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Depends on the meta. Even 1 rubs some people the wrong way, but most are OK with it. I do try to use Falcons instead where appropriate, but they cost more.

And config. A BL Serpent isnt much cheese.

More than the agreed upon points limit would allow.

It starts becoming a spam when you're starting to pick troops to go with your transports instead of picking a transport to go with your troops.

The Waves Serpents need to be cheese with all this whine up in here....

Ratius wrote:

How you use them does matter, though. Throwing down a skimmer gunline is cheesy, starting at about more than one of them.

Why though?

Because skimmer gunlines are cheesy. Like all gunlines, they devolve the game to yahtzee with minis, and the AV12 skimmers allow them to do things like avoid anything but long-range firepower better.

You get to play the dice rolling game while your opponent gets to play the desperately trying to make the movement phase relevant game. Trying to do anything other than sit there and gunline back. Trying to make there more of a game in the game.

WS gunlining may be a part of the game, just like tau gunlines, but it doesn't make them any less cheesy.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Wave Serpent is Cheese full stop.....

No it's not. If you had one WS in a 3000pt game would that really be cheesy?

As people said, it's more the way you use them. If you're actually using them as transports it's different to taking minimum squads just to get more WS in there.

yes, because the list would probably consits of the WS and multiple void bunkers, titans and landing pads.

Even a single one , and I doubt anyone plays with fewer then 2, gives so much utility , it is always OP.

A single one isn't cheese though. It might be overpowered but there's a difference between taking one of an overpowered unit, and having a cheesy list. And you can't say it's cheese because of what the list 'probably' is. If it was all Howling Banshees, and other rarely taken units in C:Eldar, and one WS; would that still be a cheesy list?

Yeah, a single WS is definitely not cheese. I think the ratio of troops to WS is what determines cheesiness.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

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 jreilly89 wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
One of my mates has 2 for 2x 5 man DA squads in a 600pt list - is that cheesy?

That does seem cheesy. 600 points is a bit low for fielding 2 of them with bare bones squads (I'm assuming).

Bare DA in a WS is a little under 200pts (not going to go into specifics). He's taking the minimum DA, the Wave Serpents, an HQ model, and very little else.

Army composition wise this is a pretty munchkin move unless someone's going to bring two Sicarians to be a dick back.

Just because you can bring something doesn't mean you should. I could bring a Land Raider with a 4+ Invuln in a 600 point game and I'd feel like a dick, even though it's totally viable. 2 WS with a bare DA squad just seems like a cheap excuse to curbstomp people at low point games, same as bringing 2 Catacomb Command Barges

 jreilly89 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
One of my mates has 2 for 2x 5 man DA squads in a 600pt list - is that cheesy?

That does seem cheesy. 600 points is a bit low for fielding 2 of them with bare bones squads (I'm assuming).

Bare DA in a WS is a little under 200pts (not going to go into specifics). He's taking the minimum DA, the Wave Serpents, an HQ model, and very little else.

Army composition wise this is a pretty munchkin move unless someone's going to bring two Sicarians to be a dick back.

Just because you can bring something doesn't mean you should. I could bring a Land Raider with a 4+ Invuln in a 600 point game and I'd feel like a dick, even though it's totally viable. 2 WS with a bare DA squad just seems like a cheap excuse to curbstomp people at low point games, same as bringing 2 Catacomb Command Barges

Six hundred points is enough for me to have a Lynx and a Jetbike Farseer but I don't because I want to keep friends after the battle. (That and I don't have a Lynx.)

i think that the wave serpent isn't the problem, i think its the 'laser lock' rule combined with the 60" range shield blast which is obviously ridiculous. i have issues with the sheild ignoring cover and 7 shot potential, but every unit's got to have something going for it right?

Holy feth... People honestly think more than zero is cheese? Either you don't actually play vs WS and are just following the Dakka circlejerk that they're overpowered "becuz we say so hur hur hur" or you're deliberately running terrible list. Even fluffy and themed list can reliably deal with one... Of course the more likely scenario is you have no idea what constitutes cheese.

When you have Eldar players putting units away because they feel the unit is OP/Broken/Cheesy/whatever - then its patently obvious that that unit is a major problem in the game - which it is.

If GW fixed Wave Serpents - and there have been various threads on how to do so - there would be a lot less discussion - but as its not going to happen there will always be complaints that the unit is broken - because it is.

 Mr Morden wrote:
When you have Eldar players putting units away because they feel the unit is OP/Broken/Cheesy/whatever - then its patently obvious that that unit is a major problem in the game - which it is.

If GW fixed Wave Serpents - and there have been various threads on how to do so - there would be a lot less discussion - but as its not going to happen there will always be complaints that the unit is broken - because it is.

No ones arguing they aren't overpowered. My point is that taking just one of an overpowered unit isn't cheesy. You can deal with one. It's when you spam them it becomes cheesy.

I voted 3+. 2 is realistic for transport needs. 3+, you're clearly sitting back and making a shield-shooting gunline

I would be okay with Serps if the Shield attack was One Use Only and it could not gain the benefit of Serpent Shield after using it (they discharged all the energy of the shield in the attack). Heck, I would be okay with the shield if it did not have an attack function at all. I don't think the price of the Serp should go up too much, since it is the dedicated transport of the army.

 Pyeatt wrote:
I voted 3+. 2 is realistic for transport needs. 3+, you're clearly sitting back and making a shield-shooting gunline

A socalled shield shooting gunline becomes decent if you have five or more Serpents.
Then you can gradually approach the enemy at speed 6" and shoot all weapons: tl scatterlaser, shuricannon, and shield.
Opponents know that this can be absolutely devastating.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would be okay with Serps if the Shield attack was One Use Only and it could not gain the benefit of Serpent Shield after using it (they discharged all the energy of the shield in the attack). Heck, I would be okay with the shield if it did not have an attack function at all. I don't think the price of the Serp should go up too much, since it is the dedicated transport of the army.

If the shield was template / 6" range / one shot/ combination of these then IMO it would be fine - in fact that's what we are playing some games locally with plus falcons as DT and Banshee assaulting out of transports........

As pointed out it depends on a number of factors.

Point level, what's being used to unlock the Serpents, Serpent load-outs, how the Serpent is ran, meta, etc.

I typically run 2-3 Serpents in my 1750 point list. Not once have I been called out for spam (probably because unlike the other Eldar players I almost never shoot the shield).