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 Hubris wrote:
Never really got the big deal over the not really name changes, i still call them Storm Troopers and the Imperial Guard, in the same way i still call Carcharadons, Space Sharks.

I don't really mind if GW rebrands them in a minor way to help sell or copyright them more.

Yeah I didn't mind the name changes either; they got a boner for Pig Latin, so what? At least now the Imperium actual uses languages that's consistent, somewhat.

However I do personally prefer the old storm trooper models. A shame they had to discontinue them, instead of making them plastic. Also the Karskins are gone too. The Tempestus scions simply look too different to convert to the old models easily now.

Mix 'n match them inside sqads!
At least, that's what I do

I love both looks, but I'm sad at the helm chznge on the Scions: whiel berets are cool, the fact that they lost their awesome rebreathers makes me sad.

Tempetus scions are more like the official name for them or that what other people say to respect them . Like people call the space marines the adeptus astartes

Did they ever change the "There are only 10000 Storm Troopers in the galaxy" bit of fluff?

Not that I am aware of. Their origins and function did not change, they're still the best of the boys' club from the Schola Progenium, afaik.

It's from thread like these that I realised that Nerd culture is only second to Gran'pa culture in its resistence to little changes without any concequences. Yes Tempestus Scions and Stormtrooper are the same thing. They just changed the name for copyright and brand recognition issues. If you analyse the words, you will realise they meen the same thing. Their fluff is also pretty much the same thing. It's just a little bit more developped and of course much more violent than necessary.

The name change doesn't bother me, but I can kinda sorta understand why some people get bugged by stuff. Its easy to get used to thinking/using certain terminology if you've been doing it for years/decades, and suddenly being presented with stuff changing out of the blue can be unsettling (people really don't like uncertainty in things, even entertainment-oriented stuff.)

It doesn't help that so much modern fiction gets obsessed with issues like 'canon' and 'what is the true interpretation' of various stuff. 40K never has seemed to care about that - and it can be an advantage in some ways - but if you're used to having a concrete 'canon policy' dictating what is or isn't true, it can be hard not to wish for the same in 40K.

While it's a meme, I feel this sums up my thoughts on the name change. I still call 'em guard, the books still call them guard. They're guard, as even GW still continues to call them such.

epronovost wrote:
Their fluff is also pretty much the same thing. It's just a little bit more developped and of course much more violent than necessary.

No it isn't. The previous fluff was that stormtroopers were the elite of the elite, the best-trained human soldiers with the best equipment. Sure, you could assume that the training process was as unpleasant as anything else in the Imperium, but there was no sign at all that it was pointlessly brutal. Same thing with commissars: yes, they execute cowards and failures, but only because harsh discipline is the only way the common IG regiments have any hope of winning. The new "codex" replaces the old fluff and turns stormtroopers and commissars into the last survivors of a sadistic torture system, willing to mindlessly slaughter anyone they're ordered to kill and so mentally damaged that they're little more than robots with guns. Or chaos cultists.

Oh well, thankfully I still have my DKoK grenadiers, where the "stormtroopers" are promoted from the veteran survivors of the regular infantry.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Did they ever change the "There are only 10000 Storm Troopers in the galaxy" bit of fluff?

They haven't specifically come right out and said so, but I think the last time it was mentioned IIRC was 2nd ed (back when GW still thought a war with mere millions of troops no bigger than WW2's eastern front was a pivotal galactic mega-conflict, like the wars for Armageddon) and I think they've simply subsequently ignored it.

With the way the fluff of the new book is written, it contradicts the old fluff of a single Stormtrooper regiment, and unless the Scion regiments are only a few dozen men each (as opposed to the regiments of the Imperial Guard which are many thousands of men) then it would appear that the "10,000" number is effectively impossible.

 Peregrine wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Their fluff is also pretty much the same thing. It's just a little bit more developped and of course much more violent than necessary.

No it isn't. The previous fluff was that stormtroopers were the elite of the elite, the best-trained human soldiers with the best equipment. Sure, you could assume that the training process was as unpleasant as anything else in the Imperium, but there was no sign at all that it was pointlessly brutal. Same thing with commissars: yes, they execute cowards and failures, but only because harsh discipline is the only way the common IG regiments have any hope of winning. The new "codex" replaces the old fluff and turns stormtroopers and commissars into the last survivors of a sadistic torture system, willing to mindlessly slaughter anyone they're ordered to kill and so mentally damaged that they're little more than robots with guns. Or chaos cultists.

Oh well, thankfully I still have my DKoK grenadiers, where the "stormtroopers" are promoted from the veteran survivors of the regular infantry.

Oddly enough I might be able to deal with pointless violence to turn soldiers into mindless killing robots from the Death Korps

But, that aside, even if you can deal with the stuff not being totally bonkers, the execution of the concept itself is just so BAD in the Tempestus book that it's just difficult to get through.

It just reads like "that special kid who's parents had to have a special conference with the teacher"'s bad fanfic

hmmmm IOM Einsatzgruppen...glad I did not buy the codex...

I liked my stormtoopers as SAS..Rangers..GSG-9 kinda versions, oh well I have a ton of the old school ones..and can use 3rd party stuff if I so choose.

RIP stormtroopers "Glory boys"

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
hmmmm IOM Einsatzgruppen...glad I did not buy the codex...

I liked my stormtoopers as SAS..Rangers..GSG-9 kinda versions, oh well I have a ton of the old school ones..and can use 3rd party stuff if I so choose.

RIP stormtroopers "Glory boys"

Eh, I don't think I'd really use that terminology (though we are also talking about "Stormtroopers"). When they do bits of dialogue and descriptions/visuals that *aren't* in the Schola, it's still very much an "SAS" vibe, you get berets and individualized regimental markings and the like (though, going back to the earlier remark, they Scion kit does come with a WW1-esque pickelhaube-style armored helmet for the Sergeant to hark back to the original WW1 era "Stormtrooper" thing), best thing I could equate them with would be kinda like the Peacekeepers from Farscape is the vibe I think GW was going for. They just *WAYYY* overdid the Schola absurdities.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
hmmmm IOM Einsatzgruppen...glad I did not buy the codex...

I liked my stormtoopers as SAS..Rangers..GSG-9 kinda versions, oh well I have a ton of the old school ones..and can use 3rd party stuff if I so choose.

RIP stormtroopers "Glory boys"

Eh, I don't think I'd really use that terminology (though we are also talking about "Stormtroopers"). When they do bits of dialogue and descriptions/visuals that *aren't* in the Schola, it's still very much an "SAS" vibe, you get berets and individualized regimental markings and the like (though, going back to the earlier remark, they Scion kit does come with a WW1-esque pickelhaube-style armored helmet for the Sergeant to hark back to the original WW1 era "Stormtrooper" thing), best thing I could equate them with would be kinda like the Peacekeepers from Farscape is the vibe I think GW was going for. They just *WAYYY* overdid the Schola absurdities.

Goddammit man, now I want to re-read Redemption Corps. Although it's not like that's a bad thing, probably the best IG novel ever written.

First thing I thought of when I saw the new Tempestus Scion (AKA. Storm Troopers) artwork in the new IG/AM codex was the WWI german army uniforms. .
I'm not sure why, but it just didn't look like WWII German storm troopers to me.
And I don't really think they changed a lot of the Storm Trooper fluffs, it's just the Schola Progenium got a major rework, everything else (apart from the looks and name) of the Storm Trooper remained pretty much the same, IMHO.

What bugs me with the Stormtroopers is it wasn't just an overall faction name which is specifically mentioned as only being the formal name; GW basically said feel free to ignore the AM title in your own headcanon, and the codex itself rarely references it; it's still the Imperial Guard to just about everyone involved. The stormtroopers, on the otherhand, really force the faux latin and bizarre naming conventions; it's all Militarum Tempestus Scions in the codex, Guard and their own special one, lead by Tempestors and Tempestor Primes? I was never bothered by the generic "Company Commander" and "Platoon Commander" designations in the IG codex because it flat out says that's a consistent bureaucratic title, and actual common names for various ranks vary between regiments, but the Tempestor stuff sounds bad, looks bad, and means, approximately "Stormer?"

It's dumb, at the end of the day, and breaks immersion for me, not dramatically, and I'll still use my 20 odd Kasrkin and kitbashed Praetorian stormtroopers, and call them as such, but he whole thing rubs me the wrong way, both in execution (consider that we have a Segmentum Tempestus already, if anything their particular naming convention increases confusion - hell, when the rumours started coming out, people thought it was a variant Guard army for the particular segmentum) and how, at least for the Imperial Guard, it was totally unnecessary.

Let's consider why here for a moment:

If you google search "Imperial Guard," you're going to get a mix of four results (along with a few cat pictures, because google); Napoleon's Old Guard Grenadiers, a few of Palpatine's Royal Guard from Starwars, a few Imperial Japanese references, and then a bunch of links to and pictures of Cadians, Catachans, Death Korps and so on. GW already had brand recognition for Imperial Guard. Not as much as Space Marines and Chaos, but at least within the nerd community, I'd wager most people will know what you're referring to with "40k Imperial Guard," especially post-Dawn of War 1 and 2.

Being able to copyright the name means nothing post-Chapterhouse. For the aftermarket industry, they're not completely, 100% allowed to say that part x or range y is designed to be compatible with GW product z. While yes, no one can write a book about the "Astra Militarum" or "Tempestus Scions," no one was going to anyways, even within Black Library; it's going to keep on being Imperial Guard.

It hurts brand recognition. We've got material, books, videogames, WDs and codexes going back 20 something years all referring to the Imperial Guard and Imperial Storm Troopers, with nary a mention of any faux latin name beyond the Departmento Munitorum (which i always got backwards as a kid with the Ministorum, c'est la vie). Whether you stumble upon an old codex, trawl through Ebay listings, pick up a Gaunt's Ghosts novel on a whim, any introduction a player might have outside of the blood codex is going to say Imperial Guard, the Hammer of the Emperor, or something along those lines.

Quite frankly, I see no real reason for the change other than to irritate people, because it really does accomplish nothing.

I switch between Scions and Stormies all the time.

However, I rarely if ever use the name hotshot lasgun, because hellgun sounds so much meaner.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I switch between Scions and Stormies all the time.

However, I rarely if ever use the name hotshot lasgun, because hellgun sounds so much meaner.

And traditionally, Hellguns are the weapons of stormtroopers, with the power cables and such, while a "hotshot" lasgun i simply one firing an overcharged power pack, like the pre-Kasrkin stormtrooper models. Though I think that's a byproduct of how often the hellgun/hotshot statline has changed more than anything else; the last edition is the first time it stayed the same (unfortunately).

Well the previous codex used to call the hotshot a hellgun in its own description and the pre-kasrkins models came out while the stormtroopers were armed with hellguns.

Meanwhile, the very first stormtroopers had cable-fed guns, but had weapons using hotshot laser.

And now we're back at hotshot weapons on models using tubes.

Oh well.

Tempestus Scion more translates to 'storm child' than 'storm trooper' though.

I do find it amusing just how many people in this thread don't realise that the Stormtroopers have always been Progena (the previous name for those raised in the schola progenium before they introduced 'scion' for whatever reason). Previously, it was "The Stormtrooper Regiment", where all the progena who were better at fighting than anything else at the Schola Progenium got deployed to (Boys who show leadership and faith go to the Commissariat, while girls who show the same go to the Sororitas)... the only exception being the Karskin, who were originally released as a special unit for the Eye of Terror campaign, then got adopted as Stormtroopers, despite actually being more like Grenadiers (Veterans with Carapace Armour).

I always assumed they swapped over to Hotshot Lasgun over Hellgun to avoid people getting confused when they started calling Imperial warp-based weaponry 'Hell'-something, like the Hellrifle.

They probably just failed to figured out which meaning of "progeny" the first writer who came up with the Schola Progenium was going for.

Alternatively: they really did mean "offspring" when they used the word "progeny", and the new writer just thought it'd be fun to keep calling those brats "kids".

Cadet A: "The honorable Abbot, in the name of our holy undying lordship, could you stop calling us 'kids'?"
Abbot: "What? How dare you -- a kid who has not killed a single xeno, and has thus far failed to purge but a single heretic, questions me -- a faithful, matured, and experienced servant to the emperor? You are to recite the litany of his sacred commands 1000 times, running up and down the square, while being electro-wiped by a servo-skull immediately, Now off you go -- kid."

They're one and the same to me. Scions just have a goofy-looking APC to call their own.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
What bugs me with the Stormtroopers is it wasn't just an overall faction name which is specifically mentioned as only being the formal name; GW basically said feel free to ignore the AM title in your own headcanon, and the codex itself rarely references it; it's still the Imperial Guard to just about everyone involved. The stormtroopers, on the otherhand, really force the faux latin and bizarre naming conventions; it's all Militarum Tempestus Scions in the codex, Guard and their own special one, lead by Tempestors and Tempestor Primes? I was never bothered by the generic "Company Commander" and "Platoon Commander" designations in the IG codex because it flat out says that's a consistent bureaucratic title, and actual common names for various ranks vary between regiments, but the Tempestor stuff sounds bad, looks bad, and means, approximately "Stormer?"

It's dumb, at the end of the day, and breaks immersion for me, not dramatically, and I'll still use my 20 odd Kasrkin and kitbashed Praetorian stormtroopers, and call them as such, but he whole thing rubs me the wrong way, both in execution (consider that we have a Segmentum Tempestus already, if anything their particular naming convention increases confusion - hell, when the rumours started coming out, people thought it was a variant Guard army for the particular segmentum) and how, at least for the Imperial Guard, it was totally unnecessary.

Let's consider why here for a moment:

If you google search "Imperial Guard," you're going to get a mix of four results (along with a few cat pictures, because google); Napoleon's Old Guard Grenadiers, a few of Palpatine's Royal Guard from Starwars, a few Imperial Japanese references, and then a bunch of links to and pictures of Cadians, Catachans, Death Korps and so on. GW already had brand recognition for Imperial Guard. Not as much as Space Marines and Chaos, but at least within the nerd community, I'd wager most people will know what you're referring to with "40k Imperial Guard," especially post-Dawn of War 1 and 2.

Being able to copyright the name means nothing post-Chapterhouse. For the aftermarket industry, they're not completely, 100% allowed to say that part x or range y is designed to be compatible with GW product z. While yes, no one can write a book about the "Astra Militarum" or "Tempestus Scions," no one was going to anyways, even within Black Library; it's going to keep on being Imperial Guard.

It hurts brand recognition. We've got material, books, videogames, WDs and codexes going back 20 something years all referring to the Imperial Guard and Imperial Storm Troopers, with nary a mention of any faux latin name beyond the Departmento Munitorum (which i always got backwards as a kid with the Ministorum, c'est la vie). Whether you stumble upon an old codex, trawl through Ebay listings, pick up a Gaunt's Ghosts novel on a whim, any introduction a player might have outside of the blood codex is going to say Imperial Guard, the Hammer of the Emperor, or something along those lines.

Quite frankly, I see no real reason for the change other than to irritate people, because it really does accomplish nothing.

All excellent points.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Tempestus Scion more translates to 'storm child' than 'storm trooper' though.

I do find it amusing just how many people in this thread don't realise that the Stormtroopers have always been Progena (the previous name for those raised in the schola progenium before they introduced 'scion' for whatever reason). Previously, it was "The Stormtrooper Regiment", where all the progena who were better at fighting than anything else at the Schola Progenium got deployed to (Boys who show leadership and faith go to the Commissariat, while girls who show the same go to the Sororitas)... the only exception being the Karskin, who were originally released as a special unit for the Eye of Terror campaign, then got adopted as Stormtroopers, despite actually being more like Grenadiers (Veterans with Carapace Armour).

The distinction between "Grenadiers" and "carapace vets" didn't come about until later. In fact, the original "Grenadier" doctrine allowed Stormtroopers as troops and had nothing to do with Vets. The Kasrkin have the large backpack batteries and powercables of a Hellgun/Hotshot Lasgun as opposed to a basic lasgun on their models as well.

The Grenadier concept was also expanded to basically mean "stormtrooper equivalents" but within a given regiment, Kasrkin being the poster child, resulting now in things like the Death Korps Grenadiers and whatnot.

One of those things that kind of gets ignored now as the rules don't support it or reference it, with the death of regiment customization in 5th edition.

I do so miss that gloriously awful but damned flavourful 4th ed book. Sure, you lost more than you won most of the time and ended up with silly-expensive Guardsmen, but they were *your* guardsmen, not Cadians, not Catachans (unless you wanted them to be,) they really were whatever regiment you wanted them to be.

The Stormtroopers were always part of the schola, were they not? I mean proper stormtroopers, not regimental variants, such as Kasrkin, DKOK Grenadiers, etc etc.

I think the over the top brutality in their training might be a reference to the Saudaukar. They were not a particularly...pleasant bunch.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
The Grenadier concept was also expanded to basically mean "stormtrooper equivalents" but within a given regiment, Kasrkin being the poster child, resulting now in things like the Death Korps Grenadiers and whatnot.

One of those things that kind of gets ignored now as the rules don't support it or reference it, with the death of regiment customization in 5th edition.

I do so miss that gloriously awful but damned flavourful 4th ed book. Sure, you lost more than you won most of the time and ended up with silly-expensive Guardsmen, but they were *your* guardsmen, not Cadians, not Catachans (unless you wanted them to be,) they really were whatever regiment you wanted them to be.

The old book had some very nice customization, the flavor was really well done. The problem was that everything was too expensive (seeing Vostroyan infantry squads costing nearly 150pts each after kit was amusing, with no transport), and there were huge gaps in capabilities in the army. You could really tailor a force very well to any fluff concept, it just wouldn't function on a table

This is to say nothing of the numerous other issues the IG had with the core rules (tracked tanks being complete crap, area terrain blocking LoS, consolidation into CC, Escalation deployment keeping all your big stuff in reserve, etc).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Stormtroopers were always part of the schola, were they not? I mean proper stormtroopers, not regimental variants, such as Kasrkin, DKOK Grenadiers, etc etc.

I think the over the top brutality in their training might be a reference to the Saudaukar. They were not a particularly...pleasant bunch.

The Sardaukar to be fair were recruited from the most violent criminals in the Empire on a nuclear wasteland world, not children

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Stormtroopers were always part of the schola, were they not? I mean proper stormtroopers, not regimental variants, such as Kasrkin, DKOK Grenadiers, etc etc.

I think the over the top brutality in their training might be a reference to the Saudaukar. They were not a particularly...pleasant bunch.

The Saudaurkar also got their butts kicked by the Space Bedouin though.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Stormtroopers were always part of the schola, were they not? I mean proper stormtroopers, not regimental variants, such as Kasrkin, DKOK Grenadiers, etc etc.

I think the over the top brutality in their training might be a reference to the Saudaukar. They were not a particularly...pleasant bunch.

The Saudaurkar also got their butts kicked by the Space Bedouin though.

Yeah, but that was by supernatural Fremen.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Stormtroopers were always part of the schola, were they not? I mean proper stormtroopers, not regimental variants, such as Kasrkin, DKOK Grenadiers, etc etc.

I think the over the top brutality in their training might be a reference to the Saudaukar. They were not a particularly...pleasant bunch.

The Saudaurkar also got their butts kicked by the Space Bedouin though.

Yeah, but that was by supernatural Fremen.

And those Space Bedouin turned out to be ever so much nicer than the Saudaukar.

Herbert had a thing for genocide, matches up nicely with 40k....

I dont understand why they did it in the first place...
everyone who wants to counterfeight or sell addons/replacement bits/kits will just use storm troopers and imperial guard names because they are not protected, and they are recognized instantly. Quite the maximus failerus.

Why did they call them Scions? Kasrkin is much better IMO.