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natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

Where have you seen non-sergeant tactical marines wielding chainswords. Secondly, Assault Marines should have access to all special weapons if you ask me.

But that just makes them EVEN MORE like Tactical squads with their bolter swapped for a chainsword!

So really, ultimately, the answer is simple:

Allow Tacticals to swap their bolters for chainswords, and rename the unit entry "Tactical / Ground Assault Squad", because the same unit entry describes both fieldable units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

Where have you seen non-sergeant tactical marines wielding chainswords. Secondly, Assault Marines should have access to all special weapons if you ask me.

Dawn of War 2. Every SM Codex prior to the 6e one. Deathwatch.

Well, since assault marines can drop their jump packs now, why should they still be fast attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

Where have you seen non-sergeant tactical marines wielding chainswords. Secondly, Assault Marines should have access to all special weapons if you ask me.

Tactical squads with their bolter swapped for a chainsword!

So really, ultimately, the answer is simple:

Allow Tacticals to swap their bolters for chainswords, and rename the unit entry "Tactical / Ground Assault Squad", because the same unit entry describes both fieldable units.

No it does,'t they can't take heavies. Also, they get free rhinos and drop pods.

Honestly, I think assault marines, bike troops (and allow a full ten man squad), and devastator squads should all just be moved into troop choices. In most cases people will still choose tacticals or possibly scouts over these other options due to points reasons unless their army better supports the other units. Which are basically the armies that could already take them as troop choices. If a certain hq makes a unit like assault marines troop options allow the closest fast, heavy or elite option in that place or give a benificial unit rule to them instead. vanguard for assault, sternguard for devastors, and either scout bikes or attack bike squads for bikes.

By your logic I would love to have Long Fangs as troops! They have counter attack for cc and fire discipline to split fire!

 Filch wrote:
By your logic I would love to have Long Fangs as troops! They have counter attack for cc and fire discipline to split fire!

And yes while your long fangs have some good rules, they are also a more expensive unit. You would still be paying for them with all the heavy/special weapons options and you are limited to a max of 6 models in the unit so no combat squading. You also get one morespecial/heavy than a devastator squad but again that costs more points. A typical space marine devastator squad maybe doesnt get those nice rules but they can go up to 10 men so they have more wounds and they can combat squad if needed. I would say in the end it balances out. Yeah basic space marines are a bit more expensive but I think when they get a new dex their points will drop like we have seen in other space marine armies. And like I said armies that are built to favor certain units will take those units.

 NorseSig wrote:

 Filch wrote:
By your logic I would love to have Long Fangs as troops! They have counter attack for cc and fire discipline to split fire!

And yes while your long fangs have some good rules, they are also a more expensive unit. You would still be paying for them with all the heavy/special weapons options and you are limited to a max of 6 models in the unit so no combat squading. You also get one morespecial/heavy than a devastator squad but again that costs more points. A typical space marine devastator squad maybe doesnt get those nice rules but they can go up to 10 men so they have more wounds and they can combat squad if needed. I would say in the end it balances out. Yeah basic space marines are a bit more expensive but I think when they get a new dex their points will drop like we have seen in other space marine armies. And like I said armies that are built to favor certain units will take those units.

If we're going all the way in this direction can I have Scourges in Troops? Dark Reapers? Pathfinders?

Honestly what is and isn't in Troops barely matters in 40k today, the way Detachments are going.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Filch wrote:
By your logic I would love to have Long Fangs as troops! They have counter attack for cc and fire discipline to split fire!

And yes while your long fangs have some good rules, they are also a more expensive unit. You would still be paying for them with all the heavy/special weapons options and you are limited to a max of 6 models in the unit so no combat squading. You also get one morespecial/heavy than a devastator squad but again that costs more points. A typical space marine devastator squad maybe doesnt get those nice rules but they can go up to 10 men so they have more wounds and they can combat squad if needed. I would say in the end it balances out. Yeah basic space marines are a bit more expensive but I think when they get a new dex their points will drop like we have seen in other space marine armies. And like I said armies that are built to favor certain units will take those units.

If we're going all the way in this direction can I have Scourges in Troops? Dark Reapers? Pathfinders?

Honestly what is and isn't in Troops barely matters in 40k today, the way Detachments are going.

To some degree you are correct I think, but I just don't feel like Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar need a boost of any kind. Space Marines however, should have more options in the troops department to promote more build diversity. Some people may want bikes as troops but not have to take a biker Captain/Chapter Master. I must admit that I am one of those who thinks all the armies should be equal and balanced and all options be vialble for a given army. Moving the devastators or equivilent, bikes, and assault marines helps do that in various ways. assault marines are lackluster as a fast choice, as are bike troops imo. Devastators are good but there is so much stuff that is better in an oversaturated heavy choice that they are good candidates for troops. I might consider moving the Stormraven Gunship to a fast choice for all armies not sure. I lean towards that idea because, to me, fliers are fast.

I mean, my solution in Aegis was to drop the FOC almost entirely and use 'special weapon points' the way Infinity does; if you wanted an army of all Assault Marines, Scourges, or Aspect Warriors you'd have a lower model count than everyone else and some more pressing disadvantages but you could do it.

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

Where have you seen non-sergeant tactical marines wielding chainswords. Secondly, Assault Marines should have access to all special weapons if you ask me.

If you're that worried then instead of "may replace bolter with a chainsword, or take one for 1 pt" the option can say "may replace bolter with a combat knife (close combat weapon), or take one for 1 pt".
Done, simple.

Tac marines have combat knives in the fluff.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

Where have you seen non-sergeant tactical marines wielding chainswords. Secondly, Assault Marines should have access to all special weapons if you ask me.

If you're that worried then instead of "may replace bolter with a chainsword, or take one for 1 pt" the option can say "may replace bolter with a combat knife (close combat weapon), or take one for 1 pt".
Done, simple.

Tac marines have combat knives in the fluff.

csm get it for 2 ppm.

Huh, they do.

Weird, because Noise Marines get it for 1 pt... (and when I rarely use my CSMs I always use Noise Marines)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

Where have you seen non-sergeant tactical marines wielding chainswords. Secondly, Assault Marines should have access to all special weapons if you ask me.

Actually, all marines have combat knives,mint just tac squads.
If you're that worried then instead of "may replace bolter with a chainsword, or take one for 1 pt" the option can say "may replace bolter with a combat knife (close combat weapon), or take one for 1 pt".
Done, simple.

Tac marines have combat knives in the fluff.

If bikes are Troops when the HQ buys a bike and we're cool with that, I have no problem accepting assault marines that take a DT instead of jumppacks getting ObSec (From a game mechanic POV I assume the argument is for them getting ObSec, not running out of FA slots). They are still assault marines (i don't know why they are analogised with tacs). Thats like saying the bikes are like tacs (???) because they are troops in FoC. They have completely different load-out with heaps more specials. Marines equipped with boltpistol and chainsword in DTs are not faster than Tacs in DTs. I seems reasonable that they are not designated FA slot. It's not like they are taking a vehicle with assault vehicle rule so they are getting nerfed a bit as their load out is for assault.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Use Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, use Captain Korvydae.

Suddenly, ASM as troops!

The fix is already in the game folks. The above or unbound.