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This has come up in a few different threads, and I'm curious to know what the community thinks.

So, are Tactical Marines better than Battle Sisters, or vice versa?

Please give reasons.

Sisters are better then marines in the close range firefight. They put out more firepower for less points, and have some nice perks.

But marines are more versatile, can take fire better, and play in CC if needed.

Agreed - they are different

Battle Sisters have better access to firepower at 5 models, and both they and their transport have a 6+ invulnerable save. They also have a useful Act of Faith.

They are however only WS3 S3, T3 - so Marines have a serious edge there

Marines without a doubt. +1 tough, and ATSKNF and chapter tactics (that does not involve a leadership check) The Sister's invulnerable save honestly not that much of a bonus.

They're close. Sisters have better weapon options, superior transports, and AoF. Marines have drop pods, ATSKNF, and better toughness.

Grey Hunters are basically the best of both worlds.

Well, the SOB are the only ones with a mother "superior" so that answers the thread question.

Looking at each without taking into account their army, Tactical Marines seem better for being able to split into two 5 man squads, improved statline and ATSKNF seems to win-out over the modest cost decrease of sisters.

it depends on how you are using them and what they are required to do in a game. How they work with other elements within an army and what they can provide for example, a missile launcher shot or another 'faith point". Points costs and so on and so forth including such things a delivery, a drop pod or a rhino?
Different armies have different strengths and weaknesses that a player needs to play to.

Yeah, S:4 T:4 and ATSKNF really give the Marines an edge over Sisters' S:3 T:3 and 6++ save. Then you add properly chosen Chapter Tactics -- which as folks have said don't require a Ld test the way Acts of Faith do -- and the Marines are unequivocally better.

As they should be: The fluff of the setting has always made clear that the Astartes are superhuman while the Sororitas are human, albeit very, very good at what they do.

Sisters can definitely do some stuff better, primarily bringing lots of melta and flamer fire (again, entirely fitting). And they're just as good at boltgunning things to death. But their special abilities (6++ and Acts) are less reliable -- rightly, seeing as they're miracles/feats of human willpower -- and they're (rightly) more fragile.

Marines without a doubt.

The sisters are a bit cheaper, far less versatile and much less resilient. Faith abilities and a 6++ does not match Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, WS4, T4, S4, I4, Combat Squads, and a greater variety of weapons and transport/deployment options for 2ppm more.

Space Marine for an extra 2pts gets
+1 WS, +1 St, +1 T, +1 I
ATSKNF and chapter tactics

Sisters have
6++
Faith power to give them Preferred Enemy for 1 phase … if they pass a Leadership check. Can do this once per game.

From experience the Sister’s 6++ will have no effect against most weapons in the game as you will be using your 3+ save.

People forget that Sister’s fight like IG in close combat, just with a better save. Even Tactical’s can take Sisters apart in close combat.

Sister’s Rhino gets a 6++ at an increased cost of 5pts

Sisters have two special weapons on 5 girls or 10 girls. Marines have 2 ‘special’ weapons on 10 as well and can combat split.

I did some lazy math (I didn't incorporate saves, since they both have the same save) on how many wounds they'd get. I said 6 marines = 7 sisters in points.

I said both fire at non-rapid range, then at rapid (sisters use their preferred enemy now), then a round of melee.

At ranges above 12" the marines score about half an extra wound per shooting due to their toughness. 2.3 vs 2.7

At rapid (sisters using faith) they only manage to get half a wound more than marines. Something like 5.8 wounds to 5.3.

In melee marines wreck, getting over twice the wounds and at a higher initiative. 2.7 to 1.2 wounds.

So it's pretty clear marines outperform sisters for everything except for that one turn of faith. Keep in mind this is only if we take equal points worth of standard bolter models, no special weapons involved, and this doesn't incorporate loss of models as the game progresses.

Please don't rely on the accuracy of said math, was done whilst very tired.

A squad of marines also cost $40, while sisters are sitting pretty at $80

I have to give it to the marines. I like sisters and I think they have a little bit better weapon choices, plus Acts of Faith are awesome, but Marines just seem to be tougher against most firepower that isn't AP2/3 as well as being a little better in CC.

The Sisters are also not designed to be a take-all-comers military force sent to fight Xenos, Humans, Chaos, Monsters, Monstrous Xenos, Monsters of Chaos, Chaos Xenos, Xenos Chaos or all of the other sundry opponents the Space Marines fight.

Well, it's tough to argue points wise. How are we comparing them? Because 1x 10 man tac marine squad with 2 special weapons is really close to 2x 5 (wo)man squad with 4 special weapons.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I have to give it to the marines. I like sisters and I think they have a little bit better weapon choices, plus Acts of Faith are awesome, but Marines just seem to be tougher against most firepower that isn't AP2/3 as well as being a little better in CC.

They're not any tougher against S6+ (which is super common) and AP 2/3 (super common). That's a serious, serious problem.

And what will you say about your Marines being better in melee, when for the extra points of the Marines the Sisters get a Priest. Fearless, Zealot and re-rolling armour saves i think would tip the combat in the Sisters favor.

If it's Sisters vs Marines, i think Marines win. But Sisters are more useful, with better Transports, more access to Special Weapons in smaller squads, good supporting units like Priests, and preform the same as Marines do where it matters, shooting.

Martel732 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I have to give it to the marines. I like sisters and I think they have a little bit better weapon choices, plus Acts of Faith are awesome, but Marines just seem to be tougher against most firepower that isn't AP2/3 as well as being a little better in CC.

They're not any tougher against S6+ (which is super common) and AP 2/3 (super common). That's a serious, serious problem.

That's been true since...every edition ever though. That's nothing new. Against infantry weapons, many secondary vehicle weapons, light heavy weapons, and in close combat with most units, the Marines have a notable edge. The cost difference is also very small.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I have to give it to the marines. I like sisters and I think they have a little bit better weapon choices, plus Acts of Faith are awesome, but Marines just seem to be tougher against most firepower that isn't AP2/3 as well as being a little better in CC.

They're not any tougher against S6+ (which is super common) and AP 2/3 (super common). That's a serious, serious problem.

That's been true since...every edition ever though. That's nothing new. Against infantry weapons, many secondary vehicle weapons, light heavy weapons, and in close combat with most units, the Marines have a notable edge. The cost difference is also very small.

The problem is that I don't see those weapons you listed very often anymore. Tac marines end up losing most hth combats anyway, so I don't see how that's an edge. I'll take the extra shooting and bodies.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And what will you say about your Marines being better in melee, when for the extra points of the Marines the Sisters get a Priest. Fearless, Zealot and re-rolling armour saves i think would tip the combat in the Sisters favor.

That's an additional unit, not something inherent, requiring additional investment larger than the gap in cost between tac marines in sisters, and only helps where they're really at their worst, doing nothing to really help where you really want them.

But Sisters are more useful, with better Transports,

Rhino's with 6++ saves? Or are we talking Repressors which often unfortunately have trouble getting play and cost as much as a Predator tank? The marines have more transport options and the Drop Pod certainly offers a whole lot more tactical flexibility and alpha strike capability.

Having a extra bolter shot or two in a squad is a poor trade for the loss in S, T, I, and ATSKNF. The long thread at the top of page illustrates the general opinion on the effectiveness of bolters.

Actually, in the closing games of 6th, I found ATSKNF to be more a liability than a help. Now that 7th has nerfed it a bit more, I'd just as soon not have ATSKNF. I also consider the S and I on marines to be basically worthless. So now we are down to T. Again, I am taking a lot of fire from S6 and above. Helps against pulse rifles, I guess. I think I'd still go with the extra wounds for the squad.

Against every basic-issue infantry weapon, from the lasgun to the bolter to the shuriken catapult to the pulse rifle, that T4 makes a difference.

In any close combat encounter, that T4 makes a difference against everything but a powerfist or MC.

Against all sorts of weapons like Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolters, Smart MIssile Systems, Punisher Cannons, Big Shootas, Burst Cannons, Devourers & Deathspitters, Stormshard Mortars, burst Warp Blast, Valkyrie rocket pods, hot-shot lasguns, heavy stubbers, storm bolters, frag missiles, etc.

T4 also allows marines to benefit from FNP (from Apothecaries or Iron Hands chapter tactics or Sanguinary Priests, etc) against all those S6 guns where T3 units would not. You want to talk about S6 being a deal-breaker on toughness, look at Dark Edlar.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, in the closing games of 6th, I found ATSKNF to be more a liability than a help. Now that 7th has nerfed it a bit more, I'd just as soon not have ATSKNF. I also consider the S and I on marines to be basically worthless. So now we are down to T. Again, I am taking a lot of fire from S6 and above. Helps against pulse rifles, I guess. I think I'd still go with the extra wounds for the squad.

How is ATSKNF a liability?

First, I'm going to assume that someone else is paying for the models.

If given a choice, between tacticals and sisters to both count as a troop choice for my preferred army (BA,) I would take sisters 100% of the time. They do the same primary role, which is running around with bolters and a couple specials, just as well as the tacs, (better on the round that they use AoF) and for less points. The tactical's are supposed to be versatile, but in practice, they just get slaughtered anytime they're in melee with anything decent anyway, so the extra WS and S mean jack all to me.

Both units have access to krak grenades against monsters and vehicles, so again, the sisters can do the same job for less points.

If my crappy troop tax unit DOES get involved in melee with some enemy melee element, I don't want them ferociously clinging to life and keeping them in combat, safe from my shooting; I want them to drop like bitches so I can shoot the hell out of whatever killed them. And sisters do that better. (heh)

Then there's also heavy weapons, which are what usually takes out my tactical's with a glance. With more sister models for less points, a template that hits three sisters vs a template that hits three tacs is already a victory for the sisters. Then there's the built in invuln save.

Like the only time when sisters actually look bad, is when you put them in a direct one-on-one with tacticals. Don't send them in alone against the unit of tacticals, and that problem is nonexistent.

With the points I could save from using sisters over tacticals, I could afford an extra model or two in an actual good unit.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, in the closing games of 6th, I found ATSKNF to be more a liability than a help. Now that 7th has nerfed it a bit more, I'd just as soon not have ATSKNF. I also consider the S and I on marines to be basically worthless. So now we are down to T. Again, I am taking a lot of fire from S6 and above. Helps against pulse rifles, I guess. I think I'd still go with the extra wounds for the squad.

How is ATSKNF a liability?

It's a toss up.

If you fall back at the end of an opponent's turn, you get to shoot them and charge again.

If you fall back at the end of your turn, they get to shoot you then charge again.

Depending on timing you can get a huge bonus or a huge deficit in combat.

Nothing but good in the Shooting Phase though.

The problem you outlined is in large part an artifact of the game using an IGO-UGO system as opposed to some kind of more realistic and dynamic alternating turn structure.

changemod wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, in the closing games of 6th, I found ATSKNF to be more a liability than a help. Now that 7th has nerfed it a bit more, I'd just as soon not have ATSKNF. I also consider the S and I on marines to be basically worthless. So now we are down to T. Again, I am taking a lot of fire from S6 and above. Helps against pulse rifles, I guess. I think I'd still go with the extra wounds for the squad.

How is ATSKNF a liability?

It's a toss up.

If you fall back at the end of an opponent's turn, you get to shoot them and charge again.

If you fall back at the end of your turn, they get to shoot you then charge again.

Depending on timing you can get a huge bonus or a huge deficit in combat.

Nothing but good in the Shooting Phase though.

In basically every possible situation you can conceive, ATSKNF is far better in every way than no ATSKNF. The one and only time it could be construed as objectively worse is if you've got like one Marine left locked in combat and you want to shoot the enemy unit even if it costs you that one Marine, but that's a situation you have no control over anyways and the number of times ATSKNF benefits you far outweights the rare occasion like that where it doesn't.

Martel732 wrote:
They're not any tougher against S6+ (which is super common) and AP 2/3 (super common). That's a serious, serious problem.

Against a S6+ AP3-, a space marine is not any tougher than a grot. So, does that mean the grot and marines are similarly useful?
Calling S6+ AP3- weapons “super common” seems a bit mad too.

changemod wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, in the closing games of 6th, I found ATSKNF to be more a liability than a help. Now that 7th has nerfed it a bit more, I'd just as soon not have ATSKNF. I also consider the S and I on marines to be basically worthless. So now we are down to T. Again, I am taking a lot of fire from S6 and above. Helps against pulse rifles, I guess. I think I'd still go with the extra wounds for the squad.

How is ATSKNF a liability?

It's a toss up.

If you fall back at the end of an opponent's turn, you get to shoot them and charge again.

If you fall back at the end of your turn, they get to shoot you then charge again.

Depending on timing you can get a huge bonus or a huge deficit in combat.

Nothing but good in the Shooting Phase though.

About the only you'd fall back in your own turn is if you lost combat. If that's the case, the above is still infinitely preferable to getting caught, swept, and annihilated. The only other thing I can think of immediately is if you putzed a blast weapon and killed a bunch of your own dudes, in which case, it's a self inflicted wound that's still easier to recover from with ATSNKF than without it.