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Tac squads, mostly due to greater flexibility.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, in the closing games of 6th, I found ATSKNF to be more a liability than a help. Now that 7th has nerfed it a bit more, I'd just as soon not have ATSKNF. I also consider the S and I on marines to be basically worthless. So now we are down to T. Again, I am taking a lot of fire from S6 and above. Helps against pulse rifles, I guess. I think I'd still go with the extra wounds for the squad.

How is ATSKNF a liability?

Pretty much any time I lose a hth, I want my squad swept so I can shoot them some more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkLink wrote:

changemod wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, in the closing games of 6th, I found ATSKNF to be more a liability than a help. Now that 7th has nerfed it a bit more, I'd just as soon not have ATSKNF. I also consider the S and I on marines to be basically worthless. So now we are down to T. Again, I am taking a lot of fire from S6 and above. Helps against pulse rifles, I guess. I think I'd still go with the extra wounds for the squad.

How is ATSKNF a liability?

It's a toss up.

If you fall back at the end of an opponent's turn, you get to shoot them and charge again.

If you fall back at the end of your turn, they get to shoot you then charge again.

Depending on timing you can get a huge bonus or a huge deficit in combat.

Nothing but good in the Shooting Phase though.

In basically every possible situation you can conceive, ATSKNF is far better in every way than no ATSKNF. The one and only time it could be construed as objectively worse is if you've got like one Marine left locked in combat and you want to shoot the enemy unit even if it costs you that one Marine, but that's a situation you have no control over anyways and the number of times ATSKNF benefits you far outweights the rare occasion like that where it doesn't.

I'm not convinced. I've wished many times that my units didn't have ATSKNF. It has rarely benefited me in the shooting phase, because my units get wiped out a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're not any tougher against S6+ (which is super common) and AP 2/3 (super common). That's a serious, serious problem.

Against a S6+ AP3-, a space marine is not any tougher than a grot. So, does that mean the grot and marines are similarly useful?
Calling S6+ AP3- weapons “super common” seems a bit mad too.

It doesn't have to be AP 3. Just S6. Marines get sandpapered away by making them save more than they can possibly make.

Tacticals, probably. Battle Sisters need some buffs

Martel732 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I have to give it to the marines. I like sisters and I think they have a little bit better weapon choices, plus Acts of Faith are awesome, but Marines just seem to be tougher against most firepower that isn't AP2/3 as well as being a little better in CC.

They're not any tougher against S6+ (which is super common) and AP 2/3 (super common). That's a serious, serious problem.

Not really. They both die the same. Also, against S4/5, the +1 Toughness is a big boost, especially in CC. Anything hitting you with S6+ and AP 2/3 is gonna wipe you out, no matter if your SoB or SM.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

How is ATSKNF a liability?

Pretty much any time I lose a hth, I want my squad swept so I can shoot them some more.

And if its their turn, they get to shoot you more, or grab an objective, or charge another unit.

 DarkLink wrote:
How is ATSKNF a liability?

It's a toss up.

If you fall back at the end of an opponent's turn, you get to shoot them and charge again.

If you fall back at the end of your turn, they get to shoot you then charge again.

Depending on timing you can get a huge bonus or a huge deficit in combat.

Nothing but good in the Shooting Phase though.

Pass. I'll take the benefit of not having my units get swept versus maybe not being able to shoot that target. Yeah, it sucks sometimes, but not having 10 man units swept is better.

In basically every possible situation you can conceive, ATSKNF is far better in every way than no ATSKNF. The one and only time it could be construed as objectively worse is if you've got like one Marine left locked in combat and you want to shoot the enemy unit even if it costs you that one Marine, but that's a situation you have no control over anyways and the number of times ATSKNF benefits you far outweights the rare occasion like that where it doesn't.

I'm not convinced. I've wished many times that my units didn't have ATSKNF. It has rarely benefited me in the shooting phase, because my units get wiped out a lot.

I'm not one to throw out L2P, but how are they getting wiped out a lot if you have ATSKNF? How does not having ATSKNF make losing units better?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're not any tougher against S6+ (which is super common) and AP 2/3 (super common). That's a serious, serious problem.

Against a S6+ AP3-, a space marine is not any tougher than a grot. So, does that mean the grot and marines are similarly useful?
Calling S6+ AP3- weapons “super common” seems a bit mad too.

It doesn't have to be AP 3. Just S6. Marines get sandpapered away by making them save more than they can possibly make.

So? Against S6, it doesn't matter what their toughness is unless its T6, and I highly doubt anyone wants T5/6 marines and T6/7 Bikes running around.

Battle Sisters any time. Sure, they could use a little buff - but at least I don't hear SoB players call them a "tax" on the army. When my Dominions or Seraphim hit a big target it's usually the trailing SoB squad that mops up the crippled remains with a bolter salvo at rapid fire range + Hflamer and flamer/melta. The specialists are free to move toward the next soon-to-be-dead target.

Then again, marine players crying about TacSquads being bad always seem to consider the squad alone in a vacuum.

Spetulhu wrote:
Battle Sisters any time. Sure, they could use a little buff - but at least I don't hear SoB players call them a "tax" on the army. When my Dominions or Seraphim hit a big target it's usually the trailing SoB squad that mops up the crippled remains with a bolter salvo at rapid fire range + Hflamer and flamer/melta. The specialists are free to move toward the next soon-to-be-dead target.

Then again, marine players crying about TacSquads being bad always seem to consider the squad alone in a vacuum.

Honestly, Tac Marines are far from bad. They're just mediocre. I think people expect too much from them since they are the face of the Space Marine faction and to an extent 40k.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm not convinced. I've wished many times that my units didn't have ATSKNF. It has rarely benefited me in the shooting phase, because my units get wiped out a lot.

...huh? I'm... not following your logic.

ATSKNF has nothing to do with units getting wiped out or not. If a unit gets killed, it gets killed just as easily without ATSKNF as with it. But if you survive, ATSKNF means you will stay in the fight, while units without it have a chance of running away, often for good. You can beat certain armies by forcing morale checks and watching as their units run off the board. ATSKNF is the next best thing to Fearless at preventing that. In the shooting phase, it's literally always better to have ATSKNF.

In combat, sweeping advance is one of the major reasons certain armies, in particular CSM, are bad in combat. No one runs power armor CSM because while they're not dissimilar in most regards to loyalist Marines, the lack of ATSKNF means that half the time all the points you spent on that unit will be worthless when you lose combat and get swept in the first round. Have that happen to you a few times and you might change your mind. Sisters, for example, fold like wet paper in assault. Tactical Marines, on the other hand, will at least tie stuff up and put a few wounds on things. And if you lose combat, you can still run, just not at the expense of a sweeping advance.

Spetulhu wrote:
but at least I don't hear SoB players call them a "tax" on the army.

That is because the army barely includes anything else.

I voted for Battle Sisters and here's why:

Most of the 'benefits' of the Marine stat line and special rules aren't all that beneficial (at least to Tacticals which is what we are talking about). The S and I are mostly a waste on Tacticals since they only (mostly) matter in combat, which they aren't exactly great at (but still better than SoB). The T4 is nice to have since higher T is almost always better, regardless of circumstances. ATSKNF can be both a benefit and a curse, so I call it a wash. The biggest advantage the Tacticals have over the Battle Sisters is being able to take Drop Pods as DT (which isn't exactly unique to Tacticals and just about anything put in a DP is better than not). The advantages the Battle Sisters have are that they start at 5 models and can take 2 Special Weapons and a Combi without having a 5 model tax to unlock anything. As was mentioned earlier, for about the same price as a kitted out 10 man Tactical squad, the Battle Sisters can get 2 squads of 5 with 2 Special Weapons each. Sure the Tacticals can Combat Squad, but the Sisters would still have them outgunned on Specials.

Spetulhu wrote:
Sure, they could use a little buff - but at least I don't hear SoB players call them a "tax" on the army.

Actually, if you remember either under the WH and WD Codex, many, myself included, did consider Battle Sisters the "tax" we took to get the good stuff. Under either of those Codexes, I'd say the Tacticals would be better. But now with the 6th edition Codex, I'd say the Battle Sisters are superior.

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
IThe advantages the Battle Sisters have are that they start at 5 models and can take 2 Special Weapons and a Combi without having a 5 model tax to unlock anything. As was mentioned earlier, for about the same price as a kitted out 10 man Tactical squad, the Battle Sisters can get 2 squads of 5 with 2 Special Weapons each. Sure the Tacticals can Combat Squad, but the Sisters would still have them outgunned on Specials.

But, what about the choices of Specials?

Sisters can get flamers, meltas heavy flamers, multi-meltas and heavy bolters.

Marines can get Meltas, flamers, plasmaguns, grav guns, multi-meltas, heavy bolters, missile launchers, plasma cannons and lascannons.

Do the extra options marines get not matter?

Your mileage may vary, and grav weapons do tip it a little in the Marines' favour... the thing is, the advantage of plasmaguns is directly countered by the number of meltaguns we get instead.

 vipoid wrote:

But, what about the choices of Specials?
Sisters can get flamers, meltas heavy flamers, multi-meltas and heavy bolters.
Marines can get Meltas, flamers, plasmaguns, grav guns, multi-meltas, heavy bolters, missile launchers, plasma cannons and lascannons.

I'm not sure what those other gibberish words you typed are, but there's only 3 weapons in the universe. Bolter, Melta, and Flamer.

All Hail the HOLY TRINITY!!! lol

 DarkLink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm not convinced. I've wished many times that my units didn't have ATSKNF. It has rarely benefited me in the shooting phase, because my units get wiped out a lot.

...huh? I'm... not following your logic.

ATSKNF has nothing to do with units getting wiped out or not. If a unit gets killed, it gets killed just as easily without ATSKNF as with it. But if you survive, ATSKNF means you will stay in the fight, while units without it have a chance of running away, often for good. You can beat certain armies by forcing morale checks and watching as their units run off the board. ATSKNF is the next best thing to Fearless at preventing that. In the shooting phase, it's literally always better to have ATSKNF.

In combat, sweeping advance is one of the major reasons certain armies, in particular CSM, are bad in combat. No one runs power armor CSM because while they're not dissimilar in most regards to loyalist Marines, the lack of ATSKNF means that half the time all the points you spent on that unit will be worthless when you lose combat and get swept in the first round. Have that happen to you a few times and you might change your mind. Sisters, for example, fold like wet paper in assault. Tactical Marines, on the other hand, will at least tie stuff up and put a few wounds on things. And if you lose combat, you can still run, just not at the expense of a sweeping advance.

Stop and think about what I just said. Yes, in theory it's better to have ATSKNF in the shooting phase, but I rarely get to use it in the shooting phase, because I either pass LD or my unit gets wiped. No benefit from ATSKNF there.

In combat, I WANT to be wiped. Tac marines are never going to beat any squad in hth, so I'd rather have that liability off the table so I can shoot my opponent some more.

I have voluntarily played games with ATSKNF turned off, and it made very little difference on the outcome of the game. At least as far as my opponent and I could. He shot at me, and I picked my models up. Same as usual.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
IThe advantages the Battle Sisters have are that they start at 5 models and can take 2 Special Weapons and a Combi without having a 5 model tax to unlock anything. As was mentioned earlier, for about the same price as a kitted out 10 man Tactical squad, the Battle Sisters can get 2 squads of 5 with 2 Special Weapons each. Sure the Tacticals can Combat Squad, but the Sisters would still have them outgunned on Specials.

But, what about the choices of Specials?

Sisters can get flamers, meltas heavy flamers, multi-meltas and heavy bolters.

Marines can get Meltas, flamers, plasmaguns, grav guns, multi-meltas, heavy bolters, missile launchers, plasma cannons and lascannons.

Do the extra options marines get not matter?

Not really, because they can't get enough to matter. Grey Hunters at least get double special.

I voted for Battle Sisters.

What exactly are Tactical Marines wrecking in assault to make their ability a big selling point? With Battle Sisters, I almost never, ever assault since I'm not good at it. And if I get assaulted, I want to lose so I can shoot at it on my next turn -- ATSKNF might not let that happen. And lets be fair, if Tacticals get assaulted, they're probably dead.

While the 6++ isn't a huge deal, if you were told you had a 16% chance to win the lottery, you'd be buying a ticket yesterday. Granted, the 6++ is much more useful on their vehicles, but still, always ignoring 1/6 of the wounds headed your way, no matter what they are, is very nice.

Battle Sisters also offer more flexibility in model counts. You can take 2 basic 5-woman units to fill up your troop slots, or take units of 20 battle sisters in a single slot.

Trebloc wrote:
While the 6++ isn't a huge deal, if you were told you had a 16% chance to win the lottery, you'd be buying a ticket yesterday.

If the prize to get into the lottery was about as high as how much you would win, not really.

Remember, that 6++ only works against AP3- weapons when not in cover.

vipoid wrote:

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
IThe advantages the Battle Sisters have are that they start at 5 models and can take 2 Special Weapons and a Combi without having a 5 model tax to unlock anything. As was mentioned earlier, for about the same price as a kitted out 10 man Tactical squad, the Battle Sisters can get 2 squads of 5 with 2 Special Weapons each. Sure the Tacticals can Combat Squad, but the Sisters would still have them outgunned on Specials.

But, what about the choices of Specials?

Sisters can get flamers, meltas heavy flamers, multi-meltas and heavy bolters.

Marines can get Meltas, flamers, plasmaguns, grav guns, multi-meltas, heavy bolters, missile launchers, plasma cannons and lascannons.

Do the extra options marines get not matter?

IMO, no, not really. As mentioned elsewhere, it is the ability to take 2 Special Weapons in such a squad to be able to specialize that makes the Battle Sisters more potent.

Furyou Miko wrote:Your mileage may vary, and grav weapons do tip it a little in the Marines' favour... the thing is, the advantage of plasmaguns is directly countered by the number of meltaguns we get instead.

This as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
IThe advantages the Battle Sisters have are that they start at 5 models and can take 2 Special Weapons and a Combi without having a 5 model tax to unlock anything. As was mentioned earlier, for about the same price as a kitted out 10 man Tactical squad, the Battle Sisters can get 2 squads of 5 with 2 Special Weapons each. Sure the Tacticals can Combat Squad, but the Sisters would still have them outgunned on Specials.

But, what about the choices of Specials?

Sisters can get flamers, meltas heavy flamers, multi-meltas and heavy bolters.

Marines can get Meltas, flamers, plasmaguns, grav guns, multi-meltas, heavy bolters, missile launchers, plasma cannons and lascannons.

Do the extra options marines get not matter?

Not really, because they can't get enough to matter. Grey Hunters at least get double special.

This again. One of the many reasons Grey Hunters are considered to be better than Tacticals is their ability to take two Special Weapons in a squad. The same can be said about Battle Sisters in comparison to Tacticals.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Battle Sisters any time. Sure, they could use a little buff - but at least I don't hear SoB players call them a "tax" on the army. When my Dominions or Seraphim hit a big target it's usually the trailing SoB squad that mops up the crippled remains with a bolter salvo at rapid fire range + Hflamer and flamer/melta. The specialists are free to move toward the next soon-to-be-dead target.

Then again, marine players crying about TacSquads being bad always seem to consider the squad alone in a vacuum.

Honestly, Tac Marines are far from bad. They're just mediocre. I think people expect too much from them since they are the face of the Space Marine faction and to an extent 40k.

If you've read just about any 40k novels you probably have much too high expectations for marines in general. Marines are supposed to be demi-gods that can kill 100 orks apiece with one arm tied behind their back. A terminator is essentially immortal, anything short of a titan stepping on them. Marines aren't bad, they're just not what fluff makes them out to be.

 DarkLink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm not convinced. I've wished many times that my units didn't have ATSKNF. It has rarely benefited me in the shooting phase, because my units get wiped out a lot.

...huh? I'm... not following your hate.

fixed dat for you