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Talys wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
We use metal dice trays. Anything that pops out of the tray is rerolled....and I've come to love that harsh clank

Hah!

We use felt lined ones. But yeah, I would never go back to rolling on the table.

Rolling on the table is used for a common cheating method. Roll into terrain. If something lands cocked, and you don't like the roll, its a reroll...if you do like the roll, its a good roll. Believe it or not, I have seen lots of people do this.

 Arschbombe wrote:
The 11th company provides dice at their GTs. It seems kind of awkward at first, but once you get used to it, it works pretty well and can help speed up the game.

This. The game speed alone is worth using the same dice. Even if you don't want to use each other's dice 100% of the time, it's much easier to, for example, pick up the successful "to-wound" dice your opponent just rolled when attempting your armor saves rather than counting the number of wounds and then getting that many of your own dice. Just scoop them up...they're right there!

 Desubot wrote:
Wasn't there some kinda study on specifically cheesex dies?

I remember they cut one up with a very sciency saw that showed a boat load of airbubbles and stuff on the inside.

I have some transparent Chessex dice with numbers instead of pips I use for WMH, there aren't any bubbles in them. This might have been an old study.

Iv seen some horribly deformed ones in the past.

Its usually the cheap ones that GW also slings.

It probably has to do with manufacturing controls for something mass produced rather than the numbered ones.

Edit: Also im dumb the dissected dice thing was from the linked study

Loaded dice are the big issue for competitive play and it is much more common than you think

Got any references to cite to support that claim?

 Psienesis wrote:

Loaded dice are the big issue for competitive play and it is much more common than you think

Got any references to cite to support that claim?

I guess that puts a whole new spin to WAAC, lol. We need a WAACIC. Win At Any Cost -- Including Cheating!!! Why not make it simpler... have a your 250 lb friend punch the other guy in the nose, and then tell him if you don't win in an apparent hard-fought victory, he'll break it? Geez.

I'm with Psienesis though; I haven't ever been in a gaming group, even with fiercely competitive folks, where loaded dice was a "common" problem. Mostly, the fact that you'll be pretty much banned from any local scene, nobody will ever play with you, and people will go, "hey, that's the guy who cheated" at the local FLGS when you go to shop pretty much discourages dice cheaters, I would think.

But hey, what do I know

WAACIC is a bit redundant.

All cost = all cost

that includes the illegal kind.

I buy hundreds (nearing thousands) of dice from casinos for my local club... 5 tables, terrain, storage... not a store, but an entire floor of my house. On a typical gaming day I can have 12 people playing 40k at a time. I've ran this club from 4th edition to now. Of course people bring their own dice, I just have boxes of casino dice and templates/tape measures for them to use as needed.

Observations:

We still get arguments on good/bad dice
Casino dice do not have pointed edges and are barely less rounded than same size chessex dice.
All dice roll average... luck is when the outlying rolls occur (I'm lucky in that I usually fail rolls when it didn't matter "pass 20 FNP rolls for 3 models, wow I just rolled 11 ones... oh well" and when it does matter, "pass five 4++ saves and I capture the winning objective? Look at that 4,4,5,6 and another 5"). I don't think it happens that often, but it does seem be at those memorable times. (I will add that no one remembers my epic fails, because I don't make them into a big deal and I probably won anyway). I think perceived luck is more about how much people scapegoat their rolls for a loss and how well their tactics can handle a set back than any real abnormalities in rolls.

I'd never tell a gamer to use someone else's dice, and I'd not let anyone tell me to do the same... It'd be petty and irrelevant, but I'll use my dice, thank you very much.

 jasper76 wrote:

Talys wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
We use metal dice trays. Anything that pops out of the tray is rerolled....and I've come to love that harsh clank

Hah!

We use felt lined ones. But yeah, I would never go back to rolling on the table.

Rolling on the table is used for a common cheating method. Roll into terrain. If something lands cocked, and you don't like the roll, its a reroll...if you do like the roll, its a good roll. Believe it or not, I have seen lots of people do this.

Just use the rule that if you can't balance another die on top, it is cocked and must be rerolled, if you can balance another die on top, it isn't cocked and must use that result.

I always like to dice share.


In most editions it is actually the rules. Ignoring that, if someone has some dice that aren't perfectly random it helps share out the luck. Got a dice that tends to roll ones? It may take longer to score a wound, but when you do my terminator is more likely to fail its save!

 Desubot wrote:
WAACIC is a bit redundant.

All cost = all cost

that includes the illegal kind.

Surely, technically, if you aren't playing by the rules of the game you aren't winning.

If you can just make stuff up...

Well guess what? I just beat Desubot at a game of 40k! haha!

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
"It's a poor workman who blames his tools."

If people are seriously thinking it's the dice's fault they're losing then those people need to step back and see what the real problem might be.

That's a ridiculous thing to say in a game of chance that literally loses on 1s. Many games are lost because the dice don't swing a certain way and there ARE dice, this has been proven, that are badly made and heavier on one face by a small margin. Do you also consider a blackjack loss to be your fault? Or a slot machine loss to be your fault? Welcome to games of chance.

The probability variance between normal dice is so small that it will have zero impact on a game, let alone a series of 3-5 games at a tournament. Weighted dice are a separate matter, but not one I'd concern myself with.

As for that study, I'd be a bit wary of it. The guy is claiming he made 144,000 individual dice rolls and recorded all the data from it, thats over 40 hours of dice rolling and data entry alone, assuming it takes you exactly 1 second to roll the die and record the data (you would be hard pressed to do it that fast, so I imagine it would take considerably longer, probably closer to 5 seconds per roll if hes really fast and doesnt get any spinners, etc. at which point you're looking at 200 hours). Beyond that he doesn't give a lot information about his methodology, nor does he provide any data, nor any data on how he conducted the statistical analysis and what sort of testing he used on said data. This is especially odd considering he claims to have sent chessex a copy of the report, which he didn't provide to the rest of us. In other words: its worthless and you shouldn't trust it.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Do you also consider a blackjack loss to be your fault?
.

Um, yes. You're playing your odds and others. How is it 40K not playing your odds? And you have way more control over your odds and way more knowledge of the opposing odds. If you still keep losing it's not the dice. Sorry if that hurts.

 Lobukia wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Do you also consider a blackjack loss to be your fault?
.

Um, yes. You're playing your odds and others. How is it 40K not playing your odds? And you have way more control over your odds and way more knowledge of the opposing odds. If you still keep losing it's not the dice. Sorry if that hurts.

However, in Black Jack, if someone is winning 86% of their games, they are counting cards or someone is in on it, and out comes Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci to break your hand in pieces with a ballpoint hammer. Fortunately, we can chalk up astounding 40k records to player skill, rather than odds, can't we?

1. ball PEEN hammer
2. There is considerable skill (really more like instinct) in blackjack. I've probably won about 75% of the blackjack games I've played and I have never once counted cards, I don't even know how to.
3. We can chalk up astounding 40k records more to good list building than we can to player skill. 40k is a rather skill-lite game where probabilities matter more than individual player actions and decisions, and those probabilities can easily be engineered to achieve a desired outcome during the list building phase.

chaos0xomega wrote:
1. ball PEEN hammer
2. There is considerable skill (really more like instinct) in blackjack. I've probably won about 75% of the blackjack games I've played and I have never once counted cards, I don't even know how to.
3. We can chalk up astounding 40k records more to good list building than we can to player skill. 40k is a rather skill-lite game where probabilities matter more than individual player actions and decisions, and those probabilities can easily be engineered to achieve a desired outcome during the list building phase.

1. Damn auto-correct.
2. If you go some place where other people also know blackjack, like a highstakes table in Vegas, I can assure you you will not win 75% of your games, unless you have an incredibly lucky streak...the kind of streak that causes the eye in the sky to hone in and figure out how you're winning that much.
3. Granted. My point was blackjack vs. 40k is not an apples-to-apples comparison. One is very simple, the other quite complex.

Fair enough. On principal I dont gamble... well, its not that I have principals, just that I dont have a bank account deep enough to support a gambling habit

I prefer larger, more precise dice because I do want a "fair" result.

I have switched from smaller GW-size (12mm) small Chessex dice to larger (16+mm) dice, and I prefer to use a dice cup when rolling.

I am not sure that my luck has changed, but I definitely appreciate the increased cross-table readability from the larger faces, and I like to believe that my overall die results are closer to "fair" than before.

I am very seriously considering ordering a custom set of translucent 16mm dice for gaming.

 Desubot wrote:
WAACIC is a bit redundant.

All cost = all cost

that includes the illegal kind.

Awww c'mon, I assume that WAAC means, within the parameters of the game. Otherwise, at the beginning of each game, take a sledgehammer to your opponents models and say they have lost, because after all, the units are destroyed. WYSIWYG and all, you know.

Poisoning your opponent with laxatives, blackmailing them with nude selfies stolen from their girlfriend's phone, and telling them you'll fire them if you lose are all a little out of the bounds of 'any cost' too

Well thats why its ALL costs

not any costs.

The kinda guy that will set light to your car just to have them DQ them selves out.

Default wins be wins.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Do you also consider a blackjack loss to be your fault?
.

Um, yes. You're playing your odds and others. How is it 40K not playing your odds? And you have way more control over your odds and way more knowledge of the opposing odds. If you still keep losing it's not the dice. Sorry if that hurts.

However, in Black Jack, if someone is winning 86% of their games, they are counting cards or someone is in on it, and out comes Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci to break your hand in pieces with a ballpoint hammer. Fortunately, we can chalk up astounding 40k records to player skill, rather than odds, can't we?

In Blackjack, if someone is winning 86% of the time (against the dealer) the deck is stacked. No card counting system would ever get you anywhere close to that (not even if you had a perfect record of every card played in the shoe). At the best, card counting gives a slight edge when you have ahand that will probably lose if the dealer doesn't bust. Knowing the number of high versus low cards helps you figure out whether you should hit or stand.

However, the most significant difference card counting makes is in betting. Since the dealer is playing their own game, a card counter can tell how much more likely they are to bust, and jn those cases bet more. All card counting schemes rely on a spotter to bet consistently, and signal a high roller to come in and bet when they think that the odds are favorable. This is because if your betting is super profitable (is you lose hands but win money) you will be caught and bad things will happen.

Just like dice cheaters in 40k!!

 Desubot wrote:
Wasn't there some kinda study on specifically cheesex dies?

I remember they cut one up with a very sciency saw that showed a boat load of airbubbles and stuff on the inside.

Finecast dice!