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 TheSilo wrote:
With the wyvern on the table and the decreased points on most Russes, is the basilisk out of a job? I keep wanting to try and work mine into a list but I find it hard to justify 125 points for a 12/10/10 open-topped vehicle when the wyvern will usually kill more infantry, especially with its minimum range to consider, and the basilisk can't do much versus vehicles anymore.

Is there still a place for the basilisk?

I don't know if it's bad per se (though it does seem overpriced), but I think the real problem is that we have dozens of different vehicles (including the different Russ variants), yet virtually every single one seems to serve the exact same role - killing infantry. Sure, sometimes we're killing light infantry in cover, sometimes we're killing marines and sometimes we're killing terminators, but at the end of the day we're just killing infantry.

Yet, for better or worse, the game has moved away from infantry. At the very least, there are just far worse threats to deal with. The game now includes Knights and super heavy vehicles - yet most of our heavy ordnance struggles to even kill light transports (since AP3+ can't explode them), and can't even touch fliers. Also, there are some incredibly powerful MCs, but our ordnance is generally stripping, at best, stripping one wound per turn (often not even that). And, if the MC happens to be flying, then you could replace our tanks with sandwich-dispensers and not notice any drop in firepower.

So, I think the issue is that our heavies just haven't kept pace with the game. We're in 7th edition, yet our equipment was best suited to 5th edition. Perhaps that fits the IG flavour of using outdated weapons, but it's bad game-design.

With regard to the Basilisk, I'm just not sure what role it's supposed to serve. There was a time when S8 AP3 could serve double-duty as both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle. Now though, it's basically limited to killing infantry or stripping a hull point per turn off a light vehicle. And, neither of those seem especially useful. Perhaps more importantly, in terms of S8 AP3 Large Blasts:

Well, the fact that it can only one-shot open-topped vehicles is a big nerf, but I wouldn't say they're relegated to just targeting infantry. S9 Ordinance (2D6 pick the highest) is still almost guaranteed to penetrate AV12 and below and there isn't much that's really better in the IG codex for pen'ing AV13 and 14 other than a vanquisher cannon or melta in melta range. With the new jink rules and such, there is still great benefit to forcing something important to snap shoot the following turn. Getting that through the penetration damage table is still good. The last time I played my Basilisk, its first shot immobilized a Wave Serpent hiding in my opponent's backfield, essentially taking it out of the game.

So, it can't do everything on its own, but I think it's a good compliment to any force.

As for your observation about MC's I totally agree and think there needs to be a mechanism in 40k similar to Fantasy where those things take D3 or double wounds or something to certain types of weapons. As is, they are far superior to vehicles, with 5+ wounds and no adverse effects to being wounded, as opposed to vehicles that get pen'ed and can have all sorts of bad stuff happen on the chart. Meanwhile, for them, taking an earthshaker round in the teeth is the same as being shot in the toe with a laspistol.

I have three and use two most games. They are great fun for a good price. They should be tucked away behind the lines. If they get attacked, you have already lost!

 koooaei wrote:
They've wasted a pod+dread and a no-scatter drop to kill a basilisk? And you ain't happy?

It was sitting right next to my ally's SoB command squad, exorcist missile launcher, and my CCS chimera, so they weren't really wasted. We totalled the dread immediately and all he did was one glancing hit on the basilisk, the drop commander easily wrecked its side armor and he did some damage to the command squads by using the wrecked drop pod for cover with his jump-shoot-jump move.

I just think that a LRBT could do all the same offensive work, but with much better armor. So it's still the same threat, just a lot harder to kill.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Still, think about that a second. With your 125 point model, you killed six marines, who run 96 points without upgrades (and I assume they had some sort of wargear among them). Your opponents then had to send a drop pod with a dreadnought and a suit commander to kill it. Depending on the wargear they had, that's nearly 300 points your enemy diverted just to take out this artillery piece you have there in the corner.

Even as an "underwhelming" performance that's not so bad.

84 points

Relegated to the sidelines from the sound of things, more so than dead. Wait one more edition and codex with accompanying rule and points changes and I'm sure they'll be back. Big guns never tire.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Well, the fact that it can only one-shot open-topped vehicles is a big nerf, but I wouldn't say they're relegated to just targeting infantry. S9 Ordinance (2D6 pick the highest) is still almost guaranteed to penetrate AV12 and below and there isn't much that's really better in the IG codex for pen'ing AV13 and 14 other than a vanquisher cannon or melta in melta range.

But that's the thing - because you're only AP3, all your penetrate can do is strip a hull point of the enemy vehicle.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

As for your observation about MC's I totally agree and think there needs to be a mechanism in 40k similar to Fantasy where those things take D3 or double wounds or something to certain types of weapons. As is, they are far superior to vehicles, with 5+ wounds and no adverse effects to being wounded, as opposed to vehicles that get pen'ed and can have all sorts of bad stuff happen on the chart. Meanwhile, for them, taking an earthshaker round in the teeth is the same as being shot in the toe with a laspistol.

I think something like that would be a nice replacement for the current double-toughness rules.

Is there any other weapon (apart from the Deathstrike) in the AM codex armory that can land a shell behind a bunch of Space Marines behind an ADL and wipe them all out since they do not get to take cover saves? I think not.

Or how about landing on the top level of that multi-storied ruin and wiping out the entire 10 man Devastator team with 3 guys on each of the 3 levels in one go? That's what a Basilisk can do. And bubble wrapped by a Guardsman squad, there's little the enemy can do to one-hit kill it.

Now the LRBT, while 25 points costlier, does have better armor, but its pie plate does not ignore cover if the central hole lands at the backs of the defenders.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is there any other weapon (apart from the Deathstrike) in the AM codex armory that can land a shell behind a bunch of Space Marines behind an ADL and wipe them all out since they do not get to take cover saves? I think not.

Or how about landing on the top level of that multi-storied ruin and wiping out the entire 10 man Devastator team with 3 guys on each of the 3 levels in one go? That's what a Basilisk can do. And bubble wrapped by a Guardsman squad, there's little the enemy can do to one-hit kill it.

Now the LRBT, while 25 points costlier, does have better armor, but its pie plate does not ignore cover if the central hole lands at the backs of the defenders.

Master of Ordnance. I'm planning to replace the basilisk with two Masters of Ordnance in CCS chimeras.

 vipoid wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Well, the fact that it can only one-shot open-topped vehicles is a big nerf, but I wouldn't say they're relegated to just targeting infantry. S9 Ordinance (2D6 pick the highest) is still almost guaranteed to penetrate AV12 and below and there isn't much that's really better in the IG codex for pen'ing AV13 and 14 other than a vanquisher cannon or melta in melta range.

But that's the thing - because you're only AP3, all your penetrate can do is strip a hull point of the enemy vehicle.

That can be sufficient though, the range on it means that it can add extra support where needed. Like, if you need to take out guys hiding on an objective one turn, then they can do that, or they could try to strip an HP off a vehicle which wasn't taken out by your other shooting.

 TheSilo wrote:

I just think that a LRBT could do all the same offensive work, but with much better armor. So it's still the same threat, just a lot harder to kill.

Basilisk is barrage, so it has indirect fire (you can put it out of LOS) and has sniping wound allocation. Both are pretty nice, so not exactly the same. Also, it has +1S

Some captain hindsight here: if you would have put your basilisk at the other corner of the table, out of LOS, then your enemies needed to either split forces to deal with both your HQ dense area and your basilisk, or ignore one of them.

 TheSilo wrote:
Master of Ordnance. I'm planning to replace the basilisk with two Masters of Ordnance in CCS chimeras.

True, but the MoO first of all cannot move and shoot, secondly scatters 3D6" instead of 2D6", and thirdly always scatters (even if a hit symbol is rolled, in which case he only scatters 2D6"), while the Basilisk - even during indirect fire - only rolls 2D6" for scatter and nevertheless, always has a 33% chance to land exactly where you placed the pie plate. Of course, the MoO is still a friggin steal for his points but I consider him more of a enemy nuisance and part of psychological warfare than hoping to get some real kills from him.

Zsolt wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

I just think that a LRBT could do all the same offensive work, but with much better armor. So it's still the same threat, just a lot harder to kill.

Basilisk is barrage, so it has indirect fire (you can put it out of LOS) and has sniping wound allocation. Both are pretty nice, so not exactly the same. Also, it has +1S

Some captain hindsight here: if you would have put your basilisk at the other corner of the table, out of LOS, then your enemies needed to either split forces to deal with both your HQ dense area and your basilisk, or ignore one of them.

The mission was vanguard deployment, there was really only one logical place to deploy the basilisk.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is there any other weapon (apart from the Deathstrike) in the AM codex armory that can land a shell behind a bunch of Space Marines behind an ADL and wipe them all out since they do not get to take cover saves? I think not.

Or how about landing on the top level of that multi-storied ruin and wiping out the entire 10 man Devastator team with 3 guys on each of the 3 levels in one go? That's what a Basilisk can do. And bubble wrapped by a Guardsman squad, there's little the enemy can do to one-hit kill it.

Now the LRBT, while 25 points costlier, does have better armor, but its pie plate does not ignore cover if the central hole lands at the backs of the defenders.

Master of Ordnance. I'm planning to replace the basilisk with two Masters of Ordnance in CCS chimeras.

If you want to have a random large blast thrower, I guess this is fine, but I wouldn't call it a replacement as the MoO is pretty hit or miss (mostly, if not all the time, miss).

Earthshaker models aren't cheap, but if you have the cash, I'd recommend getting one...or three. Hell, proxy them if you can and see if you like them.

 vipoid wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Well, the fact that it can only one-shot open-topped vehicles is a big nerf, but I wouldn't say they're relegated to just targeting infantry. S9 Ordinance (2D6 pick the highest) is still almost guaranteed to penetrate AV12 and below and there isn't much that's really better in the IG codex for pen'ing AV13 and 14 other than a vanquisher cannon or melta in melta range.

But that's the thing - because you're only AP3, all your penetrate can do is strip a hull point of the enemy vehicle.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

As for your observation about MC's I totally agree and think there needs to be a mechanism in 40k similar to Fantasy where those things take D3 or double wounds or something to certain types of weapons. As is, they are far superior to vehicles, with 5+ wounds and no adverse effects to being wounded, as opposed to vehicles that get pen'ed and can have all sorts of bad stuff happen on the chart. Meanwhile, for them, taking an earthshaker round in the teeth is the same as being shot in the toe with a laspistol.

I think something like that would be a nice replacement for the current double-toughness rules.

Hardly. Unless you're hitting a superheavy, a penetrating hit is still a penetrating hit. Alright, I can't cause an Explodes! result, but I'd happily settle for Weapon Destroyed on a vindicator or Immobilized on a land raider. 'Mission Kills' may not get you victory points directly but they don't half make life easier.

The problem with Monstrous Creatures - and vehicles - against ordnance is that a blast marker still only does one hit. The "earthshaker round in the teeth vs laspistol to the toe" is slightly misrepresentative, as the earthshaker round is five times more likely to cause a wound that matters - that's the difference. But perhaps a better comparison is a battlecannon round and a krak missile; a squad hit by a battlecannon shell all die, whilst a single model (vehicle or monster) only suffers a single hit.

Back in Epic Armageddon, a large model (superheavy tanks & titans) caught at the 'centre hole' of a barrage marker suffered multiple hits. Maybe something like that?

When in doubt, use Forge World. When your opponent says he wont play against Forge World because he doesn't accept or know their rules, let him know ignorance often leads to defeat as it has today.

But yes, Basi is dead with exception of Apoc when you need to bring everything you have...