 HITS against charging wyches. Even the maximum number of hits on a flamer would kill two wyches on average. And they don't only need one to tip the favor, a wych squad's damage should be coming from wych weapons and the hekatrix. Don't put those in front. Problem solved.

For the record, drakes do ID Lelith. Str6 to T3.

Yes that's why he keeps doing it/trying to do it. Incredibly annoying since I can't bring str8 flamers and instant death his special characters half way across the board when they are inside squads. Its mainly because the game assumes that everything is t4 and has power armor so doesn't increase the cost of ID weapons.

Wych weapons are terrible in this edition. Re-roll wounds on a single model or re roll wounds on 1 and lose attacks. Why would I even bother taking them? They offer no advantage.

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Dark Eldar have fliers, that's your counter to the helldrake. You just didn't happen to have any fliers. If you had a razorwing (or whatever the DE flier is called), you could have just lanced it down.

have you actually tried to down a heldrade with a razorwing? You are likely going to need 3+ razorwings to ever down a heldrake, and the drake can just VS a razorwing, likely destroying it in a single go.

Razorwing Fighters are not dogfighters, they arent even fighters. They are best used taking out blobs of infantry. All their missiles and most of their guns work that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
It's a 70pt delivery to everything. You're taking it for warriors or wyches, but it will be there, so counting it as a tax is rather silly. And no, being open topped does not mean your vehicle WILL explode. It means it has a 1/6 chance to explode against most guns. By definition it is more likely NOT to explode. And again, one flamer does not equal d3 dead wyches. It equals d3 HITS against charging wyches. Even the maximum number of hits on a flamer would kill two wyches on average. And they don't only need one to tip the favor, a wych squad's damage should be coming from wych weapons and the hekatrix. Don't put those in front. Problem solved.

For the record, drakes do ID Lelith. Str6 to T3.

Yes that's why he keeps doing it/trying to do it. Incredibly annoying since I can't bring str8 flamers and instant death his special characters half way across the board when they are inside squads. Its mainly because the game assumes that everything is t4 and has power armor so doesn't increase the cost of ID weapons.

Wych weapons are terrible in this edition. Re-roll wounds on a single model or re roll wounds on 1 and lose attacks. Why would I even bother taking them? They offer no advantage.

because they are AP5!

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Wych weapons are terrible in this edition. Re-roll wounds on a single model or re roll wounds on 1 and lose attacks. Why would I even bother taking them? They offer no advantage.

150 points is 10 wyches with 3 hydra gauntles and a Hekatrix with agonizer.
On the charge, the special 4 will get 9 attacks at S3 re-rolling to wound, and 4 attacks AP3 poison 4+. It's about 2 kills on marines without drugs. Half of the drugs help you kill more,
WS: 3.11 kills
Str: 3.33 kills
Att: 3.02 kills
All that's assuming you lost 3 wyches to over-watch on the way in.
Now, if your hitting a tactical squad, you can actually out grind them. If you're hitting anything with more than a single attack, you're in trouble.
Rather than that, why not try small units of incubi.
5 incubi with Klaive is going to be throwing out ~18 S4 AP2 attacks on the charge, for 40 points less.
You're looking at ~6 kills on the charge. Far better use of 110 points if you ask me.

For troops, I'm leaning toward 5 warriors with Sybarite, blaster, and haywire on the Sybarite. 70 points for a blaster and haywire shot.
These guys will ride in my venoms, because I don't really care if they die. They will act in tandem, firing 2 blasters and 2 haywires at the enemy transport, then peppering them with 24 poison shots from the venoms.

-Matt