Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello everyone,

Was hoping someone with a broader knowledge of the lore might help me find if there are any known relationships between the White Scars and their successors and the Sisters? Or at least could help surmise what kind of relationship they might have if there is no evidence to the question.

There is, as I am sure you know - very little information about the White Scars.

Going by the limited info in the SM Codex and the few bits and pieces of LB work - especially "Scars" which I enjoyed a lot, I think they would be an interesting match up.

In that novel, The White Scars are very much independently minded but not, like say the Wolves, belligerent about it. So they would likely rub peoples up the wrong way a lot less (*). They also may cultivate a feral look but (again like the Wolves) are not simple Barbarians.

If they are still the same mindset as their Legion forebears, they would probably find the Sororitas interesting but not share their views on many things, but not communicate this to them, unlike other Chapters. In terms of on the battlefield they would complement each other quite well, with units like the Dominions working well with White Scars

(*)

That is pretty close to the thinking I had as well. The Scars are independently minded to be sure, but at the same time they are more "team first" than the Wolves when it comes to philosophical differences between allies. Of course, it makes one wonder if the Sisters would do the same as well, but that said, it is not like the Scars are bucking against any Imperial tradition. They aren't showing any obvious signs of diversion or heresy, so I can see something of a working relationship between the two.

I ask this as I am building up allies for my own Minor Order, which specializes in vanguard and ambush strikes, and the Scars with their predilection towards speed and shock attacks would seem a very strong complement to that.

I don't know about the White Scars that much, but according to lexicanum:

"They (The Stormseers) believe that their powers are connected to the spirits of the land and the air, and that as long as these natural forces fight alongside them, the White Scars will always be victorious."

Isn't that basically what the Space Wolves do?

 lcmiracle wrote:
I don't know about the White Scars that much, but according to lexicanum:

"They (The Stormseers) believe that their powers are connected to the spirits of the land and the air, and that as long as these natural forces fight alongside them, the White Scars will always be victorious."

Isn't that basically what the Space Wolves do?

Sort of - but the Scars don't tend to get in people's faces as much and tell that "their" psykers are bad and Rune Priests are not psykers

First, if the ecclesiarchy had foolishly attacked Fenris because a Runepriest some 10 thousand years ago told a Thousand Sons legionnaire that the wolves don't use psykers, than this is the church being up its butt for something they can't possibly even know about.

Second, the Runepriest and the Stormseers both practices their things openly in their respected chapters, srtormseers even teach WS neophyte about spiritualism and elect the new khan. It's not exactly a well guarded secret for either side. Had a SOB force worked with WS for sometime they'd know about the whole thing.

So the ecclesiarchy doesn't know about the one line from Prosperos Burns; they were after the SW because of their beliefs and practices. These practices are shamanic, animal and ancestral worships. Therefore Shamanic rituals and ancestral worship are heresy, White Scars therefore commits hersy.

Therefore SOB + WS = trait incompatibility

 lcmiracle wrote:
So the ecclesiarchy doesn't know about the one line from Prosperos Burns; they were after the SW because of their beliefs and practices. Shamanic rituals and ancestral worship are heresy, White Scars therefore commits hersy.

Hey. The difference being that the White Scars commit heresy privately and will not speak openly about it, therefore the Sisters will not know, while the Space Wolves will shove it down the Sisters' throat while giggling with glee. Or at least this is what Mr Morden meant.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
So the ecclesiarchy doesn't know about the one line from Prosperos Burns; they were after the SW because of their beliefs and practices. Shamanic rituals and ancestral worship are heresy, White Scars therefore commits hersy.

Hey. The difference being that the White Scars commit heresy privately and will not speak openly about it, therefore the Sisters will not know, while the Space Wolves will shove it down the Sisters' throat while giggling with glee. Or at least this is what Mr Morden meant.

Yeah pretty much - the Wolves tend to dare the universe to do something about them, the White Scars don't.

Yeah, as I said, the Scars are far better team players than the Wolves. And while I don't expect the Sisters to be all buddy buddy friendly with them, I can see a united effort that comes out to be greater than the sum of its parts, fluff-wise. Sure, there is probably some less than smooth moments in terms of philosophy, but once the bullets fly, I can see it working.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
So the ecclesiarchy doesn't know about the one line from Prosperos Burns; they were after the SW because of their beliefs and practices. Shamanic rituals and ancestral worship are heresy, White Scars therefore commits hersy.

Hey. The difference being that the White Scars commit heresy privately and will not speak openly about it, therefore the Sisters will not know, while the Space Wolves will shove it down the Sisters' throat while giggling with glee. Or at least this is what Mr Morden meant.

Yeah pretty much - the Wolves tend to dare the universe to do something about them, the White Scars don't.

Then you are saying the Assault on Fenris was all just the Ecclesiarchy all up its own butt to do what, exactly? Because the SW are full of themselves? That's a very specific grudge you are holding. The Space Wolves refused the Ecclesiarchy entry because the Fenrisian themselves practices the same beliefs the Runepriests hold. The same is on Chogoris -- the chapter practices a local faith. White Scars would have refused entry just as SW did.

And no, if the SW's spiritualism was heresy, so was the White Scars', that along should prevent the SOB from working with the Chapter; it's not exactly secret when every Chogoris are raised with the same shamanic faith and the WS Stormseers carry staffs with animal head bones on them. All this are open to be seen by just one SOB casually walking by them when they prey to the Chogoris spirits of air and land for protection.

The lightning bolt is a potent symbol to the White Scars as it exemplifies their style of battle and echoes the warrior scars they bear on their faces. It also represents the lightning which the Stormseers call to smite their enemies, and these sinister warriors preach that so long as the spirits of air and land heed their call, the White Scars will never falter in battle.
-- Index Astartes I. Games-Workshop. "Lightning Attack, The White Scars Space Marine Chapter". p45.

Honestly I never knew personality and friendliness can override the Sister of Battle's faith and religious doctrine, when the WS openly preach about their "blasphemous" faith

 lcmiracle wrote:
it's not exactly secret when every Chogoris are raised with the same shamanic faith

It is hardly common knowledge. There are no Sisters on Chogoris.

 lcmiracle wrote:
and the WS Stormseers carry staffs with animal head bones on them.

So… what?

 lcmiracle wrote:
All this are open to be seen by just one SOB casually walking by them when they prey to the Chogoris spirits of air and land for protection.

- “What are you doing?”
- “We are praying for protection.”
- “Oh, okay then. I do not really like your ways of praying, but at least we all pray to the God-Emperor.”
- “Yeah, sure”.
Or
- “What are you doing?”
- “We are praying the wolf claw fang blood spirit in a way that is so much better than your silly prayers, you idiot.”

Then you are saying the Assault on Fenris was all just the Ecclesiarchy all up its own butt to do what, exactly? Because the SW are full of themselves? That's a very specific grudge you are holding. The Space Wolves refused the Ecclesiarchy entry because the Fenrisian themselves practices the same beliefs the Runepriests hold. The same is on Chogoris -- the chapter practices a local faith. White Scars would have refused entry just as SW did.

Err no grudge here - I Really like the Space Wolves, I have loads of stuff about them, my own Space Wolves army etc etc

As I said the Space Wolves dare the Universe to do something about them - they don't bow to anyone - they make enemies but they don't care - thats the Sapce Wolves I see and think are cool................

The Scars seems different - they don't go out of their way to provoke -?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
it's not exactly secret when every Chogoris are raised with the same shamanic faith

It is hardly common knowledge. There are no Sisters on Chogoris.

 lcmiracle wrote:
and the WS Stormseers carry staffs with animal head bones on them.

So… what?

 lcmiracle wrote:
All this are open to be seen by just one SOB casually walking by them when they prey to the Chogoris spirits of air and land for protection.

- “What are you doing?”
- “We are praying for protection.”
- “Oh, okay then. I do not really like your ways of praying, but at least we all pray to the God-Emperor.”
- “Yeah, sure”.
Or
- “What are you doing?”
- “We are praying the wolf claw fang blood spirit in a way that is so much better than your silly prayers, you idiot.”

And there were sisters on fenris？

And that's my way of tell you to "get a clue and learn to dig trenches"

Also, what made you think the White Scars you reply in such a way while the Space Wolves would otherwise?

Seriously are you all so damn as to think that a space wolf would even bother to answer your inquiry, and the sister of battle would be so deaf or dumb as to not realize who they were praying to?

In short the SOB would have as easy a time to work with the WS as they would with the SW, and to think otherwise is only wishful thinking by you the neglected nun players who just need more attention.

 lcmiracle wrote:
And there were sisters on fenris？

There were. When they where blowing stuff up. Because they were denied entry.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Also, what made you think the White Scars you reply in such a way while the Space Wolves would otherwise?

I do not know enough about the Scars, but that was what Mr Morden was saying. See with him.

 lcmiracle wrote:
and to think otherwise is only wishful thinking by you the neglected nun players who just need more attention.

Ah. Nice one, thank you.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
it's not exactly secret when every Chogoris are raised with the same shamanic faith

It is hardly common knowledge. There are no Sisters on Chogoris.

 lcmiracle wrote:
and the WS Stormseers carry staffs with animal head bones on them.

So… what?

 lcmiracle wrote:
All this are open to be seen by just one SOB casually walking by them when they prey to the Chogoris spirits of air and land for protection.

- “What are you doing?”
- “We are praying for protection.”
- “Oh, okay then. I do not really like your ways of praying, but at least we all pray to the God-Emperor.”
- “Yeah, sure”.
Or
- “What are you doing?”
- “We are praying the wolf claw fang blood spirit in a way that is so much better than your silly prayers, you idiot.”

And there were sisters on fenris？

And that's my way of tell you to "get a clue and learn to dig trenches"

Also, what made you think the White Scars you reply in such a way while the Space Wolves would otherwise?

Seriously are you all so damn as to think that a space wolf would even bother to answer your inquiry, and the sister of battle would be so deaf or dumb as to not realize who they were praying to?

In short the SOB would have as easy a time to work with the WS as they would with the SW, and to think otherwise is only wishful thinking by you the neglected nun players who just need more attention.

Sheez - chill out - what's your big issue - its a discussion - lets not get nto neameclalling over the background of a game:

So you think the Scars and the Wolves are exactly the same? I don't

I think they have different strengths, weaknesses and ways of viewing the universe. Same as the Sisters........

The only things the SOB blew up on Fenris was their flamer fuel tanks from mischanting the litany. Prove me they didn't

Mr Morden believes The White Scars won't go around telling everyone what they believe, then again I believe they also do not hide this information because it's who they are. It don't matter that the White Scars are less of a glory-hound chapter or that they are supposedly less provoking, the fact that they are pagan should tell you where the problem would be.

You want to field them? Sure you can! I could field my SW army allied with SOB (battle brothers 'thanks' to 6.5e) if they weren't all pewter and I hate the Ecclesiarchy so much. Heke I can probably come up with a reason why they will work together in the first place -- that don't make the SW and SOB not fluff enemies.

 lcmiracle wrote:
and I hate the Ecclesiarchy so much.

And I think this is what this is all really about.

I never said I didn't hate the Ecclesiarchy; I made myself clear in one of the first threads I posted here that I hate the Ecclesiarchy. That don't change the fact that the White Scars are what they are: pagans, probably genuinely nice guys now that I've found out about them, but still pagans.

I've given you all the information on the White Scae's belief system I can dig up, that they are not secretly practicing shamanism, and that this will pose a great concern to SOB-WS alliance. Not some "oh because they are so nice the SOB wouldn't call out on their paganism" BS.

Don't use ad hominem on me Oxayolt; I've made my points clear here.

 lcmiracle wrote:
The only things the SOB blew up on Fenris was their flamer fuel tanks from mischanting the litany. Prove me they didn't

Mr Morden believes The White Scars won't go around telling everyone what they believe, then again I believe they also do not hide this information because it's who they are. It don't matter that the White Scars are less of a glory-hound chapter or that they are supposedly less provoking, the fact that they are pagan should tell you where the problem would be.

You want to field them? Sure you can! I could field my SW army allied with SOB (battle brothers 'thanks' to 6.5e) if they weren't all pewter and I hate the Ecclesiarchy so much. Heke I can probably come up with a reason why they will work together in the first place -- that don't make the SW and SOB not fluff enemies.

I have to ask have you read much White Scars fluff? If you haven't read Scars by Chris Wraight - read it and I think you will understand what I am trying to say.

To the Sororitas almost all of the Astartes are pagans but they are also the Emperor's chosen children - look at the Blood Angels and others for the truth of this. Even many imperial Guard regiments have savage or "barabaric" practices, rituals and the like.

Its part of the Wolves style to play this nature up - to present to be primitive when they are actually far more cunning and much more dangerous than any mere berseker. The Scars are similar and different:

"All Legions have reputations," Halji said, awkwardly, "Some overlap. The Wolves boast of it. We have had difficulties in past because of it. Others assume that we were the same. They see ritual marks, the scars, and make judgement." Halji winced as he spoke, as though he was ashamed of it all. " We are not savages. We do not wish to be seen as savages."

"Listen to me," he said firmly. "We may not be "executioners" or "world eaters" or "the perfect" but we are what we are. We have never demanded respect from anyone, and if they know nothing of us that is their loss, because we know about them. We are faster - we move faster, kill faster They are brothers,but if Russ has committed crime then the Khagan will swat him aside like the ragged dog that he is. Have you ever sen our primarch fight? That is perfection"

 lcmiracle wrote:
That don't change the fact that the White Scars are what they are: pagans, probably genuinely nice guys now that I've found out about them, but still pagans.

“The Imperial Creed is highly flexible and is tailored by Missionaries to fit the native culture, religion, and practices of whatever world it exists upon. As such, practices adhered to on one world may be held as abhorrent on another. The Ministorum tolerates this vast range of practices and beliefs, as it would be impossible to maintain a complete standardization of the faith across the Imperium.”
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Cult
The Imperial Cult is not Christianity, nor even the Catholic church. Your definition of “pagan” does not matter. I am just lazy to find a better source, but believing in spirits, as long as the Emperor is above and beyond them, is certainly not a problem. It is all about the presentation.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Don't use ad hominem on me Oxayolt

I am sorry, I am just a neglected nun player that need more attention.

@oxayotl you seem to forget that Christianity is a blanket term for various branches that holds varying beliefs from when the day of sabbath is to drastic difference between denominations which book in the Bible should be held canon. Come to think of it they are quite alike.

The most important thing in the imperial creed is that the emperor "is nothing less than a god whom they devote their entire lives to" -- exact word in the past 3 rule books. This is the faith of the Ecclesiarchy, devotion, no idol, no false religion. And what happens when the faith explicitly states that the Emperor is no god but a great man? White Scar is so, no that they are the only one (besides the Space Wolves). That's their bottom line.

@mr Morden: if your impression is that I'm saying that SW and WS are somehow the same or very similar, then I apologies. I weren't saying that; I'm not stupid nor insensitively enough to not be able to tell a Norse-Viking inspired fantasy race from a Mongol-raider inspired one.

It's (or was) my intention to show that there are fundamental difference between WS and the Eccelisiarchy's beliefs. In the absence of existing fluff it was all I can do to compare the SW to the WS in their very similar belief and practices. The SW had burnt many bridges before, but it was never "I went to A to mess gak up just 'cause", the fluff made it clear that the Ecclesiarchy made there move to inspect the SW first, not the SW went to Ecclesiarchy convoys and blew gak up for no reason.

The White Scars may be less provoking, sure, that doesn't mean there will not be conflicts between the two.

and to think otherwise is only wishful thinking by you the neglected nun players who just need more attention.

there is a german saying... it translates to "hurt dogs bark"

 lcmiracle wrote:
@oxayotl you seem to forget that Christianity is a blanket term for various branches that holds varying beliefs from when the day of sabbath is to drastic difference between denominations which book in the Bible should be held canon.

Yeah, and quite disunited, and quite likely to kill each other over dogmatic difference, and very wary of “pagan” stuff. That is very off-topic anyway.

 lcmiracle wrote:
And what happens when the faith explicitly states that the Emperor is no god but a great man? White Scar is so, no that they are the only one (besides the Space Wolves).

Yeah, but contrarily to the wolves, they are diplomatic enough to keep this to themselves. It makes working with them easier.
Now if you want to convince people that the Sisters never ally with space marines that consider the Emperor to be only a man, well… the Sisters' fluff say they do, begrudgingly so but still.

 lcmiracle wrote:
The White Scars may be less provoking, sure, that doesn't mean there will not be conflicts between the two.

It sure means there will be less conflict, though. Provocation tend to lead to conflict, curiously.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
@oxayotl you seem to forget that Christianity is a blanket term for various branches that holds varying beliefs from when the day of sabbath is to drastic difference between denominations which book in the Bible should be held canon.

Yeah, and quite disunited, and quite likely to kill each other over dogmatic difference, and very wary of “pagan” stuff. That is very off-topic anyway.

The 23 Catholic particular churchs has different practices due to historical and geographical reasons, they are still Catholic because of a same faith. Ecclesiarchy is inspired by real-lfe Catholicism practices. But you are right, it is off topic and why did you mention something you do no know?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
And what happens when the faith explicitly states that the Emperor is no god but a great man? White Scar is so, no that they are the only one (besides the Space Wolves).

Yeah, but contrarily to the wolves, they are diplomatic enough to keep this to themselves. It makes working with them easier.
Now if you want to convince people that the Sisters never ally with space marines that consider the Emperor to be only a man, well… the Sisters' fluff say they do, begrudgingly so but still.

Putting words in my mouth still? I'd already said that I can ally the even SOB with the SW if I want to; I've never said the WS and SOB can't be allies.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
The White Scars may be less provoking, sure, that doesn't mean there will not be conflicts between the two.

It sure means there will be less conflict, though. Provocation tend to lead to conflict, curiously.

I'll give you that

One thing to remember is that the SoB don't usually let anyone but the Canoness and maybe a few senior Sisters Superior even speak with "outsiders". The sisters won't be sharing any religious rituals with the marines unless they're a certified "Emperor is a god" Chapter, and probably not even then. And even less sharing of free time as neither has much of that.

Looking a bit savage in battle makes no difference as long as you kill the enemies of mankind. The SoB have seen a lot of cultures when fighting alongside the Imperial Guard too. Shouting the name of your Primarch? Well, he's a saint isn't he? Taking skulls as trophies? As long as you don't shout "skulls for the skull throne" who cares?

 lcmiracle wrote:
I'll give you that

Really? Because that was the original point of Mr Morden that you have been arguing against all this time.

Not even answering you on the off-topic discussion.

I'll give you that there will be less conflict; I'm not convinced that that less conflict can lead to a good working relationship.

I've been arguing that there will be trait incompatibilities, I've been saying the WS will lead to grudges. I was your opinion that the "flexibility" of the Imperial creed would bypass that -- it won't.

Fluff-wise nothing stops a Space Wolves force from fighting with or against the SOB (no anymore anyways).

Fluff-wise a Space Wolf force helped a Shrine World despite open hostility on both sides. The current fluff states that all Imperial forces allies as Battle Brothers. That don't make it that the internal conflicts and incompatibilities between the two parties go away.

Again, I never argued that WS can't ally with the SOB or that they have to be Ally of Convenience. But if the current fluff applies your alliance's relationship will not get away with "oh they will have synergy because one party is less of a dick".

P.S.: not that many alliances in the IoM are actually "buddies", unless otherwise stated that a party has long friendly relationships, the allies are there just for the mission at hand.

 lcmiracle wrote:
I'll give you that there will be less conflict; I'm not convinced that that less conflict can lead to a good working relationship.

I am pretty sure having less conflict with someone leads to a better working relationship than having more conflict with that someone.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
I'll give you that there will be less conflict; I'm not convinced that that less conflict can lead to a good working relationship.

I am pretty sure having less conflict with someone leads to a better working relationship than having more conflict with that someone.

Keyword: "Good". Not "better".

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure having less conflict with someone leads to a better working relationship than having more conflict with that someone.

That's just wishfull thinking, nun player. If SW are enemies with SOB successor legions better do the same, otherwise SW get angry, attack the successor chapter, take everything and piss on it to mark it as theirs. obviously.