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Clearly movement speeds are a major issue in 40K.

The table is way too small to give interesting variety, and some models end up in the wrong class for no real reason, because you either move 6 or 12 (or something weird) inches.

I'm fine with the Riptide (as a Tau) being limited to 6" in the movement phase, and creatures like the WK or the DK would be completely useless if they couldn't move 12".

When assault is your strong suit, you need movement, and nowadays less than 12" is not good enough.

SGTPozy wrote:
My point about movement is that an average stride would be far larger than the average stride of a human, and the Riptide and IK have similarly long legs.

But you also have a lot more mass in those legs that needs to be moved. That requires a great deal more power and time - both to set it in motion and then to bring it to a halt.

And, if you're actually raising the entire platform off the ground, then that requires a tremendous amount of energy.

Large units like that may be able to outdistance smaller ones once they accelerated up to speed, but really shouldn't have anything like their current speed or mobility.


In terms of game-design, it just seems like poor practice to have the mindset of "this unit is bigger - so it should be better in every way." There really should be a trade-off.

You have the best weapon at your disposal. Yourself.

Don't play him ever again. Simple as that. With that kind of attitude, do you really need to play with him?

Play, Plastic Toy Soldiers, Childish Attitude.

Do I need to say more why you should stop playing him?

Are we really going to complain about Dreadknights?

Come on guys.

morgoth wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Probably depends what your army is. If all your dudes sit in land raiders or wave serpents then NDKs are as good as any other melee MC that can shot too. On the other hand if you play IG, like me, and on weekly basis have to play against 3 of those it does get a bit frustrating.

Have you ever considered writing a proper list instead of always whining about other armies ?

I have a proper list. In paid for it, more then I can actualy used now, because vendettas went up in points and some models I used were removed from the IG codex or got a new codex I can't buy here as its only digital.

And I have a problem with the fact that something I spend a lot of money on, doesn't feel enjoyable at all.

But your such a good player am sure you can make a good list for me, that can deal with GK, eldar and deldar with eldar ally as those are my opponents.

This is the stuff I own.

40 IG troops.. 12 meltas 12 plasma , 5 autocannons , 5 lascannons , 3 chimera , 3 vendetta , 2 Lemman russes , aegis gunline with AC.

I also have 20 Grey hunters, 1 rune priest , 1 coteaz and 10 henchman with stormbolters. But can't realy use them as I lack the codex for either of them.

Wait, you can't stop two dreadknights with that much plasma, laser, and melta?

I'm just gonna run around shouting 'TFG' at the player with the DKs

EDIT: not because of the Dreadknights themselves, but because he's being a donkey-cave about the whole situation

Makumba wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Probably depends what your army is. If all your dudes sit in land raiders or wave serpents then NDKs are as good as any other melee MC that can shot too. On the other hand if you play IG, like me, and on weekly basis have to play against 3 of those it does get a bit frustrating.

Have you ever considered writing a proper list instead of always whining about other armies ?

I have a proper list. In paid for it, more then I can actualy used now, because vendettas went up in points and some models I used were removed from the IG codex or got a new codex I can't buy here as its only digital.

And I have a problem with the fact that something I spend a lot of money on, doesn't feel enjoyable at all.

But your such a good player am sure you can make a good list for me, that can deal with GK, eldar and deldar with eldar ally as those are my opponents.

This is the stuff I own.

40 IG troops.. 12 meltas 12 plasma , 5 autocannons , 5 lascannons , 3 chimera , 3 vendetta , 2 Lemman russes , aegis gunline with AC.

I also have 20 Grey hunters, 1 rune priest , 1 coteaz and 10 henchman with stormbolters. But can't realy use them as I lack the codex for either of them.

I'm sorry you don't have the proper codexes and units, I really am.

I too am pissed that every other edition or codex the goalposts shift significantly and over 5000 points of my models become a lot less relevant.

I would suggest checking out some of the best tournament lists for AM + allies, there's probably some good stuff to be had with IK+AM+DA, or just IK+AM (IK primary or AM primary depending on stuff).

There's also a forum dedicated to army lists, you should try posting your standard list and saying what got you wrecked last time, I'm sure other AM players can give you some help.

I don't understand this entire discussion. GK are a limited armie and DK are not OP.

There is a distinct difference between a broken unit and a useful one. Killing a couple DK isn't THAT difficult.

The deal is not that DK are OP, but the double-standard about complaining on one super strrog unit, while spamming your own.

I see. I suppose I don't consider any pair of units as overpowered. If you are dropping three or more of a single unit? Well, now you are looking at more of a problem.

 vipoid wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Riptide is epic in the shooting phase and in the assault phase (thrust moves), but has sub-par movement (why does it take baby steps whilst an IK, which is a similar height, moves twice as fast?),

Honestly, I think the IK is the problem there. Though, even then, I'm not sure I'd describe JSJ as 'sub-par'.

GW seems to have this strange idea that no big model should ever have a downside or trade-off.

Like with the Wraithknight - well, it's double the size of a wraithlord... so obviously it will move twice as fast. That's how physics works, right?

And gentlemen, i present the Gorkanaut.

Because an AV 13 dread needs to be the size of a house and carry six orks who can't assault out of it slooooowly across the battlefield before Orks can take one.

It's far from cheap, pointswise, and dies to a melta in the back just as well as any other AV 12 rear vehicle (ie very easily)

Wierd mix of antitank and anti-infantry weapons, which it won't hit much with at BS 2, and swings at I 2 with a slightly better DCCW...

It's slow as hell (especially compared to the teleporting Dreadknight and Thrusting Riptide) and generally shows up at the objective as the game ends, assuming it survives turn 2..

I love 'em, but i don't think anyone could ever claim that they are actually GOOD

Completely agree. They are great fun but they are not good.

Obviously the mistake was not using enough red paint.

Given they nerfed RPJ too

Now a turbocharged evil sunz Gorka moving 12'' a turn would be a LOT of fun

As to the situation the OP is in.

The GK player is in denial. Double GK is nasty.

I don't mind people running double GK or double Riptide or whatever (double Tctan otoh...) as long as they admit that they are pretty beastly for their points.

Claiming they are hunky-dory, or overcosted doesn't go down so well.

So what exactly should GK be running, huh? They don't exactly have a lot of options, and their army really needs strong units to make up for their low numbers. Just running strikes and terminators won't cut it most of the time.
I play Necrons and Chaos. A friend of mine plays GK and has a couple of the knights. I was cheering when they got access to a 4++ and dropped in points cost. I've never had trouble chipping away their wounds one way or another, mostly due to how you have to use them.
Unlike any of the other cheese units people complain about, which can hide on the other side of the board all game blasting away with AP 2, Dread Knights have to get up close to be truly effective. Melta guns and rapid firing plasma guns wish Riptides were so accommodating.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
So what exactly should GK be running, huh? They don't exactly have a lot of options, and their army really needs strong units to make up for their low numbers. Just running strikes and terminators won't cut it most of the time.
I play Necrons and Chaos. A friend of mine plays GK and has a couple of the knights. I was cheering when they got access to a 4++ and dropped in points cost. I've never had trouble chipping away their wounds one way or another, mostly due to how you have to use them.
Unlike any of the other cheese units people complain about, which can hide on the other side of the board all game blasting away with AP 2, Dread Knights have to get up close to be truly effective. Melta guns and rapid firing plasma guns wish Riptides were so accommodating.

Anything else, he expects the tau player not to bring a 2nd riptide but feels its fine for himself to bring 2. The complaints I've heard about only being one playstyle for gk is absurd, you are restricting yourself to what you can take, sure some are better than others but thats the same with all armies.

Eldar- wraith knight and serpant spam
Chaos- daemon factory
Csm- triple heldrake
Tau- riptide and broadsides
Space marines- bikes, drop pods, cents
Grey knights- Dreadknight spam

(there are others for the other armies but you get the idea)

Now look at other armies, if they brought all of their best units and souly them they'd get the crap torn out of them, be called noobs or cheesy. Now we come to gk, and all they say is "mono build" and the dex lacks internal balance so i must only use my strongest unit! Well all codexs has there strong and weak units, but it apears gk think its only ok for them to do it?

This is what the topic is about, the double standard that it is fine to run multiple dk, but any other power or strong unit in the game is cheese to run multiples of

 total0 wrote:
This is what the topic is about, the double standard that it is fine to run multiple dk, but any other power or strong unit in the game is cheese to run multiples of

Take the Red Pill, do down the Rabbit hole, and accept that there is no Spoon, er..umm. I mean Cheese. There is no cheese.

He thinks your T6 Bikers are Cheese. You think his dual DK are cheese. Both of you are wrong.

 adamsouza wrote:

 total0 wrote:
This is what the topic is about, the double standard that it is fine to run multiple dk, but any other power or strong unit in the game is cheese to run multiples of

Take the Red Pill, do down the Rabbit hole, and accept that there is no Spoon, er..umm. I mean Cheese. There is no cheese.

He thinks your T6 Bikers are Cheese. You think his dual DK are cheese. Both of you are wrong.

Nobody has any business complaining about cheese in a competitive match. Only in a fluffy match can you complain about cheese. If you can't beat their cheese in a competitive match you should shower thanks on your opponent for pointing out the weaknesses in your list instead of showering your opponent in whine. If you need to, go back to the drawing board and build a better list.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with the Riptide moving 6", I just don't understand how and why the IK moves 12".

Now back to the discussion, GK players are always quick to tell everyone that their other heavy option is crap, but so what? Take Tau, they have 3 elite slots (2 if playing FE) so does that give us an excuse to spam Riptides? Riptides are far superior to crisis suits; higher Ld, S, T, W, A, Sv and has a better gun, so am I allowed to only use them?
Now to Tau's heavy slots. There is the hammerhead (awful; railgun does nothing and ion cannon sucks compared to the ion accelerator), skyrays (even worse), sniper drones (why do Tau need more anti-infantry?) and then Broadsides (these are good). Am I allowed to just spam these too?

SGTPozy wrote:
Just to clarify, I have no problem with the Riptide moving 6", I just don't understand how and why the IK moves 12".

Now back to the discussion, GK players are always quick to tell everyone that their other heavy option is crap, but so what? Take Tau, they have 3 elite slots (2 if playing FE) so does that give us an excuse to spam Riptides? Riptides are far superior to crisis suits; higher Ld, S, T, W, A, Sv and has a better gun, so am I allowed to only use them?
Now to Tau's heavy slots. There is the hammerhead (awful; railgun does nothing and ion cannon sucks compared to the ion accelerator), skyrays (even worse), sniper drones (why do Tau need more anti-infantry?) and then Broadsides (these are good). Am I allowed to just spam these too?

Lol you just made the point i was trying to make :p

col_impact wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 total0 wrote:
This is what the topic is about, the double standard that it is fine to run multiple dk, but any other power or strong unit in the game is cheese to run multiples of

Take the Red Pill, do down the Rabbit hole, and accept that there is no Spoon, er..umm. I mean Cheese. There is no cheese.

He thinks your T6 Bikers are Cheese. You think his dual DK are cheese. Both of you are wrong.

Nobody has any business complaining about cheese in a competitive match. Only in a fluffy match can you complain about cheese. If you can't beat their cheese in a competitive match you should shower thanks on your opponent for pointing out the weaknesses in your list instead of showering your opponent in whine. If you need to, go back to the drawing board and build a better list.

Who made you the King of what is and what is not cheese? Why is Total0 not allowed to call something cheese? I say that the Riptide isn't cheese, so does that mean it isn't?
The guy is talking about how there is a double standard, if you want to talk about what is or is not cheese, go make your own thread. GK players are so annoying nowadays, they can do no wrong in their eyes and everything that can do ANYTHING better than them is OP (unless its IoM).
You have plasma? OP. You have melta? OP. You can JSJ? OP (even though turn 1 they can shoot then run or run then shoot, which is similar).

It is really annoying.

I admit that the dk are strong, but you need atleast 2 or they will not work. 3 is pretty cheesy but taking 2 of a model is needed for redundancy.
Their is nothing else that is needed or wanted in the heavy slot because land raiders are a dedicated transport if you take terminators.

But if you notice gk players don't have alot of anything because other than a paint job their all the same model...

but yes its a double standard. The other guy should be able to take 2 squads of bikes or two riptides becaue that is what is needed to make them work properly.
3 is pushing it and one of the reasons serpents are so bad is because you can field 4+ all the way to 7 ish in some games and still have points for other heavy slotted vehicles.

SGTPozy wrote:
Who made you the King of what is and what is not cheese?

Exploting some unintended loophole is cheesy. Playing good units is common sense.

 adamsouza wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Who made you the King of what is and what is not cheese?

Exploting some unintended loophole is cheesy. Playing good units is common sense.

Exactly. Complaining about people playing good units in a competitive match is whining. Whining is bad sportsmanship.

There is no double-standard. The OP's GK opponent is, however, being a douche bag.

This thread really has nothing to do with any implied or explicit double-standard between one army with big models and another army with big models. It's just a DK/GK bash party, with little redeeming value. So the GK player whines about more than one Riptide while he in turn fields two DKs? That's not a double-standard, that's being a whiny player you shouldn't be playing anyway.

SJ

morgoth wrote:

I'm fine with the Riptide (as a Tau) being limited to 6" in the movement phase, and creatures like the WK or the DK would be completely useless if they couldn't move 12".

Yeah imagine if there was a codex that had over 10 overpriced MCs that could only move 6", had crappy armour saves and no invul saves, the horror!

Take 3 - 4 Grav Cents with Tigurius and/or Coteaz and a tank character, and make the Dreadknights cry bitter tears of sadness?

SGTPozy wrote:
Just to clarify, I have no problem with the Riptide moving 6", I just don't understand how and why the IK moves 12".

The DK,WK and IK are all close combat units, that's why they *need* to move 12" or just be useless.

The only reason the Riptide doesn't move 12" is probably that he already has the thrust move and having both would make him almost impossible to catch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Who made you the King of what is and what is not cheese?

Exploting some unintended loophole is cheesy. Playing good units is common sense.

So, you agree the screamerstar is cheesy for example ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Take 3 - 4 Grav Cents with Tigurius and/or Coteaz and a tank character, and make the Dreadknights cry bitter tears of sadness?

Yes because the ultimate IoM cheese is the answer to everything...

morgoth wrote:

So, you agree the screamerstar is cheesy for example ?

How is the Screamer star an exploit of an unintended loophole? What do you base this on?