dk double standard

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**total0**

The gk player in my community runs duel dk but doesnt see them as being a little cheesy. He has many a time complained about the tau players interest in possibly getting a 2nd riptide and as an outside party have asked him whats the difference between duel dk and duel riptides? Personally i find dredknights are much harder to kill as with a riptide all you need is cc and its useless, a tactic you cant use against a dk

His reaction to this was a little childish, saying my argument was because i lose against him (note he uses only his best units avaliable to him where i play a mono god nurgle army for fluff reasons so i dont expect to win a lot of my games as the fun of the game is most important to me).

The problem is, if i bring up maybe just using the one for a change is that he basically shouts mono build and says mon bikers are much better (i use a single 7 man for fluff reasons)

So do you guys see his point? Or do you agree that duel dk are just as bad as duel riptides?

**krodarklorr**

Dual DK is worse than two Riptides. Riptides you can ignore, or get into melee with. Dreadnights you can't do that. Personally, I just wouldn't play against him if he has that attitude.

**Makumba**

Probably depends what your army is. If all your dudes sit in land raiders or wave serpents then NDKs are as good as any other melee MC that can shot too. On the other hand if you play IG, like me, and on weekly basis have to play against 3 of those it does get a bit frustrating.

**Quickjager**

Yes... this is definetly a GK double standard, imo all players of this codex are donkey-caves, just like all Eldar players are.

Its not the codex but the player mate, hope you can see that in the future.

Best cheese list I saw was 3 dreadknights @ 1000, was a dick move.

**Murenius**

Quickjager wrote:
Yes... this is definetly a GK double standard, imo all players of this codex are donkey-caves, just like all Eldar players are.

Uh huh. And players like me who play both are the reincarnation of Hitler, Stalin and Genghis Khan.

**vipoid**

Makumba wrote:
Probably depends what your army is. If all your dudes sit in land raiders or wave serpents then NDKs are as good as any other melee MC that can shot too. On the other hand if you play IG, like me, and on weekly basis have to play against 3 of those it does get a bit frustrating.

Hello, IG squad. Say hello to my good friend - Heavy Incinerator. Goodbye IG squad.

**krodarklorr**

Quickjager wrote:
Yes... this is definetly a GK double standard, imo all players of this codex are donkey-caves, just like all Eldar players are.

Its not the codex but the player mate, hope you can see that in the future.

Best cheese list I saw was 3 dreadknights @ 1000, was a dick move.

I dunno, my GK friend is a pretty nice guy, and it's not his fault the army is still pretty obnoxious, and I have little that can deal with a DK. I refuse to play him still, but he's a nice player. Then I have a buddy that plays Eldar. Recently he's decided to not use Wave Serpents, and not only has he had more fun, but he's enjoyed more things about the army in general. And then he also still feels they're a bit too powerful, so he'll bring out his Rainbow Chaos Marines for awhile.

You can't generalize the players based on what army they have, since a lot of people have multiple armies. But, playing 3 DK at 1000 points is probably the most dickish thing I've heard of.

**total0**

Quickjager wrote:
Yes... this is definetly a GK double standard, imo all players of this codex are donkey-caves, just like all Eldar players are.

Its not the codex but the player mate, hope you can see that in the future.

Best cheese list I saw was 3 dreadknights @ 1000, was a dick move.

My apologies, i didnt mean to generalise to the whole gk comunity but i thibk i made my point?

I dont mind playing against an all out list now and then but when he takes the same (or similar) power build all the time it does get a little tedious. What makes it worse is he doesnt see the problem with it, hos logic is dks arent too difficult to kill so are fine to take multiple yet tis the first to moan about any little change in the tau players list (he chose to run a 2nd plasma suit squad one time) and was all up in arms about tau cheese :p.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:
Probably depends what your army is. If all your dudes sit in land raiders or wave serpents then NDKs are as good as any other melee MC that can shot too. On the other hand if you play IG, like me, and on weekly basis have to play against 3 of those it does get a bit frustrating.

I dont take land raiders all that often, though i do take mon bikers now and then or kharn and Cultist and Defiler (too many variations to say but i use sub par units like raptors and normal marines ect) so it gets a little annoying going towards a list tailored for pure win, only using units that have no weakness really (or really difficult to kill)

**Quickjager**

I play all Strike Squad sometimes because it feels gooooood to fill up my side of the board.

**koooaei**

Murenius wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
Yes... this is definetly a GK double standard, imo all players of this codex are donkey-caves, just like all Eldar players are.

Uh huh. And players like me who play both are the reincarnation of Hitler, Stalin and Genghis Khan.

All right, comrades. I thy to issue Run Run Run to conscripts with comissar...

**total0**

Quickjager wrote:
I play all Strike Squad sometimes because it feels gooooood to fill up my side of the board. [/quote

Good to know :p]

**Talizvar**

Murenius wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
Yes... this is definetly a GK double standard, imo all players of this codex are donkey-caves, just like all Eldar players are.

Uh huh. And players like me who play both are the reincarnation of Hitler, Stalin and Genghis Khan.

I suppose that with me playing IG/AM, SM:BT, CSM I am mother Teresa?

Ooops! Sorry, donkey cave here too: I have Grey Knights as well.
Since I have jumped on the bandwagon and 70% of the models are metal...

OP: Your opponent is being a bit aggressive if he knows you are doing a more casual list.
I would have throttled back just to make sure I had a close game for the fun/challenge.
Please remember that sometimes these players want you to up YOUR game not ask them to lower theirs.

**Quickjager**

Noononononono

if you play NPC races like Orks and Tyranids you are Mother Teresa.

Sister of Battle are that one codex you stop and stare because you never see them. As such they are Tom Cruise.

**Talizvar**

Quickjager wrote:
Noononononono
if you play NPC races like Orks

Nononono... have Orky opponent is a tough one to beat

and Tyranids you are Mother Teresa.

Deserves a purple heart medal and sainthood.

Sister of Battle are that one codex you stop and stare because you never see them. As such they are Tom Cruise.

Got a few players of them.
Not sure how to categorize.
It is a bit like people insisting on trying to play Squats: with a whole lot of work it can be done, many would LOVE to see it, but this is like unadulterated masochism: you enjoy this suffering.
Does that count?

**Zewrath**

I can't really blame the gk player. I can't even fathom a way for them to effectively deal with anything above AV 12, if he doesn't bring at least 2 NDKs.

**MarsNZ**

I think you're displaying a double standard of your own. You can say 'fluffy' nurgle army all you like, they're the go-to units for CSM players who want to win. Look at basically any thread asking about what a player should get for their CSM army. It's almost always.
1.) Plague Marines
2.) Nurgle bikes.
3.) Nurgle spawn

**total0**

MarsNZ wrote:
I think you're displaying a double standard of your own. You can say 'fluffy' nurgle army all you like, they're the go-to units for CSM players who want to win. Look at basically any thread asking about what a player should get for their CSM army. It's almost always.
1.) Plague Marines
2.) Nurgle bikes.
3.) Nurgle spawn

I rarely use plague marines anymore, bikes are now and then and spawn are situational so no, not a double standard. I tend to use marines, zombies or cultists, defiler or termi lord are my most frequently used units

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And i chose nurgle as he's my favored god, i continued them after taking a break from my fantasy nurgle daemons so i didnt choose them for the slight buff

**col_impact**

I never complain about cheese. In fact I want my opponents to bring the cheesiest lists they can. How else am I going to get an honest test of how strong my TAC army is?

**Makumba**

Yeah and then when you find out it doesn't do much against those builds, what do you do? buy a new one?

Uh huh. And players like me who play both are the reincarnation of Hitler, Stalin and Genghis Khan.

Ha ha ha so funny.

**col_impact**

Makumba wrote:
Yeah and then when you find out it doesn't do much against those builds, what do you do? buy a new one?

People are free to proxy whatever they want when they play me.

And yes, you will have to buy models if you want your army to stay in top competitive form.

There are two methods of playing, competitive and fluffy, Each works fine when they are kept pure in their intent.

If players blur the line between fluffy and competitive that's where problems come in.

When I play fluffy I care absolutely not one whiff if I lose.

If I play competitively, I have absolutely no excuse if I lose to cheese. I need to have an answer for it or go back to the drawing board.

**jeffersonian000**

DKs don't drop AP2 pie plate like Riptides do, nor have a chance at a 3++ save like Riptides do, not the mention those pesky Shield Drones DKs can't have either. I can see a concern by a GK player going up against Tau Tide players.

That said, though, the GK player has to moral ground to stand on to complain about multiple Riptides when they are taking multiple DreadKnights.

SJ

**adamsouza**

I haven't even read the entire GK codex, or bought models yet, and I was thinking about running 3 DKs. Anything good is worth running multiples of. Redundancy in list building is a valid and effective tactic.

Also, from the OP's other pretty similar thread

nwns wrote:
Moaning about cheese is the sound of a player you don't want to play.

**Makumba**

col_impact wrote:
Makumba wrote:
Yeah and then when you find out it doesn't do much against those builds, what do you do? buy a new one?

People are free to proxy whatever they want when they play me.

And yes, you will have to buy models if you want your army to stay in top competitive form.

There are two methods of playing, competitive and fluffy, Each works fine when they are kept pure in their intent.

If players blur the line between fluffy and competitive that's where problems come in.

When I play fluffy I care absolutely not one whiff if I lose.

If I play competitively, I have absolutely no excuse if I lose to cheese. I need to have an answer for it or go back to the drawing board.

If something can be legaly taken it is automatcly fluffy. And there is nothing you can buy to make IG better or up to level as eldar, because the eldar codex was making better armies when the IG codex got updated and since the new IG codex we haven't been given any new rules updateds.
Same with multi DK armies vs IG, they don't seem to be so OP against marines or eldar, but against IG they just kill the important order giving or anti tank models giving the GK player a free win turn one, and they do it from a shunt distance, so there is no real way to hide from them or kill them before they are in range.

I can see a concern by a GK player going up against Tau Tide players.

As soon as my Russes start to do the same things riptides and DKs or WK do, I will be realy happy about the balance too.

**morgoth**

Makumba wrote:
Probably depends what your army is. If all your dudes sit in land raiders or wave serpents then NDKs are as good as any other melee MC that can shot too. On the other hand if you play IG, like me, and on weekly basis have to play against 3 of those it does get a bit frustrating.

Have you ever considered writing a proper list instead of always whining about other armies ?

**vipoid**

morgoth wrote:
Have you ever considered writing a proper list instead of always whining about other armies ?

Ah, the good old L2P argument. It just adds to much to any discussion.

**morgoth**

In general, as far as whining goes, the following patterns seem to apply:

If it's any good: +3 WhinePoints
If it's really good: +10 WhinePoints
If it's not IoM: +10 WhinePoints
If the player hates losing: +10 WhinePoints

So basically, when your GK guy whines about Tau, he has 30 Whine Points, whereas when you whine about a GK, you have about 10 WhinePoints if the unit is really good but you can take a loss like a man.

So clearly, the dual Riptides is a lot worse than dual DreadKnights and would be so even if they had the exact same profile and even if 2xDK was a lot deadlier to your army.

In general, people who like to whine about balance issues (even if they're real) are neither good or fun players so it's better to stay clear of them.

Either way, once you start winning against them they'll start whining about you, even if your list is soft.

**vipoid**

Yep, it's the players who bring up balance issues that are the real terrible people of the wargaming community. I mean, what sort of terrible people would actually care about seeing the game improve?

Obviously the most fun and enjoyable people are the WAAC players who think the game should remain pay-to-win. Or, perhaps the players who reduce any balance complaints to "whining", yet apparently fail to see the irony of constantly whining about the so-called whiners.

Edited by RiTides - Language, please

**SGTPozy**

To OP, your GK opponent isn't much different to most GK players (IME) who are all whiny, especially against non-IoM armies.

The Riptide is epic in the shooting phase and in the assault phase (thrust moves), but has sub-par movement (why does it take baby steps whilst an IK, which is a similar height, moves twice as fast?), no psychic abilities and is easily tarpitted (I only ever hit with one dice).
On the other hand, the DK moves 12" and has that broken jump move, can have two great guns, is a psyker and can get a 4++ and it is amazing in combat.

GK players (IME, these are the people that I have played against) tend to whine if they don't win. I had one game where the GK player used 3 DKs in 1500 game and shunted all 3 up in my face. Stupidly however, he shunted 2 into my plasma suits' faces. They destroyed 1 with the help of everything else, my single Riptide whiffed against the 2nd and I had to ignore his 3rd one. Turn 2, he charged and killed off my plasma guys and locked the Riptide up.
After the game, he complained about the single crisis suit squad as it was 'broken' (clearly because he can't do it, and it wasn't as if I use pathfinders that often).

**vipoid**

SGTPozy wrote:
The Riptide is epic in the shooting phase and in the assault phase (thrust moves), but has sub-par movement (why does it take baby steps whilst an IK, which is a similar height, moves twice as fast?),

Honestly, I think the IK is the problem there. Though, even then, I'm not sure I'd describe JSJ as 'sub-par'.

GW seems to have this strange idea that no big model should ever have a downside or trade-off.

Like with the Wraithknight - well, it's double the size of a wraithlord... so obviously it will move twice as fast. That's how physics works, right?

**SGTPozy**

I said that JSJ was good, as I said that its thrust move was good :L My point about movement is that an average stride would be far larger than the average stride of a human, and the Riptide and IK have similarly long legs.
The 'sub-par' movement that I am talking about is 6" compare to the DK's 12".