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 Zewrath wrote:

morgoth wrote:

So, you agree the screamerstar is cheesy for example ?

How is the Screamer star an exploit of an unintended loophole? What do you base this on?

It's 'cheesey' because it's an abusive gimmick, and makes for incredibly boring games, which is the main problem with all Deathstar army builds.
Typically, you either have the tools to deal with it, and can readily curbstomp the gimmick, or else you don't, and you spend a pointless & mind numbingly dull hour or so just removing handfuls of your models and/or get to play "keep-away-hammer".

Maybe it's less of a problem when both players agree to bring their top level lists, but when you pull it out in a random game without first forewarning your opponent that you're running a highly competitive Tourney level list, then it's pure well aged cheddar, and you're a complete donkey-cave for bringing a WaaC's list to steamroll unsuspecting opponents.



That said, Screamerstar is pretty pants in 7th as it's damage potential is poop now since it can only cast a single Flicker Fire per phase, while putting up the added buffs to get to 2++ isn't quite as automatic as it used to be. (but still much easier than it should be to gain a re-rolled 2++!!)

All it really does is to simply never die thanks to that re-rolled 2++.

Experiment 626 wrote:

That said, Screamerstar is pretty pants in 7th as it's damage potential is poop now since it can only cast a single Flicker Fire per phase.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

morgoth wrote:

So, you agree the screamerstar is cheesy for example ?

How is the Screamer star an exploit of an unintended loophole? What do you base this on?

It's 'cheesey' because it's an abusive gimmick, and makes for incredibly boring games, which is the main problem with all Deathstar army builds.
Typically, you either have the tools to deal with it, and can readily curbstomp the gimmick, or else you don't, and you spend a pointless & mind numbingly dull hour or so just removing handfuls of your models and/or get to play "keep-away-hammer".

Maybe it's less of a problem when both players agree to bring their top level lists, but when you pull it out in a random game without first forewarning your opponent that you're running a highly competitive Tourney level list, then it's pure well aged cheddar, and you're a complete donkey-cave for bringing a WaaC's list to steamroll unsuspecting opponents.



That said, Screamerstar is pretty pants in 7th as it's damage potential is poop now since it can only cast a single Flicker Fire per phase, while putting up the added buffs to get to 2++ isn't quite as automatic as it used to be. (but still much easier than it should be to gain a re-rolled 2++!!)

All it really does is to simply never die thanks to that re-rolled 2++.

Yes, thanks I know what the screamer star is and what it does. My question is why it is considered an exploit of a loophole.

 Zewrath wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

morgoth wrote:

So, you agree the screamerstar is cheesy for example ?

How is the Screamer star an exploit of an unintended loophole? What do you base this on?

It's 'cheesey' because it's an abusive gimmick, and makes for incredibly boring games, which is the main problem with all Deathstar army builds.
Typically, you either have the tools to deal with it, and can readily curbstomp the gimmick, or else you don't, and you spend a pointless & mind numbingly dull hour or so just removing handfuls of your models and/or get to play "keep-away-hammer".

Maybe it's less of a problem when both players agree to bring their top level lists, but when you pull it out in a random game without first forewarning your opponent that you're running a highly competitive Tourney level list, then it's pure well aged cheddar, and you're a complete donkey-cave for bringing a WaaC's list to steamroll unsuspecting opponents.



That said, Screamerstar is pretty pants in 7th as it's damage potential is poop now since it can only cast a single Flicker Fire per phase, while putting up the added buffs to get to 2++ isn't quite as automatic as it used to be. (but still much easier than it should be to gain a re-rolled 2++!!)

All it really does is to simply never die thanks to that re-rolled 2++.

Yes, thanks I know what the screamer star is and what it does. My question is why it is considered an exploit of a loophole.

Because re-rollable 2++ saves are the epitome of stupidity, and near-immunity to all damage outside of a 1/6 shot of Str.D shouldn't exist outside of perhaps a one-off ability for a special character. (such as Cypher's old 4++ on 3D6 for his last wound, or Gaz's old '1 turn only' ability to make his 2+ armour a 2++ invuln)

Gaining a re-rolled 2++ covering 40-50% of your army for the entire game really feels like cheating.


- a Tzeentch Daemon player.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Because re-rollable 2++ saves are the epitome of stupidity, and near-immunity to all damage outside of a 1/6 shot of Str.D shouldn't exist outside of perhaps a one-off ability for a special character. (such as Cypher's old 4++ on 3D6 for his last wound, or Gaz's old '1 turn only' ability to make his 2+ armour a 2++ invuln)

Gaining a re-rolled 2++ covering 40-50% of your army for the entire game really feels like cheating.

But, that's still not a loophole - it's just further evidence that GW are colossal morons when it comes to balancing their game.

Really, it seems like it would be pretty easy to just make all invulnerable saves non-rerollable.

 Zewrath wrote:
Yes, thanks I know what the screamer star is and what it does. My question is why it is considered an exploit of a loophole.

Because Screamers were designed to reroll saves failed on a roll of 1, not to have a rerollable 2++ when combining unusual items and special abilities.

Just like other examples of cheese before it, it's a combo taking advantage of unintended consequences of multiple unusual rules.

That makes it "cheesy".

What does a screamer star actually consist of? I've heard of it, but never seen anyone actually use it :p

It consists of Screamers and Heralds-on-Discs supported by a Lord of Change who can buff their Daemonic Aura save.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It consists of Screamers and Heralds-on-Discs supported by a Lord of Change who can buff their Daemonic Aura save.

Not exactly.

It's Screamers, Heralds and Kairos Fateweaver.

The Screamers are the tanky bit, very fast, and they go down to 2++ with Grimoire and either cursed earth or forewarning (4++ save), rerolled because they reroll ones.

The Heralds wear the Grimoire (the one wearing the grimoire is the weak spot because he doesn't get ++2), portalglyph and some other stuff, but mostly cast (1-4)D6 S6 shots each using psychic power "Flickering Fire", at as many targets (4) as there are Heralds.

The last dude, Kairos Fateweaver, is there because he has one special rule that allows a single reroll of a dice when he's on the table.

That brings the reliability of the grimoire from 2/3 up to 8/9ths, meaning the Screamers only have to hide one turn out of nine.

Screamers and Disc Heralds are both jetbike types, so they also have crazy mobility.



The big issue however, is that RAW, v7 does not allow for 4 Heralds casting one Flickering Fire each, even though the current ETC clarification (and probably other tournament house rules too) does.

morgoth wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Yes, thanks I know what the screamer star is and what it does. My question is why it is considered an exploit of a loophole.

Because Screamers were designed to reroll saves failed on a roll of 1, not to have a rerollable 2++ when combining unusual items and special abilities.

Just like other examples of cheese before it, it's a combo taking advantage of unintended consequences of multiple unusual rules.

That makes it "cheesy".

What do you base this on? How do you know what thought process went through the design team? Especially since they now allowed stacking invulnerable saves for 2 editions now, if they weren't intended one of think that they would remove it, not create even more psychic powers to improve them.

To me, an unintended loophole was the 5th edition Draigowing, due to how the wound allocation worked. One could also argue that conga lining a huge infantry mob, were only 1 model stands on top of the skyshield landing pad would be a loophole. One could even argue that using your pyrovore to fish for ID and surround it with several Gaunts and use them to nuke the entire table, is an unintended loophole.

Damn I recently bought 2 DKs for my GK army...I haven't even played a single game of 7th yet.

1's a target, 2's a tactic, while 3 or more is a strategy.

SJ