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Keep wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure having less conflict with someone leads to a better working relationship than having more conflict with that someone.

That's just wishfull thinking, nun player. If SW are enemies with SOB successor legions better do the same, otherwise SW get angry, attack the successor chapter, take everything and piss on it to mark it as theirs. obviously.

Not sure what you mean here - both the Wolves and the White Scars are 1st Founding ?

The nature of the Scars is to be the out rider. Like Mr Morden has said and provided quotes from Scars, they might appear to be like the Wolves but they aren't. They don't look for conflict or care how others deem them.

From Scars they are a very loose chapter and weren't great for keeping up to date with what was going on around them, even amongst the Legion itself. They were 'away' a lot, if that makes sense. They had to bring in a Terran to bring some form of order on how the Legion operated.

Now this is from Heresy era but I guess they would have the same feelings as they did back then, so they might follow the teachings of the Codex, but much like their Legion days be a little rough around the edges, so to speak.

This lack of respect for order might cause contention between the highly regimented and structured Sisters of Battle.

And i'll echo Mr Morden once again, read Scars, it's a very good book.

*Sigh*... my wallet is about to collapse into a black hole...
Also WS follows the Codex Astartes excepting that they built their chapter organization around the culture of their homeworld.
P.S.: I'm pretty sure the Warhammer 40K Wiki has a pretty detailed synopsis on the novel.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Keyword: "Good". Not "better".

Well, Mr Morden was arguing, and I agree with him, that Sisters would have a better working relationship with Scars than with Space Wolves, and with a bunch of other chapters.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Not sure what you mean here - both the Wolves and the White Scars are 1st Founding ?

Exactly. They are different then SW, as in completely different, because they are not a successor chapter of SW. They don't have the manners/temper of a 6 year old.
Except someone seems to have a hard time accepting this, hence my sarcastic message.

Okay, now. A few things:
1.) The Space Wolves are actually quite civil to outsiders MOST OF THE TIME; especially their leaders, who are really the ones who usually have contact with outsiders.
2.) The Space Wolves are no longer "all up in your face" about their Rune Priests not being Psykers; that was during the Great Crusade and Age of Darkness, but very rarely do you hear of modern Wolves doing this.
3.) White Scars would have just as much trouble with Sisters of Battle as Space Wolves, as only the Head Cannoness and maybe a few other Sisters would even have contact with their allies, and thus they would have little or no problem working together on a crusade, a campaign, a battle, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Keep wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Not sure what you mean here - both the Wolves and the White Scars are 1st Founding ?

Exactly. They are different then SW, as in completely different, because they are not a successor chapter of SW. They don't have the manners/temper of a 6 year old.
Except someone seems to have a hard time accepting this, hence my sarcastic message.

He was actually already saying that they were different. He was just saying that their similarities (Shamanistic culture) would be in serious conflict with Sisters' philosophy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In response to the OP's question, yes an SOB and WS allied detachment would be fluffy. they would have little or no issues with working together on crusades, campaigns, etc. as Sisters would not have direct contact with mr. shaman and his buddies (except for the Head Cannoness and MAYBE a few others).

 dusara217 wrote:
1.) The Space Wolves are actually quite civil to outsiders MOST OF THE TIME; especially their leaders, who are really the ones who usually have contact with outsiders.

They are? I mean, they will not defy the other leader at a drinking and eating and banging contest or something? That is what Leman Russ would do.

 dusara217 wrote:
3.) White Scars would have just as much trouble with Sisters of Battle as Space Wolves, as only the Head Cannoness and maybe a few other Sisters would even have contact with their allies, and thus they would have little or no problem working together on a crusade, a campaign, a battle, etc.

If the Canoness is aware of the whole battle on Fenris business, it certainly will create some tensions .
And that “only the Canoness and a very few other Sisters have contact with outsider” is from the v2 codex, and as far as I know, has not been repeated anywhere. Not even in the supplement to some 40k rpg about Sisters of Battle, where it would be quite a nice idea to mention it. So, I am not sure it is very relevant anymore.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
1.) The Space Wolves are actually quite civil to outsiders MOST OF THE TIME; especially their leaders, who are really the ones who usually have contact with outsiders.

They are? I mean, they will not defy the other leader at a drinking and eating and banging contest or something? That is what Leman Russ would do.

The SW codex made it clear that a feast is just that, a feast, not about violence. I've not heard of nor read anything about drunken brawls associated with the Space Wolves.
And no, I've never heard of a single canon instance where Russ challenged one of his men to a duel in a drunken rage, nor in delight for that matter. It's more like friendly banters. If you had any insights please do share it with us savages.

P.S.: Since I've been convinced to read Scars, the one thing I've got so far about the Space Wolves from the novel is that they treat, at least to each other, with prideful jest and edgy humor, not contempt and rampant jealousy. They may be savages to the outsiders, but are not a bunch of unrestrained mad dogs. btw the book thus far an very interesting read about not just the White Scars, but also about the SW, the psychology of the Primarchs in the interim between the Drop Site Massacre and the Siege of Terra, and strangely enough culture differences.

 lcmiracle wrote:
The SW codex made it clear that a feast is just that, a feast, not about violence. I've not heard of nor read anything about drunken brawls associated with the Space Wolves.
And no, I've never heard of a single canon instance where Russ challenged one of his men to a duel in a drunken rage, nor in delight for that matter. It's more like friendly banters. If you had any insights please do share it with us savages.

I am confused. I was referring to how Russ greeted the Emperor. I never spoke about violence. I just think defying a Canoness to a eating and drinking contest is a very good way to earn her contempt .


[edit]Maybe it was a case of me failing at English? I did not mean the wolf to defy the canoness to a fighting contest because he was drunk, I was talking about him saying “I bet you cannot drink and eat as much as I can, you puny woman” or something along those lines.[/edit]

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
1.) The Space Wolves are actually quite civil to outsiders MOST OF THE TIME; especially their leaders, who are really the ones who usually have contact with outsiders.

They are? I mean, they will not defy the other leader at a drinking and eating and banging contest or something? That is what Leman Russ would do.

The SW codex made it clear that a feast is just that, a feast, not about violence. I've not heard of nor read anything about drunken brawls associated with the Space Wolves.
And no, I've never heard of a single canon instance where Russ challenged one of his men to a duel in a drunken rage, nor in delight for that matter. It's more like friendly banters. If you had any insights please do share it with us savages.

P.S.: Since I've been convinced to read Scars, the one thing I've got so far about the Space Wolves from the novel is that they treat, at least to each other, with prideful jest and edgy humor, not contempt and rampant jealousy. They may be savages to the outsiders, but are not a bunch of unrestrained mad dogs. btw the book thus far an very interesting read about not just the White Scars, but also about the SW, the psychology of the Primarchs in the interim between the Drop Site Massacre and the Siege of Terra, and strangely enough culture differences.

We told you it was great book - the Wolves bits are indeed very good - the chat about who would win in a fight is amusing and insightful, Russ and Bjorn ae well done. Magnus is also very interesting.

I recall Lukas getting drunk and making a pass at some alien women in the last Codex? - but they have toned this sort of thing down now I think?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
The SW codex made it clear that a feast is just that, a feast, not about violence. I've not heard of nor read anything about drunken brawls associated with the Space Wolves.
And no, I've never heard of a single canon instance where Russ challenged one of his men to a duel in a drunken rage, nor in delight for that matter. It's more like friendly banters. If you had any insights please do share it with us savages.

I am confused. I was referring to how Russ greeted the Emperor. I never spoke about violence. I just think defying a Canoness to a eating and drinking contest is a very good way to earn her contempt .


[edit]Maybe it was a case of me failing at English? I did not mean the wolf to defy the canoness to a fighting contest because he was drunk, I was talking about him saying “I bet you cannot drink and eat as much as I can, you puny woman” or something along those lines.[/edit]

"Other leader", huh; well I guess it'd have been more straight-forward if you had said "non SW leaders".
Ok, so about the Canoness bit: the feasting and drinking competition, as mention in the current codex, are usually amongst the Space Wolves only; for an outsider to join this feasts they will have to either be invited or wandered in.

If a Canoness were invited they'd have dared her out of friendly jest, and if the canoness in question take offense, well, then that would be just another unfortunate incident; had the canoness wanderer in on a SW feast, well then she should probably just walk away, unless there is a galactic prohibition going on. In that case, I doubt the SW would even greet an outsider who wandered in on their private daily ritual.

Onto the Emperor bit: the Emperor had presented himself before Russ, according to Lexicanum Russ refused to acknowledge the Emperor as the Master of Mankind at first, implying that the Emperor claimed that he was the "Master of Mankind" in the firs place. This would have a legitimate challenge to Russ' sovereignty, and the series of contest would have been held to determine who shall have the lordship over Fenris. This would have been in-character of a Fenrisian King to challenge a challenger.

The same could be said for the SW themselves: a duel is held when multiple Wolf Lords got a tie in the election for the new Great Wolf (in the event the Great Wolf dies) they basically duel to find out who's boss.An outsider being invited to a feast doesn't warrant a challenge to anything (one'd assume the SW would have expected/assumed themselves to be better at drinking and eating than normal human and most other Space Marines anyways).

Recent codice would say that the Emperor confronted Russ at the first place or that he knew he had to "best him (Russ) in single combat". Making the true initiator of the contests (as in, who challenged who) ambiguous. Just because another leader worked alongside the SW doesn't mean they will have to fight each other. Unless of course, they are the Dark Angels, in which case a customary duel will be held.

On a side note: Leman Russ (the Primarch, not the Tank, just in case other people get confused) is not the only Primarch to challenge the Emperor to some form of contest; Ferrus Manus, Vulkan, Mortarion, Angron all had so form of confrontation with the Emperor. Traitor Primarchs aside, problem never arose when Iron Hands or the Salamanders work with other Imperial forces.

 lcmiracle wrote:
If a Canoness were invited they'd have dared her out of friendly jest, and if the canoness in question take offense, well, then that would be just another unfortunate incident;

Yeah, the kind of accident that tarnish the relation of the wolves with most of the Imperium. Basically, I think we can expect the Scars to change their behavior to adjust to who they are talking to, but not the wolves.

 lcmiracle wrote:
On a side note: Leman Russ (the Primarch, not the Tank, just in case other people get confused) is not the only Primarch to challenge the Emperor to some form of contest; Ferrus Manus, Vulkan, Mortarion, Angron all had so form of confrontation with the Emperor. Traitor Primarchs aside, problem never arose when Iron Hands or the Salamanders work with other Imperial forces.

Yeah, but iirc Leman Russ was the only one to have angered the Emperor by his silly contest.

 Mr Morden wrote:

We told you it was great book - the Wolves bits are indeed very good - the chat about who would win in a fight is amusing and insightful, Russ and Bjorn ae well done. Magnus is also very interesting.

I recall Lukas getting drunk and making a pass at some alien women in the last Codex? - but they have toned this sort of thing down now I think?

I've heard many things about Lukas, but never about flirting with an xeno female. The old 'dex (5th) stated that Lukas fancies himself a master of seduction and "mating expert" before his induction into the Space Wolves. But after that it's mostly about him messing with Inquisitors, Wolf Lords, and ultimately his own life when he's not messing with the enemies of IoM.

Sadly I can't find a reference to that "Xeno love heresy" anywhere.

The new entry for Lukas is more condensed, and that bit about him and a small force of skyclaws effectively froze the planet Elixir to prevent an imminent Ork Waagghh! got removed; mind you I don't think that tale is that far fetched but there you go. I've never used him anyways -- never in my life have I faced a Titan, and now that he's been nerfed his leadership stat is pretty garbage for his cost IMO.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

We told you it was great book - the Wolves bits are indeed very good - the chat about who would win in a fight is amusing and insightful, Russ and Bjorn ae well done. Magnus is also very interesting.

I recall Lukas getting drunk and making a pass at some alien women in the last Codex? - but they have toned this sort of thing down now I think?

I've heard many things about Lukas, but never about flirting with an xeno female. The old 'dex (5th) stated that Lukas fancies himself a master of seduction and "mating expert" before his induction into the Space Wolves. But after that it's mostly about him messing with Inquisitors, Wolf Lords, and ultimately his own life when he's not messing with the enemies of IoM.

Sadly I can't find a reference to that "Xeno love heresy" anywhere.

The new entry for Lukas is more condensed, and that bit about him and a small force of skyclaws effectively froze the planet Elixir to prevent an imminent Ork Waagghh! got removed; mind you I don't think that tale is that far fetched but there you go. I've never used him anyways -- never in my life have I faced a Titan, and now that he's been nerfed his leadership stat is pretty garbage for his cost IMO.

My mistake its not Lukas but Svengar the Red:

The Space Wolves head towards the distant orb, expecting trouble. Instead they find a civiliation of tall, fair people who live in opulent luxury of their own making, far from the war and confusion of the Galatic Core. Relieved to have found a base of operations, Svengar and his men begin to relax and enjoy themselves, feasting and recounting tales of their deeds to the fair people of the far-flung world. Its only when Svengar makes a casual pass at one of thier women that the Space Wolves reslise that their hosts are not people at all. Though they fight bravely, Svengar and his men are never seen again

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
On a side note: Leman Russ (the Primarch, not the Tank, just in case other people get confused) is not the only Primarch to challenge the Emperor to some form of contest; Ferrus Manus, Vulkan, Mortarion, Angron all had so form of confrontation with the Emperor. Traitor Primarchs aside, problem never arose when Iron Hands or the Salamanders work with other Imperial forces.

Yeah, but iirc Leman Russ was the only one to have angered the Emperor by his silly contest.

True, the Emperor was angry at Russ for doing nothing but drinking and eating; on the other hand, he was intruding on Russ during a feast.

"The court had been hunting, and did not take kindly to the interruption of their feast"

And the Emperor was also sure of himself that he can beat Russ single handed, so to speak:

"He knew well that Russ would not bow to his rule without being beaten in a contest.
The Emperor was convinced of his own power, and knew that such a challenge would be as nothing to him."

So the fact that he had failed the first two contests was, frankly, annoying:

"If he was not to be given the chance. how could he prove his mettle?
If all that would greet him was derision and scornful laughter.
How could he welcome his warrior, so fond of his mead, as his lost child?"

In truth Russ was just enjoying his feast:

"The Wolf-King did not wish to spoil a good feast;
His first challenge was to an eating competition."

And was starting to like the guy who he shall soon call "Father"

"But the King was enjoying his sport.
He realised that the brown-cloaked traveller had the spirit of a Fenrisian.
And so challenged the newcomer to a drinking bout."

As according to the old Index Astartes. Incidentally this is presented as an old Fenrisian Saga, just food for thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

My mistake its not Lukas but Svengar the Red:

The Space Wolves head towards the distant orb, expecting trouble. Instead they find a civiliation of tall, fair people who live in opulent luxury of their own making, far from the war and confusion of the Galatic Core. Relieved to have found a base of operations, Svengar and his men begin to relax and enjoy themselves, feasting and recounting tales of their deeds to the fair people of the far-flung world. Its only when Svengar makes a casual pass at one of thier women that the Space Wolves reslise that their hosts are not people at all. Though they fight bravely, Svengar and his men are never seen again

Lol, I remember that guy, that story is kinda fun IMHO. I never figured out what those "people" really are -- most likely exodite Eldar or even Slaaneshi daemons. This tale is also gone in the new codex, but in their defense, they simply thought them to be human, and the Ol' Svengar was just feeling a bit flirty that day.

Edit: now I'm convinced that they are some sort of warp Daemons, since the 5E codex explicitly said that they were beyond the even the Ghost Stars, and were hearing "whispers" promising safe passage.

Sounds like some serious pro-Space Wolf chest pounding going on. To me they're just another chapter with a distinct culture and practices, not even the 'first among equals' among Space Marine chapters. Every 40K source is told from a 'point of view', and every point of view makes the protagonists look like they're the biggest bada**es in the galaxy.

It's your choice how to interpret the Wolves (or any other chapter) of course. If you want to think the White Consuls (or the Black Consuls, or the Rainbow Warriors) can whip any other chapter in a one-on-one contest go for it. The fluff leaves plenty of room for interpretation either way.

The problem with the White Scars is that there's so little fluff about them that we really don't know how they relate to the Adepta Sororitas. Both arguments presented in this thread seem reasonable to me.

The White Scars seem like more of a 'take care of business' chapter who are less likely to antagonize an ally. Space Wolves seem more boisterous and arrogant about their role, so they might well create antagonism when it wasn't necessary.

On the other hand, I can't imagine White Scars hiding their practices just because an ally was present. If any Imperial organization is likely to take offense at their shamanistic practices it would certainly be the Sororitas.

The name calling, and the implication that being Sororitas player is somehow demeaning and inferior, really need to go. You can agree to disagree without trolling each other.

My two teef.

could be anything - Slaaneshi Eldar sounds likely.

Aren't the Wolves also the only Chapter with special alcohol that can make Astartes drunk?

Agreed, I'm pretty disappointed to see personal attacks on Sisters players for no reason, especially since most of this thread has devolved into SW nonsense.

Think we can save what crevasses a Space Wolf will explore with his little chainsword for another thread?

 lcmiracle wrote:
True, the Emperor was angry at Russ for doing nothing but drinking and eating; on the other hand, he was intruding on Russ during a feast.

Yeah. Some other primarch might have stopped the feast to go to serious business. Not Russ. I can imagine a Space Wolf leader doing the same, making the other leader feel disrespected.

 lcmiracle wrote:
and the Ol' Svengar was just feeling a bit flirty that day.

That could also go bad if they decide to flirt with Sisters .

 Mr Morden wrote:
could be anything - Slaaneshi Eldar sounds likely.

Aren't the Wolves also the only Chapter with special alcohol that can make Astartes drunk?

...What? I dunno, I know that the cup wulfen is used to drug the aspirants so that they have the Canis Felix implanted in the aspirants, and the wolf priests will drug them unconscious so they can dump them in the wild as their first trial.

What I do know, is that in Flight of the Eisenstein, the Death Guards uses a very specially made Barbarus liquor, AKA poison, which induce drunk like state in an astarte. Since alcohol is poison I'm gonna assume any poison (or a mix of poison) strong enough can make most, if not all, Space Marine drunk.

right lets get back to Scars

Anyone got any other good info - I don't think there is any fluff where the Scars and Sororitas have been fighting on the same side - I guess Armegddon is possible.

Ugh.

Please stay on topic in here.

Thanks!

 Mr Morden wrote:
right lets get back to Scars

Anyone got any other good info - I don't think there is any fluff where the Scars and Sororitas have been fighting on the same side - I guess Armegddon is possible.

No sure if "yes" would be a satisfying answer. Both faction have forces on Armageddon during the third war, and both were lmperial loyalists fighting against Orks, so they were certainly on the same side.

But as far as I know they have not fought as allies in a single battle in official fluff, including in BL publications.

The Ecclesiarchy vs Space Wolves blurb is just another poorly thought out story, kinda like the Ultramarines vs Alpha Legion battle from IA:AL (Alpharius knew what Guilliman would do because he knew the Codex, but Guilliman did something unexpected, meaning the Codex isn't what Alpharius thought it was. Just kidding, after that fight, Alpharius knew the Codex again and could fool the Ultramarines!).

Some author thought it would be interesteding, and just kinda started writing, without really thinking out the plausibility (or lack thereof) of their story.

Really, the Ecclesiarchy would know better than to investigate a Space Marine homeworld. I mean, that battle was supposed to have happened in late M41. After the Ecclecisarchy has had basically 8 or 9 thousand years of "You don't really have any authority on Space Marine homeworlds" classes. I mean, the Ecclesiarchy is painted as dumb and shortsighted because, well, that's their role in the 40K universe as the Oppressive Galactic Space Church. But that's almost too dumb.