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How many would you say starts being cheesy and spam?

over 0

/thread

Clear out folks

3+. 2 is reasonable. The only time I saw 2 and considered it cheese was because it was 2 WS with a full squad of jetbikes and 2 Psykers on jetbikes

For what size game?

At 500 points I would consider 2 WS spam, but not at 2000 points.

The question is wrong, as its not the number of WS that makes them cheesy, its they way you do it.

There is a huge difference between a large number of WS with minimal "tax" squads filling them, and the same number of WS, but holding large squads who actually use it as a transport for doing their own thing.

Well, I have 5 Serpents in my 1500 pt standard list.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I have 5 Serpents in my 1500 pt standard list.

Do you max out the squads as well as give them upgrades or keep them minimum as possible

A Wave Serpent is Cheese full stop.....

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I have 5 Serpents in my 1500 pt standard list.

Do you max out the squads as well as give them upgrades or keep them minimum as possible

Well, I'm generally maxing out squads, like 10 DA or 10 Guardians.

Honestly while it'd be tough.. you're list isn't super cheese cause at least you're maxing out squads.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The question is wrong, as its not the number of WS that makes them cheesy, its they way you do it.

There is a huge difference between a large number of WS with minimal "tax" squads filling them, and the same number of WS, but holding large squads who actually use it as a transport for doing their own thing.

This. I don't have a problem with 3-4+ if they're legitimately transporting around full squads or a variety of squads. When you take multiple 5 man Dire Avengers squads at that point you just want the Serpent and not the whole unit and it just feels more spammy and cheesy.

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Wave Serpent is Cheese full stop.....

No it's not. If you had one WS in a 3000pt game would that really be cheesy?

As people said, it's more the way you use them. If you're actually using them as transports it's different to taking minimum squads just to get more WS in there.

I take 3 no matter what points.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Wave Serpent is Cheese full stop.....

No it's not. If you had one WS in a 3000pt game would that really be cheesy?

As people said, it's more the way you use them. If you're actually using them as transports it's different to taking minimum squads just to get more WS in there.

It's still cheese, just diluted cheese.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Wave Serpent is Cheese full stop.....

No it's not. If you had one WS in a 3000pt game would that really be cheesy?

As people said, it's more the way you use them. If you're actually using them as transports it's different to taking minimum squads just to get more WS in there.

yes, because the list would probably consits of the WS and multiple void bunkers, titans and landing pads.

Even a single one , and I doubt anyone plays with fewer then 2, gives so much utility , it is always OP.

Makumba wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Wave Serpent is Cheese full stop.....

No it's not. If you had one WS in a 3000pt game would that really be cheesy?

As people said, it's more the way you use them. If you're actually using them as transports it's different to taking minimum squads just to get more WS in there.

yes, because the list would probably consits of the WS and multiple void bunkers, titans and landing pads.

Even a single one , and I doubt anyone plays with fewer then 2, gives so much utility , it is always OP.

A single one isn't cheese though. It might be overpowered but there's a difference between taking one of an overpowered unit, and having a cheesy list. And you can't say it's cheese because of what the list 'probably' is. If it was all Howling Banshees, and other rarely taken units in C:Eldar, and one WS; would that still be a cheesy list?

One of my mates has 2 for 2x 5 man DA squads in a 600pt list - is that cheesy?

I said 4+, but really it depends on Point Value of the game, and like the post said above, how they're being used.

In my tournament list I had been running 4+ with DAVU, but in my friendly games I'll use 1 ... sometimes 2 (depending on point value).

I am personally moving away from them, especially in the tournament environment.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Wave Serpent is Cheese full stop.....

No it's not. If you had one WS in a 3000pt game would that really be cheesy?

As people said, it's more the way you use them. If you're actually using them as transports it's different to taking minimum squads just to get more WS in there.

I stand by what I said - the unit itself is cheese- even if the rest of the army is rubbish - that one unit is still cheese...............

Its just stupid that there is no DT alternative in the Codex.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Wave Serpent is Cheese full stop.....

No it's not. If you had one WS in a 3000pt game would that really be cheesy?

As people said, it's more the way you use them. If you're actually using them as transports it's different to taking minimum squads just to get more WS in there.

I stand by what I said - the unit itself is cheese- even if the rest of the army is rubbish - that one unit is still cheese...............

Its just stupid that there is no DT alternative in the Codex.

The unit is overpowered, not cheesy. Cheesy is more about spamming an overpowered unit and how the whole army looks as opposed to taking one overpowered unit once.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
One of my mates has 2 for 2x 5 man DA squads in a 600pt list - is that cheesy?

That does seem cheesy. 600 points is a bit low for fielding 2 of them with bare bones squads (I'm assuming).

Depends on the points cap. Also depends on what you're sticking in them. Five DA with no Exarch in a Wave Serpent is a munchkin move since all you're doing is loading up your list with Wave Serpents as cheaply as possible.

There is no hard and fast limit. I can toss down ten Wave Serpents and bubble them around Darkshrouds for the insanity in Apocalypse games and get them all wiped by the first Orbital Bombardment, I can bring one Wave Serpent to a 500pt game where nobody was expecting vehicles and clean up. Consider your environment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
One of my mates has 2 for 2x 5 man DA squads in a 600pt list - is that cheesy?

That does seem cheesy. 600 points is a bit low for fielding 2 of them with bare bones squads (I'm assuming).

Bare DA in a WS is a little under 200pts (not going to go into specifics). He's taking the minimum DA, the Wave Serpents, an HQ model, and very little else.

Army composition wise this is a pretty munchkin move unless someone's going to bring two Sicarians to be a dick back.

The question is wrong, as its not the number of WS that makes them cheesy, its they way you do it.

There is a huge difference between a large number of WS with minimal "tax" squads filling them, and the same number of WS, but holding large squads who actually use it as a transport for doing their own thing.

As people said, it's more the way you use them. If you're actually using them as transports it's different to taking minimum squads just to get more WS in there.

Thats like saying if you take 3 LRCs with the dakka banner they should be chock full of DW Knights. Does not compute.
The WS, love it or hate it, is a very viable and manouverable weapons platform. Maxing out units into it, if you are using it as such is an utter waste and no more cheesey than 3 Knights running at you, Seerstars, Quad Rips or PentTyrants.
I've run 5 at tourneys and few have batted an eyelid.

How you use them does matter, though. Throwing down a skimmer gunline is cheesy, starting at about more than one of them. Using skimmers to try and get banshees into close combat is about as far from that as you can get.

Though wave serpents are the weakest thing I could say this about, it's more of cheesy players lining up to line up wave serpents than it is, necessarily, a problem with wave serpents themselves.

Probably more than 1 per 500 points I guess. I feel like they're exaggerated really.

How you use them does matter, though. Throwing down a skimmer gunline is cheesy, starting at about more than one of them.

Why though?
One can argue the WS has 4 roles (interchangeable of course):
transport vehicle
mobile gun platform
hybrid
objective grabber/contester.

If one wishes to use them purely in one of those roles, which it is perfectly capable of doing, how is that cheesey?
If you're facing a Green Tide and have filled a couple of your WS with banshees do you seriously think its a viable tactic to belt them forward and try and get their contents out? Of course not. No more than its viable to glide your PentTyrants across the board VS gunline marines.

 Ratius wrote:

How you use them does matter, though. Throwing down a skimmer gunline is cheesy, starting at about more than one of them.

Why though?
One can argue the WS has 4 roles (interchangeable of course):
transport vehicle
mobile gun platform
hybrid
objective grabber/contester.

If one wishes to use them purely in one of those roles, which it is perfectly capable of doing, how is that cheesey?
If you're facing a Green Tide and have filled a couple of your WS with banshees do you seriously think its a viable tactic to belt them forward and try and get their contents out? Of course not. No more than its viable to glide your PentTyrants across the board VS gunline marines.

Equally you could say my Knight is a fire base that nevers moves forward, avoids combat and tries to blow up in the middle of its own army - you could just not jink and not fire the wave serpents guns - but that does not make the unit less Cheesy /Overpowered - just your not using it in a cheesy way.

I play Eldar. My self imposed limit is 1 per 600 points for non competitive games which are 80-90% of the time. At a local tourney its at least 4 no matter the points.

3 Wave Serpents is still hard to stop at 1850. At least for BA.