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All units except Firewarriors should lose Supporting Fire.

Markerlights should not be able to buff snap fire.

Markerlights should be able to nerf cover saves by 1 for every token you expend, rather than just paying a flat 2 tokens for Ignores Cover.

Broadside High Yield Missle Pods should be more expensive. I also think Broadsides should have Slow and Purposeful, but also take a very large point hike for that privilege (they're basically static gun emplacements right now, which is boring). Honestly, broadsides should be totally re-worked, it's one of the most boring things to play against.

Hammerhead guns should be twin-linked (rail gun and ion cannon), but the tank itself should be significantly more expensive and BS3. Submunition rounds should be eliminated - if you want a pie plate, buy an ion cannon.

Most the Independent Characters need tweaking. Commander Shadowsun is fine, but the rest are overpriced or not useful (even Farsight is basically only taken to unlock his bodyguard squad). This is a common problem in all the codexes.

Shas'vres should be BS4.

Commanders should be WS3 and W3. Iridum armor should cost at least 50pts.

Kroot should to lose sniper rounds, but gain some close combat prowess.

Vespids need to be totally re-worked. Maybe give them Pulse Carbines?

The Riptide needs a price hike, or better yet a nerf bat. I support lowering him to T5, lowering the range of the Ion Accelerator to 48" or 36", and making the Ion Accelerator a much more expensive upgrade (maybe 20pts). Ditto for all the Forgeworld variants.

Tau Fliers need a deep discount, or a buff in armor and firepower. The Barracuda should be a standard codex unit.

Stealth Suits should be a Fast Attack choice. They should also lose their battlesuit weapons, and instead have the option to take the weapons that Pathfinders have. Stealth Suits should also be able to take markerlights, but lose Shrouded if they fire them.

Pathfinders should have Stealth. Their special weapon options should be cheaper.

Making the vespid's weapon assault 2 would work.

Also, I disagree with taking away burst cannons. They are very expensive, and it works with them.

I think all Tau should be BS5 and all their weapons should ignores cover with rending. Also I think the Riptide should (fairly) be a T8 model with a rerollable 2++. I think Farsight Should be WS10 and Five wounds with it will not die and eternal warrior - and I also believe that the Ion Cannon should work like a Orbital Barrage heavy 2 Str 10 AP 1 with the shield breaker special rule. I think stealth suits should just have the Hard to hit special rule instead of silly shrouding and stealth. I also think Pathfinders should be T5 and have a 2+ jink save. They should also have twin linked marker lights just in case. Also everything needs a price decrease so we can field more of this stuff. I think Hammerheads and devilfish and piranhas should be flyers

Ethereals should also be ML4 psykers with access to Daemonology

also it would be nice if we could get some close combat prowess. Like...I don't know Fire Warriors WS5 because they're martial arts training or whatever...

THEN - they'd be "balanced"

I mean they are the "greater good" guys after all.. they should just win every game.


edit: just in case.. obviously these suggestions are ott.. just posting for laughs.

FWIW, it's pretty entertaining.

 digital-animal wrote:
I think all Tau should be BS5 and all their weapons should ignores cover with rending. Also I think the Riptide should (fairly) be a T8 model with a rerollable 2++. I think Farsight Should be WS10 and Five wounds with it will not die and eternal warrior - and I also believe that the Ion Cannon should work like a Orbital Barrage heavy 2 Str 10 AP 1 with the shield breaker special rule. I think stealth suits should just have the Hard to hit special rule instead of silly shrouding and stealth. I also think Pathfinders should be T5 and have a 2+ jink save. They should also have twin linked marker lights just in case. Also everything needs a price decrease so we can field more of this stuff. I think Hammerheads and devilfish and piranhas should be flyers

Ethereals should also be ML4 psykers with access to Daemonology

also it would be nice if we could get some close combat prowess. Like...I don't know Fire Warriors WS5 because they're martial arts training or whatever...

THEN - they'd be "balanced"

These suggestions remind me of another thread about balancing a particular army

I mean they are the "greater good" guys after all.. they should just win every game.


edit: just in case.. obviously these suggestions are ott.. just posting for laughs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ DanielBeaver, your suggestions make it out as if Tau are still OP, so I find that to implement all of those would just be silly.

What I would like to see:
- The Smart Missile System is just Assault 3.
- Rail Rifles as Crisis weapon options.
- Failsafe detonator as a normal suit system instead of being a signature system.
- Signature systems are 1/model, so no stacking. The Neuroweb System Jammer should cost 20-25 points.
- An Infantry Wargear list with EMP grenades, blacksun filters, drone controllers, homing beacons, stuff like that.
- Stealth generators (both Shadowsun's and the Stealth Suits') give +3 cover instead of Stealth+Shrouded. Drones bought for these models also gain this bonus, but nobody else.
- The Ethereal (including Aun'va, but not Aun'shi) should be something, like, 30 points more expensive.
- Kroots are back to S4 I4 and they are 8ppm. Sniper rounds are +3 ppm.
- Drone Squadrons are Troops.
- The Devilfish should be around 60-65 points (same cost as a Chimera).
- Fusion Blaster option for every Stealth Suit in a Stealth Team. Also, give the Stealth Team Move Through Cover (and Scouts?). Maybe even a special rule that gives them Stealth+Pinning in the first turn.
- Riptide costs ~200 points. Ion Accelerator costs +20 points and is AP3. Railgun weapon option for +50 points (with S10 Ap1 Armurbane Nova Charge Mode). No option for a Stimulant Injector, but the Shielded Missile Drones are 20ppm.
- Pathfinder weapon options are for -10 points each.
- Neutron Blasters are Assault 2, Vespid Strain Leader can take Neutron Lance (R18" S8 AP3 Assault 1 Lance) for +15 points.
- The Pulse Bomb on the Sunshark Bomber has Apocalyptic Blast, like the Deathstrike missile.
- The Quad Ion Turrent on the Razorshark has Twin-Linked.
- The Heavy Rail Rifles on the Broadsides are Rapid Fire instead of Heavy 1. The High Yield Missile Pods are a +5ppm option.

The NSJ really doesn't have the range to warrant 20 points.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The NSJ really doesn't have the range to warrant 20 points.

When combined with Thrust Move, it does. The NSJ would be cool at 10 points in the hands of, say, an Infantry model.

Do you have good experience with the NSJ? Whenever I use it I either forget about it or it doesn't do anything :(

Also, if drones become troops they should be non-compulsory troops just like for Drone Sentries in IA:3 IMO as drones are awesome and I'd never take FW again if that were an option

I have a massive feeling that the Riptide will be Heldraked in the new codex, probably like how you suggested.

SGTPozy wrote:
Do you have good experience with the NSJ? Whenever I use it I either forget about it or it doesn't do anything :(

Yeah, I have. It usually does more damage to the enemy than my Commander . IIRC, my most ridiculous kill with it was a Land Raider.

SGTPozy wrote:

Also, if drones become troops they should be non-compulsory troops just like for Drone Sentries in IA:3 IMO as drones are awesome and I'd never take FW again if that were an option

I would just make Drones non-scoring. The point of Drone Squadrons as Troops is that you can make a full-JSJ army.

Speaking of which, three points are missing from the above list:
- Stealth Team maximum size is up to 12.
- Fire Warrior Team maximum size is up to 24.
- Fire Warriors have a Combat-Squad-like special rule that allows them to break down to 4/8/12-model units.

Seriusly, once you called the NSJ worth 20 points, I lost faith in the post and stopped reading.

Its active in the ENEMY turn, so JSJ is not even relevant. in fact its in a way a negative.

Its only making the guys really close to you damage themselves a bit, the crisis suit mantra is never to allow people to get as close to you.

Even in its current 2 point price, its a point filler choice, not something you actually give anything up for.

5, Id still take it. 10, MAYBE, 20? it will never, ever, ever be taken.



And drones ARE non-scoring. as long its just drones.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Its active in the ENEMY turn, so JSJ is not even relevant. in fact its in a way a negative.

I was talking about Thrust Move, and not JSJ. The point is that you can get close to a shooty unit, and then almost shut them down because you are such a cool guy. Bonus points if you do this in Turn 1 (entirely possible with some good Thrust Move rolls), when they can't charge you even if they want.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And drones ARE non-scoring. as long its just drones.

I mean, I would make them non-scoring 4life. And not non-scoring-until-IC-happens.

As a controversial idea, remove the Ignores Cover part of Markerlights entirely and replace it with an additional +1 to BS. As such, each Markerlight would buff BS by 2, but Cover would not be completely pointless against the most shooting-centric army in the game.

That would be.. odd. Not necessarily bad, but certainly different.

That would be absurdly annoying. far more than ignoring cover.

It would make a random odd markerlight hidden in a squad a massive threat, as it can instantly bumb anything to BS5.

It will also make real marker units completely slowed, as there will be no reason to EVER bother to score more than a pair of marks on a single target.

And than you'll need to give tau a new array of actually cover ignoring weapons, as they got practically none naturally.

You will cause far more problems than fixing any.



Switching back to "1 mark, -1 cover", I can get behind. will require a bit of changes to make work without crippling tau (like giving pathfinders their 4+ back), but outright removing it would delete one of the few things that make tau, tau.

Or reduce the range to 24"? That way they need to.move and can't camp in the same piece of terrain from start to finish? Orrrr make them like devistators and such, each are armed with a pulse carbine but 4 may switch their guns out for a markerlight for +5 pts or somthing?

SGTPozy wrote:

@ DanielBeaver, your suggestions make it out as if Tau are still OP, so I find that to implement all of those would just be silly.

Well... Yes, I do think they're still overpowered. Especially compared to the recent codex.

Making a HEAVY weapon that is used by a T3 5+ unit a 24" range?

Are you not seeing the obvious flaw with that plan?

The cost more than fire warriors to begin with, despite inferior armor. what the point in making them pay yet again to upgrade to have markerlights when the entire purpose of the unit to begin with is to use markerlights?

 total0 wrote:
Or reduce the range to 24"? That way they need to.move and can't camp in the same piece of terrain from start to finish? Orrrr make them like devistators and such, each are armed with a pulse carbine but 4 may switch their guns out for a markerlight for +5 pts or somthing?

Fluff wise, pathfinders are supposed to "camp in the same piece of terrain" as they are the scouts for the army, providing support for the other units. They are the recon team for the Tau, they just happen to be useful during the actual battle unlike other armies' recon teams. IMO, they should gain infiltrate if they get the range reduced and making them like devastators would also be unfluffy. I personally don't like how they can take upgrade guns like rail rifles etc as it doesn't make sense to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

@ DanielBeaver, your suggestions make it out as if Tau are still OP, so I find that to implement all of those would just be silly.

Well... Yes, I do think they're still overpowered. Especially compared to the recent codex.

Fair enough, so what do you think of SW, SM, Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, AM and AS? Tau aren't half as bad nowadays as they were in 6th with those awfully nooby things that they could do.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Making a HEAVY weapon that is used by a T3 5+ unit a 24" range?

Are you not seeing the obvious flaw with that plan?

The cost more than fire warriors to begin with, despite inferior armor. what the point in making them pay yet again to upgrade to have markerlights when the entire purpose of the unit to begin with is to use markerlights?

Wow simmer down their buddy, im entitled to my opinion. I came up with a suggestion instead of removing them like some other dude suggested.

My opinion is that the ability to remove coversaves wouldnt be half bad if the army didnt have such open access to it so came up with an idea to reduce the range OR pay for the upgrade like a devistator

 total0 wrote:

My opinion is that the ability to remove coversaves wouldnt be half bad if the army didnt have such open access to it so came up with an idea to reduce the range OR pay for the upgrade like a devistator

In fact, the army has limited access to markerlights: marker drones, pathfinders, some random units with very limited access (Sky Rays, Sun Sharks, Fireblades, FW/stealth team leaders)... and that's it. Any maybe Tetras. Out of these, Pathfinders and Tetras are easy to remove, Marker Drones are BS2, and the others should feel lucky if they can get even one counter on the target.

I dont see how the ability to fill up your FA section on markerlights is a lack of access to it but ok? Idunderstand if they had to compete with riptides or crisis suits but i only ever see pathfinders used.

There is also the buff master with drones combo.
Skyrays can markerlights fliers allowing hh to shoot more reliably or strip the jink save if hits twice.

 total0 wrote:
I dont see how the ability to fill up your FA section on markerlights is a lack of access to it but ok?

The problem is with the fact that you must fill up your FA section to get a decent number of markerlights.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 total0 wrote:
I dont see how the ability to fill up your FA section on markerlights is a lack of access to it but ok?

The problem is with the fact that you must fill up your FA section to get a decent number of markerlights.

So there is no lack of access? So my point is made :p.

Also you're starting to sound like a gk player and maxing out on dk haha dugh dum dish

It does suck how we can't really operate without markerlights now. <sigh>

 total0 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 total0 wrote:
I dont see how the ability to fill up your FA section on markerlights is a lack of access to it but ok?

The problem is with the fact that you must fill up your FA section to get a decent number of markerlights.

So there is no lack of access?

Just try to take an usable amount of markerlight without the FA section, and you will see .

Or not having them killed when somebody looks at their general direction.

Sesiuly, I don't get how people make such a fuss about pathfinders.
They are an expensive guardsman, they do not survive until turn 3 against a semi-competent opponent.

You are looking to nerf something that is not even considered competitive, look at NOVA 2014, a single tau list in top 16, not a single pathfinder in it, just the "commander+suits+drones" setup, a SINGLE target gets marked every turn, no more. a SINGLE unit that it's cover gets ignored and is blasted with high accuracy. for a huge investment.
Bay area? a single tau in top 10, again no pathfinders and just a single drone squad to accompany a commander.

I challenge you to find me a single top-table list that actually has pathfinders in it, or any other dedicated marker unit that is not under the specific HQ+drones setup with a single such unit, there isn't. markers are not that great.


Its so easy to panic over an ability your army does not have, but when the competitive scene answers by simply not even taking that ability, you can hardly argue that it's overpowered and need the insane nerfs thrown around here. most of them would render the marker units not even casual worthy.

SGTPozy wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

@ DanielBeaver, your suggestions make it out as if Tau are still OP, so I find that to implement all of those would just be silly.

Well... Yes, I do think they're still overpowered. Especially compared to the recent codex.

Fair enough, so what do you think of SW, SM, Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, AM and AS? Tau aren't half as bad nowadays as they were in 6th with those awfully nooby things that they could do.

Eldar needs a huge nerf bat all across the board.
SM needs some specific nerfs (Bikes, Gravguns, Grav Cents). I feel that Tau and SM are similar in power level, and have similar problems - good generally, but with some clearly overpowered units and rules in the codex.

The rest of the armies you mentioned I think are basically fine.

Removing Eldar as Battle Brothers was the only nerf Tau needed and that happened in 7th Ed.

Maybe we should instead be talking about how to buff lists without FMCs, SM/Eldar bikers, or Wave Serpents.

I like playing 40k, not just asembling models, and I'd play Orks if they had a halfway decent codex.

Marker light hits should allow cover save.

Ethereal's command radius should be 6'

Vespids: maybe something like a 2d6 s4 ap- ignore cover nova power the turn they arrive via deepstriking. But that's up to debate - i'm not very familliar with their fluff and if it's reasonable or not.

Krootoxes need a slight buff.

Agree on the other stuff proposed by the op except for the hammerhead. It's a reasonable tank that just pales compared to the firepower provided by suits.