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Markerlights allowing cover saves is absurd and will make it completely useless. we already summerised that people hardly use markers in top tier lists as it is, nerfing it further is absurd.


WHY should ethreal command radius be 6"? 12" isn't huge, and he comes with a heavy drawback.

Vespid-the logic behing giving them a nova is? I know they need a buff, but that's totally random.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Markerlights allowing cover saves is absurd and will make it completely useless. we already summerised that people hardly use markers in top tier lists as it is, nerfing it further is absurd.


WHY should ethreal command radius be 6"? 12" isn't huge, and he comes with a heavy drawback.

Vespid-the logic behing giving them a nova is? I know they need a buff, but that's totally random.

Markerlights can't light through a wall or tree. And even through thick fog, for example. That's a targeting system that needs to hit first.

Cause 12' radius is actually huge.

That was just some random idea about vespids. Fast unit with deepstrike. Squishy for mellee and not good enough at shooting compared to other stuff in the book => must have something unique to utilise that doesn't explictly rely on combat abilities. And if you haven't noticed yet, it's a game with a ton of dice rolls. It should be random. And your main duty as a general is to make decisions with risks in mind. Otherwise, you've got something like calculator wars.

Speaking of Vespids, what about some sort of Objective Denied special rule? Like, they deny objectives further away (8-12"?) and they deny even against Objective Secured units.

Tau are fine just the way they are.

The 12" ethereal power would better suit models within the range get the bonus not unit, because the way it is is open to exploitation, I'll keep this one model within range so i get all the buffs. Really should be faq'd to be like tyranids and orks in the way that it works, thoughts?

Who thinks that Supportive Fire will become a command benefit? I could see this and it would dis encourage going unbound.


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 total0 wrote:
The 12" ethereal power would better suit models within the range get the bonus not unit, because the way it is is open to exploitation, I'll keep this one model within range so i get all the buffs. Really should be faq'd to be like tyranids and orks in the way that it works, thoughts?

That works for stubborn, extra shot at half range, feel no pain, but what about running and snap shotting? Would only those in 6" be able to snap shot after running? If so, that ability would become even less useful.

In my opinion, the extra VP balances the powers, especially since Ethereals only have 2W and no armour.

 koooaei wrote:
That was just some random idea about vespids. Fast unit with deepstrike. Squishy for mellee and not good enough at shooting compared to other stuff in the book => must have something unique to utilise that doesn't explictly rely on combat abilities. And if you haven't noticed yet, it's a game with a ton of dice rolls. It should be random. And your main duty as a general is to make decisions with risks in mind. Otherwise, you've got something like calculator wars.

Alternatively, what about simply giving them grenades - either as an option or by default? Maybe even the option for a grenade launcher armed with Photon and EMP grenades?

Vesipids could be turned into nice H+R CC units. Flufwise, their claws are discribed as being "hard as diamond," so that would probebly be at least AP4, it not 3. Give them a few attacks, and an increase in I, and they would be pretty good.

 gmaleron wrote:
Tau are fine just the way they are.

No they're not. Vespids are trash, and there's a couple of other units (both fliers, Devilfish etc.) that could use some help too. The fact that the best units are really good doesn't mean the Codex is OK.

Vespid are wonderful, in the right environment.

That environment is not the standard 40k game, but combat partols, cities of death and zone mortalis.

Its alright for a unit to be specialized at specific game types.

It's little changes that need to be made and the Codex will be fine.

Riptide shouldn't have access to a potential 3+ invulnerable and FNP, on top of a 2+ armour save. Ion Accelerator is also undercosted. FNP is fine, you are paying a fair bit for more durability.

The HYMP Broadsides are also undercosted IMO.

Markerlights need a bit of work, but not too much. Maybe 3 to remove Cover Saves, or expend 1 Markerlight to reduce the cover save by 1, or only allow one use of markerlights (ie, remove cover or increase BS, not noth).
They also shouldn't increase BS on Overwatch, only Snapshots, like against Flyers.

Personal gripe is the Buffmander, but I doubt GW intended for it to be used the way it is used.

While we are nerfing some units, we need to buff the mediocre units, such as Vespids, so that the Codex is balanced and that each model is equally viable.

Actually, the riptide's FnP is also too cheap. should be at least 5 more point, if not 10.

I won't cover the shopping list of reasons why the IA is absurd again.


HYMP is too good, HRR is not good enough. and broadsides stats do not fit the model.
Soultion? give them T5, and make HYMP a 10 point upgrade on the HRR. HRR become good due to increased durability, HYMP becomes expensive enough to to be spammed.
Or make T5, increase base cost by 10 and buff the HRR.
(do note that oblits, with similar defensive stats pay only 6 points for that 1 T via MoN, therefor 10 points and +1T is probably overcosting, therefor a nerf.)



The buffmander, is actually not an issue now that allied and riptide shenanigans are no longer legal. people hardly run these systems any more outside of a farsight bomb, who is not exactly top tier.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually, the riptide's FnP is also too cheap. should be at least 5 more point, if not 10.

The FnP shouldn't be an option for the Riptide in the first place.

Agreed FnP on any MC is just a bit..... over the top

Tell that to my Talosi! I'd say FNP makes perfect sense on most MC's, the problem is that the Riptide shouldn't of been a Monstrous Creature in the first place...

Again we come back to the "should/not be a MC"
Its a natural evolution from the crisis suit, as the varius battlesuits are not walkers riptides should not be walkers

Suits cant be walkers because having your standard HQ as a vehicle is a bad idea (and enclaves all-walker armies would be annoying as feth)
Having basic units immune to small arms fire is a bad decision for game balance.


Now, given that FnP is available to suits (and always was) there is no reason to exclude the riptide. he just needs proper pricing for that. the current is a bit too low. was it slightly more highly priced, or was the riptide not as though to begin with (like the 109 is a bit more fragile), it would have been fair totally fine.


As for FnP on MCs in general-is there really a reason why its OTT like jager claims? because I hardly see a unit MORE deserving than a MC.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Now, given that FnP is available to suits (and always was) there is no reason to exclude the riptide.

There is quite a difference between an average suit and a Riptide in terms of "eating painkillers". An average suit is barely bigger than the Tau piloting it, so it makes sense that most hits affect the pilot somehow and he can eat a pill to recover and go on. On the other hand, the Riptide is more like a huge creature all by itself that also happens to have a pilot. Damage on, say, its arms probably won't affect the pilot even by the slightest.

FNP could be a swarm of tiny repair bots (fluff-wise the tau do have those, and use them on vehicles), as well as the life saving stuff they have normally.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FNP could be a swarm of tiny repair bots (fluff-wise the tau do have those, and use them on vehicles), as well as the life saving stuff they have normally.

Although that would be cool FNP for TAU is called Stimulant Injectors so fluffwise it wouldn't make sense for it to be repair bots.

LouisRuin wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FNP could be a swarm of tiny repair bots (fluff-wise the tau do have those, and use them on vehicles), as well as the life saving stuff they have normally.

Although that would be cool FNP for TAU is called Stimulant Injectors so fluffwise it wouldn't make sense for it to be repair bots.

You don't think they might install different versions of stuff on different suits?

It is my sincerest hope that Riptides become "Jetpack Walkers" in the next codex.

As well, I feel something absolutely needs to be done about HYMP broadsides. Something I'd love to see is a point increase, and then also prohibiting support systems to be taken.

Finally, the secondary weapons on the HH need to be looked at. As of right now, there is no reason whatsoever to take the burst cannons instead of the SMS.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

LouisRuin wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FNP could be a swarm of tiny repair bots (fluff-wise the tau do have those, and use them on vehicles), as well as the life saving stuff they have normally.

Although that would be cool FNP for TAU is called Stimulant Injectors so fluffwise it wouldn't make sense for it to be repair bots.

You don't think they might install different versions of stuff on different suits?

They probably would but for me to think of it as a different function it would need to have a different name.

To be Honest i don't think that the Tau Codex is too unbalanced.

However I do think that Vespid don't really serve any purpose that isn't already handled by other units/models.

The ideas I have:
HH and SR burst cannons sperate, and SMS cost more (with a possible base points decrease for the upgrade ), thus a tradeoff of the SMS's extened range, TL and complete ignoreing of all cover, with double shots.

Complete redo on vespids, they currently serve little purpose in the current game, maybe turn them into a Hit and Run CC unit?

Make IA cost more, and mess with the prices of support systems for riptide.

Give HRR Armourbane, or give braodsises with them tankhunter (something like that)

Stealthsuits:
a. make them cheaper
b. mess around their options
and/or
c. change their slot

Return markerlights to what they were origonally (-1 cover per, but also option to decrease Ld for that turn, as to make it easier to break squads).

What are peoples opinions on Piranhas?

They seem good for the points if you use them as tank hunters

I have a though for buffing HRR and Railguns:

For Railguns:
To pen rolls of a 6 results in +2 to the damage results table (so explosion on a 3+)
To pen rolls of a 5 results in +1 to the damage results table (so explosion on a 4+)

For HRR:
To pen rolls of a 6 results in +1 to the damage results table.

Maybe against heavy vehicles there is a -1 modifier, so only a pen roll of a 6 for Railgun becomes like HRR or something.

Thoughts?

Give HRR tank hunter, or it takes off 2 hp instead of one, but only against ground targets.

Increase cost of Broadsides by 10 points.

Make SMS upgrade on HH cost 10 pts.

Also, maybe have SMS either ignore cover, or ignore line of sight, but not both at the same time.

Give Vespids Furious Charge so people finally understand how you're supposed to use them

Hunam0001 wrote:
Give HRR tank hunter, or it takes off 2 hp instead of one, but only against ground targets.

Increase cost of Broadsides by 10 points.

Make SMS upgrade on HH cost 10 pts.

Also, maybe have SMS either ignore cover, or ignore line of sight, but not both at the same time.

Give Vespids Furious Charge so people finally understand how you're supposed to use them

Yeah.

I haven't actually played yet. But it seems clear to me by looking at their statline that Vespids are meant to be a harrassment unit used to support other units. So you have, say, a group of tac marines. You fire at them with a swuad of fire warriors, and send your vespids over to support. Next turn, you have some scouts to deal with elsewhere on the board, and vespids can zip over there to help your kroot take care of them. They're meant to shoot, then charge in, then hit and run out, hopefully into cover.

That's why they're built the way they are, usable against a wide variety of targets in either shooting or melee but not good enough to wipe out any squad on their own. Hence their gun is good enough to take out marines, but has a RoF too low to take out a squad on their own, or do appreciably better against weaker hordes like IG. Their melee, combined with Hammer of Wrath, is also good enough to damage most things but, again, not good enough to take out much of anything on their own.

They're based around speed and versatility, not killing power. They're not, say, some kind of failed anti-MEQ.

Supporting Fire compensates the Tau for having no real melee capability. Markerlights compensate the Tau for not having huge numbers of guns to bring to bear. Ethereals do a variety of things that buff troops so that there is an element of unpredictability about Tau capabilities.

Take away any of those three and you just doled out a broad nerf with no regard for the point of why they have such capabilities in the first place. Essentially just whinging that the Tau don't play fair.

Complaints about markerlights are particularly annoying. They've been pretty much just as good for their entire existence, except now they're on useful platforms. In fact, some of their capability has been removed in the latest codex.

Points adjustments to some things seem the best option, perhaps with an FOC reshuffle for some units like Riptides and Stealthsuits. That said, with 7th, the severely broken stuff is all gone and the Codex is now very well balanced. Powerful, sure, but people having a good whinge about that isn't reason enough to go poking holes in it.


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And the railgun nerf was necessary. Broadsides pumping out triple S10 AP1 shots, twinlinked? I exploited the gak out of that before the last codex, and I can tell you, it was one of the few things about the old codex that needed a kick in the teeth. Big monsters and vehicles just melted away before the railgun/Stabilisation System combo. Poke your suits around the corner, and give the enemy both barrels.

I think the issue people have with the railgun nerf on Broadsides has more to do with the fact that High Yeild Missle Pods are so much better than the current HRR.

However, there is no way they can go back to being S10 Ap1. It was a little over powered before, but it would absolutely insane now with the option to have Skyfire.