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Statistically, the HYMP is inferior to the HRR against AP2 and/or T8, and the latter has much longer range.

While this is true, the fact of the matter is that there's not a whole lot that is T8 or up, with a 2+ Sv.

I'm still in the camp that HYMP is undercosted as a free upgrade.

Hunam0001 wrote:
While this is true, the fact of the matter is that there's not a whole lot that is T8 or up, with a 2+ Sv.

I'm still in the camp that HYMP is undercosted as a free upgrade.

Well, 2+ arnour save OR T8. So Tyrannofexes, Wraithknights, Megaarmoured Nobs. Some other stuff as well.

Not a huge amount of stuff, but it is there.


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It will also ID T4.


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Hah. Looking at the math, against most MCs, an equivalent number of points of sniper drones within RF range beats both weapons!

I don't think having HYMP as a costed upgrade would do much to dissuade the use of them. It seems a trivial complaint.

And there are enough >T4 with 3+/2+ saves out there to consider Broadsides over HYMP in the first place.

Yeah, Sniper Drones are awesome now.

Personally, I've been using HRR Broadsides with a Velocity tracker as AA, and find them pretty effectively in this role.

I also find that the static nature of Broadsides means that they're rarely facing elite unites such as Meganobs, Wraithknights, etc.

I still think that the combo of a points cost, and taking up the support system slot, would go a long way towards putting the HYMP on par with the HRR.

Also, on an unrelated note, does anyone else feel like Vespids maybe need assault grenades?

I don't think the problem is the Tau Codex, it's more the fact that there's a lot of melee units in the game that have no chance in hell of getting into melee, essentially making the "weakness" to assault the Tau have moot.

The Riptide can go melt itself to slag for all I care for it though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I don't think the problem is the Tau Codex, it's more the fact that there's a lot of melee units in the game that have no chance in hell of getting into melee, essentially making the "weakness" to assault the Tau have moot.

The Riptide can go melt itself to slag for all I care for it though.

Well, "melee units" in this context means pretty much "every unit." You don't need to be a dedicated melee unit to beat Tau in melee. Guardsmen will do it, unless the Tau blind them.


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Which makes me wonder who will win statistically if you start equal points values of Firewarriors and Guardsmen 30" apart and just have the Guardsmen charge forward. I think I might figure that at.

Alcibiades wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I don't think the problem is the Tau Codex, it's more the fact that there's a lot of melee units in the game that have no chance in hell of getting into melee, essentially making the "weakness" to assault the Tau have moot.

The Riptide can go melt itself to slag for all I care for it though.

Well, "melee units" in this context means pretty much "every unit." You don't need to be a dedicated melee unit to beat Tau in melee. Guardsmen will do it, unless the Tau blind them.

You still have to get there though, and there aren't exactly a massive amount of non-melee units with extreme mobility.

Tau are fine people complain about the marker light but honestly it is our psyhic phase. Tau have NO ACCESS to psychic powers. So our base units are going to be a little stronger. Space marines have the chance of getting ignore cover, twin link, invis, the list goes on and on. Tau don't have access to an entire portion of the game, we don't have the option to hand out a 4++ to some random unit so feel no pain on a Riptide is fine. People talk about of broken the TAU are but they aren't. They are inline with a lot of codex's now like,, SM and AM.

About the markerlights being the tau psyker phase, its nothing really like it :p, at least in the Psyker phase you can dtw while you get no such defence against a markerlight

It's still a good comparison. The tau have no access to psychic abilities, they have markers instead..

Markerlights aren't really like psychic abilities, mostly because they are random (apart from prescience which SHOULD NOT be a primaris power) and can be denied (like total0 said).

Markerlights just help Tau shoot well in order to give them a powerful strength. Tau have more weaknesses than other armies as they have no psykers and only one item that can give them some psychic defence, and are awful in combat.

It just so happens that the past two editions favour the Tau's strength (shooting), so just wait until the edition changes and something else becomes the main focus such as psykers being uttely OP or combat being super-awesome, then people will finally stop all of the hating towards us.

 total0 wrote:
About the markerlights being the tau psyker phase, its nothing really like it :p, at least in the Psyker phase you can dtw while you get no such defence against a markerlight

They also can't grant rerollable saves or kill models.

whatever you say on OP, vets are not any where near orig guardsmen, my vets are used better and are more pts than 10 space marines

Sargow wrote:
Tau have NO ACCESS to psychic powers.

So what? Functionally, most armies have little to no psychic phase.

Markerlights don't compensate for a lack of psychic powers, they overcompensate.

Well, mathematically, Tau generally actually underperform in shooting compared to equal points of roughly equivalent units in other armies (fire warriors vs. guardsmen or bolter marines, for instance). At least as long as the latter can get into range.

They are thus built around markerlights, or some other force multiplication factor (which is why they have so many of them).

Alcibiades isn't wrong.

The Tau don't have enough guns to compensate them for their sucky BS in a world of bigger armies, coversaves, etc.
- Giving them the guns would turn them into the Guard.
- Giving them higher BS would be even more broken than what they have now because it would grant absolute reliability and greater points efficiency.

Compare those options with the following: you need to select a platform (for points), then keep them alive, then keep them in range & LOS of preferred targets, then roll to hit with the things. Not to mention that the benefits do not accrue across the whole army automatically for hitting.

So, again, talk about markerlights as "overcompensating" is ridiculous. Without them, many many Tau lists and units would be ridiculously underpowered for the job they're supposed to do. I'm sure given the improvements in other areas of the codex, they wouldn't sink to the level of unplayability seen in 5th Ed, but the variety of competitive lists would drop significantly. Draining all flavour from the army entirely.

Hmm, now that I've done the math, I see that I was wrong. It looks like Guardsmen beat Firewarriors (unless they are in 13-15" or 25-30" range), but Firewarriors beat bolter marines.

Is my math wrong somewhere here?

I'm pegging the cost of a GM at 4 points, assuming that the Sarge costs a bit more than the others even though his price isn't explicitly in the codex..

Equal points of FW and GM:

4 FW vs. 9 GM

FW: 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 4 = 20/12 = 2,08 = 1.67 dead GM (about 1/6 of total)

GM: 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 x 9 = 1 1/8 = 1.12 dead FW (over 1/4 of total)

Equal points of FW and bolter marines:

14 FW vs. 9 BM

FW: 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 1/9 = x 14 = 14/9 = 1.56 dead BM (about 1/6 of total)

BW: 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2/9 x 9 = 18/9 = 2 dead FW (about 1/7 of total)

Sargow wrote:
Tau are fine people complain about the marker light but honestly it is our psyhic phase. Tau have NO ACCESS to psychic powers. So our base units are going to be a little stronger. Space marines have the chance of getting ignore cover, twin link, invis, the list goes on and on. Tau don't have access to an entire portion of the game, we don't have the option to hand out a 4++ to some random unit so feel no pain on a Riptide is fine. People talk about of broken the TAU are but they aren't. They are inline with a lot of codex's now like,, SM and AM.

Deny The Marker.