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Please do not think I am one of these Mat Ward following Blood Angels fanboys that is sore about assault marines being removed as troops. I've just thought of a simple solution to the problem.

This Solution Is:
Assault Squads are a Troops choice by default in a Space Marine, Blood Angels or Dark Angels army and are not equipped with jump packs (they are cheaper than current assault squads for this reason). They may take transport options as normal or they may take jump packs. If they take jump packs, they will be moved to fast attack.

Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

Don't Assault Marines get double specials?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Don't Assault Marines get double specials?

If you don't mind "double specials" being limited to flamers or plasma pistols only.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

I knew this was coming. It does not make sense from a fluff perspective, as tactical marines do not wield chainswords. Plus, as they are trading a S4 AP5 Bolter for a Chainsword, they should be cheaper as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Don't Assault Marines get double specials?

If you don't mind "double specials" being limited to flamers or plasma pistols only.

They should probably be able to take meltas, plasma guns etc.

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

I knew this was coming. It does not make sense from a fluff perspective, as tactical marines do not wield chainswords. Plus, as they are trading a S4 AP5 Bolter for a Chainsword, they should be cheaper as well.

As a Black Templars player, this intrigues me. Do go on.

Decent enough solution. It's not the same as all tacs trading bolter for ccw for the following reasons:
-Asms get rhinos for free
-Asms have no access to razorbacks (anymore)
-Asms can take double specs (inc all specs for BA)
-Asms do not need to be 10man for second option
-Asms can't take heavies.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

I knew this was coming. It does not make sense from a fluff perspective, as tactical marines do not wield chainswords. Plus, as they are trading a S4 AP5 Bolter for a Chainsword, they should be cheaper as well.

As a Black Templars player, this intrigues me. Do go on.

Initiates aren't Tactical Marines...

Use Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, use Captain Korvydae.

Suddenly, ASM as troops!

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

I knew this was coming. It does not make sense from a fluff perspective, as tactical marines do not wield chainswords. Plus, as they are trading a S4 AP5 Bolter for a Chainsword, they should be cheaper as well.

They also get the extra attack for having the chainsword, which is why this trade is usually free

skolirvarden wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

I knew this was coming. It does not make sense from a fluff perspective, as tactical marines do not wield chainswords. Plus, as they are trading a S4 AP5 Bolter for a Chainsword, they should be cheaper as well.

They also get the extra attack for having the chainsword, which is why this trade is usually free

And Fluff?

I see the main difference between Assault and Tac marines being the jetpacks-within the game, it's easier to use the "Remove the jetpacks but keep the weapons" approach rather than add more options to tac marines, but I think from a fluff perspective the jetpack-less 'Assault Marine' would come about when a force of tac marines decided bolters were less useful in a particular situation than chainswords.

They're intended as a tactically flexible force that can fill many roles. There's nothing in the fluff that I can think of that says they can't/won't use chainswords, should there be a reason to.

Join Chaos. We have cookies chainswords.

natpri771 wrote:

skolirvarden wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

I knew this was coming. It does not make sense from a fluff perspective, as tactical marines do not wield chainswords. Plus, as they are trading a S4 AP5 Bolter for a Chainsword, they should be cheaper as well.

They also get the extra attack for having the chainsword, which is why this trade is usually free

And Fluff?

Tactical Marines are supposed to be versatile multi-role units, not dedicated solely to one combat role.

natpri771 wrote:


And Fluff?

The fluff is that assault marines are tactical marines who haven't quite earned their bolters yet, so a unit of tactical marines who haven't earned their bolters would be called..?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

natpri771 wrote:


And Fluff?

The fluff is that assault marines are tactical marines who haven't quite earned their bolters yet, so a unit of tactical marines who haven't earned their bolters would be called..?

wait, wait...i knew that...6-th ed blood angels?..

 Furyou Miko wrote:

natpri771 wrote:


And Fluff?

The fluff is that assault marines are tactical marines who haven't quite earned their bolters yet, so a unit of tactical marines who haven't earned their bolters would be called..?

The answer you want is assault marines, assault marines are not tactical marines. Assault Marines are also not "Tacticals Who Haven't Earned Their Bolters". Once a marine graduates from the scout company, he will become a devastator, then an assault marine, then a tactical marine and finally will be promoted to a battle company and placed into a squad whose field he excels best in. Marines who excel in close combat are not assigned to a tactical squad, they are asigned to an assault squads. It is possible for an assault marine to outrank a tactical marine and be more experienced. While assault marines in the reserve companies are less experienced than tactical marines in the reserve companies, in the battle companies, the two are equally experienced. One simply showed an affinity for close combat and the other showed a balance between ranged and close combat. Plus, an assault marine in the reserve companies has already wielded a bolter as a devastator (50% of Devastators in a squad wield bolters) and as a scout, bolters are not something that are "earned".

Here's a better solution. Put assault marines back into troops for the armies that should have them as troops, and keep all of their other rules exactly the same. Moving them was a stupid decision, and moving them back doesn't create any problems. Changing their rules first is a solution in need of a problem.

 Peregrine wrote:
Here's a better solution. Put assault marines back into troops for the armies that should have them as troops, and keep all of their other rules exactly the same. Moving them was a stupid decision, and moving them back doesn't create any problems. Changing their rules first is a solution in need of a problem.

I agree that they should be a troops choice for Blood Angels, but every marine army? The reason why Blood Angels should have assault squads as troops is that they are a fast moving chapter and that they are the main part of their strikeforces (remember the entire chapter is rarely deployed) and they are a central part of their strategy and culture. Can you say the same about Imperial Fists or Dark Angels? This was more of a thing to appease both sides of the argument.

natpri771 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Here's a better solution. Put assault marines back into troops for the armies that should have them as troops, and keep all of their other rules exactly the same. Moving them was a stupid decision, and moving them back doesn't create any problems. Changing their rules first is a solution in need of a problem.

I agree that they should be a troops choice for Blood Angels, but every marine army? The reason why Blood Angels should have assault squads as troops is that they are a fast moving chapter and that they are the main part of their strikeforces (remember the entire chapter is rarely deployed) and they are a central part of their strategy and culture. Can you say the same about Imperial Fists or Dark Angels? This was more of a thing to appease both sides of the argument.

Just go unbound - what's the problem.

 koooaei wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Here's a better solution. Put assault marines back into troops for the armies that should have them as troops, and keep all of their other rules exactly the same. Moving them was a stupid decision, and moving them back doesn't create any problems. Changing their rules first is a solution in need of a problem.

I agree that they should be a troops choice for Blood Angels, but every marine army? The reason why Blood Angels should have assault squads as troops is that they are a fast moving chapter and that they are the main part of their strikeforces (remember the entire chapter is rarely deployed) and they are a central part of their strategy and culture. Can you say the same about Imperial Fists or Dark Angels? This was more of a thing to appease both sides of the argument.

Just go unbound - what's the problem.

Thing is, not everyone allows unbound. Also, normal marines with chainswords should not be fast attack.

Another option would be to give them the same treatment as bikes. Give your captain/chapter master a JP, and move the AMs to troops.

I would rather that Blood Angels had an option for their Tactical Squads to exchange their Bolters for Chainswords. Or basically make them the same as Grey Hunters, spend 2 pts for a chainsword and 2 specials per 10. As there is really only one viable heavy weapon for BA squads (heavy flamer), they wouldn't be losing much.

natpri771 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

I knew this was coming. It does not make sense from a fluff perspective, as tactical marines do not wield chainswords. Plus, as they are trading a S4 AP5 Bolter for a Chainsword, they should be cheaper as well.

As a Black Templars player, this intrigues me. Do go on.

Initiates aren't Tactical Marines...

You're right, they're not, but if trading away a bolter for a ccw should save points, it stands to reason that would be the case for Initiates too.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Long and unnecessary solution, you'd get basically the exact same effect by saying all Tactical Marines across all Space Marine books can trade their bolters for chainswords for free.

I knew this was coming. It does not make sense from a fluff perspective, as tactical marines do not wield chainswords. Plus, as they are trading a S4 AP5 Bolter for a Chainsword, they should be cheaper as well.

As a Black Templars player, this intrigues me. Do go on.

Initiates aren't Tactical Marines...

You're right, they're not, but if trading away a bolter for a ccw should save points, it stands to reason that would be the case for Initiates too.

'

I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

Where have you seen non-sergeant tactical marines wielding chainswords. Secondly, Assault Marines should have access to all special weapons if you ask me.

natpri771 wrote:
The reason why Blood Angels should have assault squads as troops is that they are a fast moving chapter and that they are the main part of their strikeforces (remember the entire chapter is rarely deployed) and they are a central part of their strategy and culture.

but doesn't this mean that Blood Angel assault squads should be troops only when they have jump packs?

But ain't we moving away from this abusive foc-swapping stuff?

natpri771 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
I'm not suggesting that tactical marines should be able to swap their bolters for chainswords. I'm saying that assault marines should by default be troops with the option of taking jump packs, which will make them fast attack.

Sooo...you want a unit that's rules-wise identical to Tactical Marines except for chainswords instead of bolters and more limited weapon options, that can change slots by buying a peice of wargear.

Instead of leaving Assault Marines in Fast Attack and letting Tactical Marines swap their bolters for chainswords.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any more logical, fluff-supported, or easier.

Where have you seen non-sergeant tactical marines wielding chainswords. Secondly, Assault Marines should have access to all special weapons if you ask me.

Dawn of War 2. Every SM Codex prior to the 6e one. Deathwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
But ain't we moving away from this abusive foc-swapping stuff?

Straight into abusive different-FOC stuff, yeah. The FOC has meant very little since 6e started creating Allies and alternate detachments.