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2014/10/25 18:45:55
Subject: Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Grey Templar wrote: A .22 can definitely still pass through a persons body. Its less likely to do so with killing force, only because it has little killing force to begin with, but its still possible. And its definitely still capable of causing serious injury.
A .22 LR sure, but not a .22 Short.
Even a short can still pass through a human body.
Or are you willing to stand behind a ballistics gel dummy and let someone unload a bunch of .22 shorts into it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 18:46:29
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Unjacketed hollow-points would work, if paired with a small caliber service weapon.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Lots of departments have Tasers, but a Taser is not a replacement for a firearm considering the maximum range of one is 35 feet.
No NYPD service pistol has an effective range beyond ~190 feet, and most users would not be able to fire accurately at anywhere near that range; even if they trained regularly. The limitation of the 35 foot range seems reasonable regardless of overpenetration.
dogma wrote: Unjacketed hollow-points would work, if paired with a small caliber service weapon.
Unjacketed ammunition is not ideal for semiautomatic handguns and a number of popular service firearms do not work well without modification. Besides, most police departments use JHP ammunition, including the NYPD (they use Speer Gold Dot, 124-grain hollow-point and are not permitted to carry .40 or .45-caliber firearms).
You also didn't answer the question. What firearm and ammunition should the police use (or not use, because you think Tasers are a better option)?
No NYPD service pistol has an effective range beyond ~190 feet, and most users would not be able to fire accurately at anywhere near that range; even if they trained regularly. The limitation of the 35 foot range seems reasonable regardless of overpenetration.
Until there is a threat at 36 feet.
It's just plain foolish to say that reducing the ability to for an officer to engage a target beyond 35 feet is a reasonable trade-off to prevent over-penetration of a target. Unless of course the officer switches to a long rifle for any threat greater than 35', or should we take those away too because they bullet might pass through the suspect and strike a bystander as well?
That's a false choice. No one would ever do that when they have option of putting a second b-gel dummy behind the first.
So your answer is no?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 19:47:29
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/25 20:23:45
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Ouze wrote: I While police officers in general are famously bad shots,
That's not entirely true or fair - in a combat situation practically everybody is a bad shot, unless they have a serious amount of experience, training, or a combination of the two. The average combat accuracy for infantrymen in even professional well-trained armies is pretty poor. There's a massive difference between being a good shot on the range and then being able to translate that into shooting accurately in a combat situation, especially - and here's the kicker - a situation that occurs spontaneously.
In a spontaneous incident the first thing that's going to happen is that your body will have a hefty dose of adrenalin dumped into your system. Although there are up sides to this one of the major down sides is that fine motor control takes a serious hit, which obviously doesn't bode well for accuracy. There are also other side effects including tunnel vision which isn't going to do much for your situational awareness.
This in part explains some of the issues with accuracy in police shootings because in the US a lot of these shootings occur completely out-of-the-blue and the officers involved have to go from 'I have to speak to this motorist because he has a tail light out' to 'he's pulled a gun and now I have to pull mine and shoot him before he kills me' in the space of a few seconds. In the most recent incident in the New York the four officers - all of whom had about three months in the job - were getting a group photo taken for a tourist when a crazy guy with an axe attacked them. That's pretty much about as spontaneous as you can get. The fact that it occurred on a street in daytime in a highly-populated urban area makes the situation even more complex - bearing in mind that if a guy with an axe has just hacked open the heads of one of your colleagues and he's now trying to do the same to you your focus is going to be pretty much entirely on him.
In the UK firearms police seem to be much more accurate, however they very rarely are involved in the same kinds of incidents that officers in the US are - the vast majority of the time armed police here will have forewarning that they are attending an incident that might involve a firearm or other lethal weapon and they'll have the chance to mentally prepare for it which will make a massive difference.
The whole problem with having a regularly armed police force as opposed to a small number of dedicated specialist firearms officers is that you have a conundrum - the level of proficiency with firearms is going to increase with the amount of time and money you invest, however the more time and money you invest in that area means you have less time and money to invest in doing actual police work - answering calls, working a beat, catching criminals and all the other sundry situations a police officer deals with on a day to day basis. To make it worse all the time and money you invest in firearms training is going towards preparing them for an event that has a statistically very low likelihood of occurring - page four on this pdf https://cvpcs.asu.edu/sites/default/files/content/projects/hitting%20target%20article_0.pdf states that for an NYPD officer to be statistically expected to shoot and kill a suspect once in their career they would have to serve for 694 years.
Whilst I think departments like the NYPD should be tightening up on firearms training the harsh truth is that mistakes are going to happen because people aren't perfect and shooting incidents are extremely stressful and dynamic events that even advanced military training can't guarantee success in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 20:25:48
"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting the ultimate practitioner."
Cormac McCarthy
2014/10/25 21:49:47
Subject: Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well Police officers are famous for being bad shots even on a range.
Sure, people become bad shots in real combat, but training does effect your accuracy. Police officers are conspicuously poor shots when they shouldn't really be, relatively speaking.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Unjacketed ammunition is not ideal for semiautomatic handguns and a number of popular service firearms do not work well without modification.
Then those firearms should be modified, or cease to be general service firearms.
Besides, most police departments use JHP ammunition, including the NYPD (they use Speer Gold Dot, 124-grain hollow-point and are not permitted to carry .40 or .45-caliber firearms).
.40s and .45s are essentially 9mm's (all that NYPD are allowed to carry on duty), and 9mm Speer Gold Dot hollow-points have been shown to overpenetrate when fired from all the 9mm handguns used in general service by the NYPD.
It's just plain foolish to say that reducing the ability to for an officer to engage a target beyond 35 feet is a reasonable trade-off to prevent over-penetration of a target.
How so? Thirty-five feet is a significant distance, not only for an accurate engagement, but also for a closing run.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 22:11:11
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/10/25 22:40:33
Subject: Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Hmmm... I think the US needs to revise its threat priority. Islamic terrorists are not the number one threat to the American people. It seems the American police is a threat far more dangerous. May I suggest drone strikes?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 22:40:59
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2014/10/25 22:54:54
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
dogma wrote: Then those firearms should be modified, or cease to be general service firearms.
Yep, that'll fix it.
.40s and .45s are essentially 9mm's (all that NYPD are allowed to carry on duty), and 9mm Speer Gold Dot hollow-points have been shown to overpenetrate when fired from all the 9mm handguns used in general service by the NYPD.
Sources? Or just another one of you unsubstantiated claims that you have nothing to back up?
You didn't ask a question.
I asked you if officers should only carry firearms chambered in .22 Short, you replied with, "Other round and firearm combinations are available," I asked you to enlighten everyone, to which you replied, "Unjacketed hollow-points would work, if paired with a small caliber service weapon." That isn't an answer, it's a deflection.
So I'll ask you again since I know you need things perfectly spelled out for you to the every letter: if arming officers with .22 Short isn't the solution, than what specifically should officers carry? Or should they just switch to unjacketed hollow point ammunition? And where will they the money to either buy a nonstandard ammunition or the aftermarket parts to upgrade all existing service firearms that don't work well with unjacketed ammunition? Also,you've made both claims and they clearly can't do both, so which is it?
How so? Thirty-five feet is a significant distance, not only for an accurate engagement, but also for a closing run.
Because "closing runs" are all officers have to deal with, right?
Unsurprisingly, you also didn't answer my question about officers using long rifles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 23:42:47
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/25 22:58:38
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Screw it. Meet incapacitate halfway with lethality
Rubber rounds
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/10/25 23:37:30
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
They should carry star trek phasers, they can go from "stun" to "vaporise" and anything in between. Show me a better weapon.
Judge Dredd voice-activated ammunition selectors?
No....I highly disagree
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/10/26 02:20:10
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
I see the NYPD has, as per their standard operating procedure, managed to shoot another innocent bystander.
#onlycopsshouldhaveguns and of course #trainedprofessionalswithglockfotays
And to remove all ambiguity, note that my issue is with the lack of training and critical thinking skills, not with the firearms themselves. I carried a backpack full of hand grenades and still managed not to kill anybody by accident.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/26 02:23:40
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Sources? Or just another one of you unsubstantiated claims that you have nothing to back up?
The NYPD uses 9mm Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints, and has managed to injure or kill bystanders due to what is likely overpenetration after switching to that round.
So I'll ask you again since I know you need things perfectly spelled out for you to the every letter: if arming officers with .22 Short isn't the solution, than what specifically should officers carry? Or should they just switch to unjacketed hollow point ammunition? And where will they the money to either buy a nonstandard ammunition or the aftermarket parts to upgrade all existing service firearms that don't work well with unjacketed ammunition? Also,you've made both claims and they clearly can't do both, so which is it?
One of the two, obviously. I've not made a specific claim regarding what should be done, I've only suggested solutions to an existing problem.
The NYPD uses 9mm Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints, and has managed to injure or kill bystanders due to what is likely overpenetration after switching to that round.
That is your "proof?" A news brief of one instance? Are you even trying?
One of the two, obviously. I've not made a specific claim regarding what should be done, I've only suggested solutions to an existing problem.
But which is it? I'm just holding you to the same standard you hold to everyone else: you can't just float out three different solutions to your problem and not pick one. So what is your solution? All police are issued .22 Short ammunition? Other caliber/firearm combinations (oh which you haven't suggested any, despite being asked more than once)? Or taking all guns away from officers and giving them Tasers?
Not at all, its just the sort of thing an officer is likely to deal with in the course of general policing.
Statistics to back that up, or are you going to just link a throwaway Fox News brief? Also, what is "general policing?
It was a pointless question, as we are discussing general policing; which does not involve the use of long rifles.
Sure they do. While not necessarily on their person at all times, lots of officers carry long rifles and/or shotguns in their vehicles. So to claim that "general policing" (a pretty nebulous term) doesn't include anything other than handguns isn't accurate.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/26 12:51:03
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
But which is it? I'm just holding you to the same standard you hold to everyone else: you can't just float out three different solutions to your problem and not pick one.
Yes I can, because I don't need to. I'm not in a position to dictate what the NYPD does, all I can do is float possible solutions to problems I perceive; same as you.
The policing that is done by officers who either walk, or drive, a beat in the course of their general day. So not officers that are called in to deal with special situations, the sort of officers that nearly every department in a major city employs.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Sure they do. While not necessarily on their person at all times, lots of officers carry long rifles and/or shotguns in their vehicles. So to claim that "general policing" (a pretty nebulous term) doesn't include anything other than handguns isn't accurate.
I never claimed that general policing only included handguns. I only claimed that it did not involve long rifles, a category which does not include carbines or any assault rifles; weapons which many officers do carry in their vehicles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/26 12:55:42
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/10/26 13:02:02
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Yes I can, because I don't need to. I'm not in a position to dictate what the NYPD does, all I can do is float possible solutions; same as you.
Oh you can, can you? How surprising.
I never suggested that.
You specifically said that the 35' range of a Taser is reasonable in comparison to the risk of penetrating the target with a round. That isn't an endorsement?
The policing that is done by officers who either walk, or drive, a beat in the course of their general day. So not officers that are called in to deal with special situations, the sort of people that nearly every department in a major city employs.
And officers often carry long guns in their vehicles while on a beat.
I never claimed that general policing only included handguns. I only claimed that it did not involve long guns; a category which does not include carbines or any assault rifles.
Any weapon that can be fired from the shoulder is a long gun, which includes rifles, carbines, and shotguns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/26 13:03:04
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/26 13:11:45
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: You specifically said that the 35' range of a Taser is reasonable in comparison to the risk of penetrating the target with a round. That isn't an endorsement?
It is, but it isn't exclusive. I never claimed that police should carry Tasers exclusively.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Any weapon that can be fired from the shoulder is a long gun, which includes rifles, carbines, and shotguns.
Is an MP5 fitted with a stock therefore a long gun? Or a Stechkin APS? Or any other SMG or Pistol that was capable of being fitted with a stock, and therefore being fired from the shoulder?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/26 13:15:11
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/10/26 13:29:45
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
dogma wrote: In your previous post you implied that it does.
No, it really doesn't.
It is, but it isn't exclusive. I never claimed that police should carry Tasers exclusively.
I'm taking a page from your playbook, because you certainly implied that is an adequate replacement for a firearm.
Is an MP5 fitted with a stock therefore a long gun? Or a Stechkin APS? Or any other SMG or Pistol that was capable of being fitted with a stock, and therefore being fired from the shoulder?
Keep on moving those goalposts.
But since you asked, submachine guns have an inconsistent classification (some are carbine-sized but they fire handgun ammunition, others are more similar to machine pistols), with your wide breadth of knowledge you would know that.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/26 13:34:04
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Ouze wrote: It varies wildly. While police officers in general are famously bad shots, there are a select few departments in particular that are willing to couple that lack of skill with a lack of restraint that leads to so many, many tragedies.
From somewhere with such a dim view of firearms I'm not really surprised. Disappointed that proper training is not provided for those carrying firearms to protect themselves and the public, but not surprised.
2014/10/26 15:21:41
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Ouze wrote: It varies wildly. While police officers in general are famously bad shots, there are a select few departments in particular that are willing to couple that lack of skill with a lack of restraint that leads to so many, many tragedies.
From somewhere with such a dim view of firearms I'm not really surprised. Disappointed that proper training is not provided for those carrying firearms to protect themselves and the public, but not surprised.
"Proper training" takes money.
It also, more importantly, takes up time. When you have departments that already have officers working fairly long shifts and overtime, is it really surprising that they do not have free time to put in at the range for what some people consider to be a hobby?
2014/10/26 15:36:20
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
ScootyPuffJunior how is it that after you started a ridiculous argument (I joked about how it sucks how i cant carry a sword around with me and he tried to convince me how i was in fact serious.) you go on and start arguing in 2 more threads in the space of few hours?
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
2014/10/26 15:46:45
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Daemonhammer wrote: ScootyPuffJunior how is it that after you started a ridiculous argument (I joked about how it sucks how i cant carry a sword around with me and he tried to convince me how i was in fact serious.) you go on and start arguing in 2 more threads in the space of few hours?
Still trying to claim you were just "joking" without giving any indication of context, huh? Also, why are you trying to drag another thread into this one?
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/26 15:50:21
Subject: Re:Man with 'Islamic extremist leanings' attacks NY police.
Is an MP5 fitted with a stock therefore a long gun? Or a Stechkin APS? Or any other SMG or Pistol that was capable of being fitted with a stock, and therefore being fired from the shoulder?
According to the law, yes on all counts. If you want your Stechkin without an NFA stamp it must have a 16" barrel.
In the case of a "through-and-through" where its completely not the officers fault(or if the bystander happened to be behind the target) it basically screws the officer over for doing his job, and the threat of a possible lawsuit could make him not take a shot when he could take down his target.
Why should an officer be firing a round capable of a "through-and-through" in the course of general policing? Or even policing in a crowded area?
Any round is capable of a through-and-through. Hollow point are less likely, but people seem to object to them.
Even shotguns have a chance of shot spray missing and hitting bystanders.
Glaser types are better but their effectiveness is very debatable.
Grey Templar wrote: Any round is capable of a through-and-through. Hollow point are less likely, but people seem to object to them.
The NYPD issues Speer gold dot hollowpoints, same as I use.
Ditto. They are very accurate.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/26 20:22:37
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