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I think the two are inextricably linked...

Well, again, it's all down to preference.

I personally can't stand the child/midget look of 28mm's next to 1/48, especially after having experienced so many WW2 era vehicles in the flesh; they are small. Modern MBT's are a different story altogether, but a Panzer IV is teeny tiny and a T-34 was incredibly claustrophobic and scary to ride in.

So, for me, since I use a wide variety of manufacturers for 28mm figures, I want my vehicles all in the same scale regardless of proportions. Now, from the chunkier/heroic Warlord 28's to the finer Perry 28's, they are all the same height (just not girth), and I don't want my DAK Tiger to be 1/56 and my Waffen-SS Tiger to be 1/48.

We had several long discusssions about this and came to the conclusion that many of us didn't actaully want it in scale but to look "right" - or more accurately how we think it should look - the warlord jeeps and armoured transports just look freally small and the tanks a bit small.

Now in reality this may be due to much history with 40k etc but for many of us its how it looks on the table rather than being in scale

Big P wrote:
Thankfully with 20mm and 1/72, one thing I dont have to worry about is vehicle scale or availability. With so many more years development its alot easier.

Yes, yes, the One True Scale To Rule Them All...

Big P wrote:
I think the two are inextricably linked...

Well sure but WL's success as a miniature manufacturer is not really tied up with BA being the only game in town as far as WW2 rules are concerned, since they are not (even close). WL's miniatures may not be the best available in 28mm in every instance but they have the all-too-often underestimated advantage of being branded together in a product line. IME it is hard for more established gamers to understand how important this actually is to building a market. The obstacles to getting involved with miniatures gaming as a hobby are severely high but it is really, really easy to forget that once you have been deep into it for years or even decades.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
[
At the bottom of this thread is a comparison of a Warlord Sherman to a 1.48 Tamiya Sherman: http://forum.wwpd.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5035

Good Thread and looks like they had many of the same ideas that we did. Of particular note was an individual poster who noted that the difference in height of a 1/48 (2.1 inches) and 1/56 Sherman (1.9 inches) is 0.2 inches. I realize that 1/5 of an inch is 5mm and quite alot to some hobbyists. Still, without making judgements about either side, I think the entire debate simply boils down to...

whether 1/5 of an inch matters to you.

It doesn't to me and In most cases I'll mix and match happily within 10 fractional degrees or so. (I routinely mix 1/43, 1/48 and 1/50 in other genres), but if unity of scale and height matters to someone else then there's certainly nothing wrong with sticking with one scale.

All my AFVs are in 1/56. I have no problem playing against an opponent whose AFV's are easier to shoot. But I don't want any 1/48 in my own collection as a matter of consistency.

 Manchu wrote:

Big P wrote:
I think the two are inextricably linked...

Well sure but WL's success as a miniature manufacturer is not really tied up with BA being the only game in town as far as WW2 rules are concerned, since they are not (even close). WL's miniatures may not be the best available in 28mm in every instance but they have the all-too-often underestimated advantage of being branded together in a product line. IME it is hard for more established gamers to understand how important this actually is to building a market. The obstacles to getting involved with miniatures gaming as a hobby are severely high but it is really, really easy to forget that once you have been deep into it for years or even decades.

We will agree to differ as to how important BA is to Warlords continued and future success. And id warrant, to most BA players it certainly is the only game in town...

Their branding of the product line is simply what they did when at GW. An all in one package. It works. For the reasons you state it allows an easy entry into a disparate and complicated market. They have simplified the way to access WW2 and I think done it better and easier than FoW by offering product pattern that is familiar, especially to ex-40k gamers and the like. That familiarity eases the player in and makes it all the more accessible.

Big P wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Big P wrote:
I think the two are inextricably linked...

Well sure but WL's success as a miniature manufacturer is not really tied up with BA being the only game in town as far as WW2 rules are concerned, since they are not (even close). WL's miniatures may not be the best available in 28mm in every instance but they have the all-too-often underestimated advantage of being branded together in a product line. IME it is hard for more established gamers to understand how important this actually is to building a market. The obstacles to getting involved with miniatures gaming as a hobby are severely high but it is really, really easy to forget that once you have been deep into it for years or even decades.

We will agree to differ as to how important BA is to Warlords continued and future success. And id warrant, to most BA players it certainly is the only game in town...

Their branding of the product line is simply what they did when at GW. An all in one package. It works. For the reasons you state it allows an easy entry into a disparate and complicated market. They have simplified the way to access WW2 and I think done it better and easier than FoW by offering product pattern that is familiar, especially to ex-40k gamers and the like. That familiarity eases the player in and makes it all the more accessible.

Even for peeps that have been playing games for a long long time like myself, who also enjoys researching the historical side of things (especially WSS uniforms and such), Warlord's all-in-one branding just makes it a hell of a lot easier. Especially when I can just be like, oh, I want to start Italian Airborne, I'll buy the one starter platoon box that has command, a squad, sniper, flamethrower, mortar, and then another pack of a squad of dudes, and I've got most of an army ready to go. While searching across a dozen different manufacturers for a specialty figure has it's place, I don't want to be ordering from a dozen different manufacturers because manufacturer A only does infantry and manufacturer C has some support weapons but no crew but maybe manufacturer E has some vehicles... or the recent Panzer IV Zug, which I nabbed as soon as it came out, because it has three Panzer IV's in plastic with the F1, F2/G, and H options - of which I made one of each

It's also interesting to see what Warlord has done vis-a-vis "competitors". Notice that they carry Perry's WW2 figs in their store and basically have a non-compete with them. (They also carry Victrix and Perry Napoleonics, etc, along with their own Warlord figures)

I like Warlords take on business. They supply a good bunch but do not restrict players to only buying their miniatures. Actually looks pretty good when you mix and match different manufacturers with different poses and such. I personally haven't found any real differences in the few that I have bought and I cant tell the difference between them once painted.

Scale just comes down to the player. What do you want to see? I think the 28mm guys look great standing next to 1/48 vehicles and historical accuracy aside they look wonky sitting next to the 1/56 scale vehicles. I think the over whelming thing here is, armies look weird when you mix scales within them.

There is a Sherman tank here on campus. You want me to measure it?

Mr Morden wrote:We had several long discusssions about this and came to the conclusion that many of us didn't actaully want it in scale but to look "right" - or more accurately how we think it should look - the warlord jeeps and armoured transports just look freally small and the tanks a bit small.

Now in reality this may be due to much history with 40k etc but for many of us its how it looks on the table rather than being in scale

Yeah, definitely comes down to preference.

I think for me, it has little to do with 40k (which has crazy cartoon proportioned vehicles, some of which may be too big but others are vastly too small!) and more to do with the width of the infantry being unrealistically large in relation to the size of the vehicles. A lot of it probably just comes down to the hatches.

I know T-34's and Panzer IV's were tight inside... but they weren't so tight that you'd have to dislocate a shoulder just to fit through the hatch which is what a lot of Warlord's models look like. If anything that's more reminisce of a 40k Leman Russ than anything else And when you consider the size of the breech mechanism inside a turret it goes from "that looks claustrophobic" to "they don't look like they could physically fit"






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Big P wrote:
Id probably go the route of Perry/Foundry/old Westwind with 1/56th vehicles if I was gonna do 28mm WW2.

Yeah, if I can find a full range of realistically proportioned infantry to go with 1/56 models I'd probably go that way as well, I was struggling to find a range that was both cohesive and expansive enough for what I wanted which is why I ended up going down the 1/72 and 15mm path.

One thing to consider with choosing scale, 1:48 lacks a lot of vehicles. 1/56 will have pretty much everything you could want for Bolt Action (for example, you cannot get a Chaffee in 1:48 scale, but 1:56 is no problem).

With 1/72 or 20mm you don't have this problem, but in looking around for 1:48 'specialty' tanks and vehicles I could not find: Tetrarchs, Chaffees, M-22 Locusts, much variety for M3s or M5s, and other similar vehicles.

Shermans, Greyhounds, Jeeps were easy. Once you got out of that select group not so much (at least for American vehicles).

1/72 will give you the largest range of stuff, 1/56 is the next best scale for finding everything under the sun. JTFM, Company B, Warlord, and about 3 or 4 other companies make stuff in 1/56 (and being primarily gamer focused, they make tons of stuff to round out popular games).

I tend to use 1/48 Tamiya kits (or Aoshima or Nitto) for 28mm as they are way cheaper here than buying a resin kit from overseas (and in most cases you get a bunch of extra equipment like helmets, radios, buckets, etc.) The downside is the gutting of the range that occurs every year and you get stuck with a depleted range. As for aircraft, 1/72 Tamiya kits primarily.

How do the WGF WWII 28mm compare I'm terms of size to bolt action tanks I wonder?

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
One thing to consider with choosing scale, 1:48 lacks a lot of vehicles. 1/56 will have pretty much everything you could want for Bolt Action (for example, you cannot get a Chaffee in 1:48 scale, but 1:56 is no problem).

With 1/72 or 20mm you don't have this problem, but in looking around for 1:48 'specialty' tanks and vehicles I could not find: Tetrarchs, Chaffees, M-22 Locusts, much variety for M3s or M5s, and other similar vehicles.

Shermans, Greyhounds, Jeeps were easy. Once you got out of that select group not so much (at least for American vehicles).

1/72 will give you the largest range of stuff, 1/56 is the next best scale for finding everything under the sun. JTFM, Company B, Warlord, and about 3 or 4 other companies make stuff in 1/56 (and being primarily gamer focused, they make tons of stuff to round out popular games).

That's true. One of the challenging things when you're just starting out in WW2 stuff without a lot of background is firstly knowing what is available in what time periods for what armies and then finding out who makes models in what scales and whether you can actually assemble the force you want at the scale you want. It's probably nothing for some of the more experienced guys, but for a newbie like me it can be quite daunting.

Though just FYI, there is a 1/48 Chaffee made by Ken Swenson. I have no idea where you can buy it or how available it is though, lol.

 Red_Starrise wrote:
How do the WGF WWII 28mm compare I'm terms of size to bolt action tanks I wonder?

WGF plastics are more "true scale" and not heroic like warlord's. However they don't look too bad together on the table.
The main difference is thinner ankles and arms, smaller hands and heads for the WGF troops, plus all WGF does so far is infantry except for some soviet anti tank guns.

The nice thing about heroic scale is the figures won't break quite as fast.

Here is a link showing the figures side by side:
http://forum.wwpd.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5670

The heck with Wargames factory, those Tamiya figures blow both of them out of the water even with the Warlord rifle. Hmmmm

They do look nice, and surprisingly they're very similar to the size of Warlord's 28mm models, really goes to show how much heroic scaling beefs up models. That's actually the first time I've looked at 1/48 infantry, lol, I wonder how expansive the range is, maybe I can bypass 28mm altogether and just go 1/48, haha.

Quite a few 1/48th bits around now, especially if you include resins too...

They seem to be scaled down versions of the 1/35th sets;

Big P wrote:
Quite a few 1/48th bits around now, especially if you include resins too...

They seem to be scaled down versions of the 1/35th sets;

They are. And they suffer from the usual Tamiya problem - they're too slender, the uniforms are too tight-fitting, and the legs tend to look too long. Perversely, the chunky/heroic look actually seems more natural.

I would have to see more Tamiya models to make that call. From the pics on that link, the scale seems very realistic. I will have to hunt down and see if they make Falshirmjaegers and pick up a box to mix in with my existing Artizan and WL troops.

Col. Dash wrote:
I would have to see more Tamiya models to make that call. From the pics on that link, the scale seems very realistic. I will have to hunt down and see if they make Falshirmjaegers and pick up a box to mix in with my existing Artizan and WL troops.

It's always a matter of taste. A lot of 1/35 scale modellers prefer not to use Tamiya figures (the faces are pretty bland too, compared to other manufacturers' figures). I think the main issue is the weapons, which are true scale and therefore very fragile. You'd be looking at replacing them with Warlord plastic weapons.

Now if only Dragon would do their 1/35th stuff at 1/48th...

Big P wrote:
Now if only Dragon would do their 1/35th stuff at 1/48th...

Or Masterbox., or Miniart.

I see Tamiya are releasing a 1/35 scale Somua S35. That probably means it will appear in 1/48 scale at some point. The steady proliferation of early war plastic kits in 1/48 scale is tempting me to head in that direction, even though I prefer 1/56. Particularly as Rubicon and Warlord (the only 1/56 scale plastic kit producers) seem intend on duplicating the same vehicles - Warlord are about to release a T-34/76, having just done the Tiger I (both are already available from Rubicon), while Rubicon are talking about an M3 half-track (already available from Warlord). The same thing happened in 1/35 scale for a long time.

 Tailgunner wrote:

Big P wrote:
Quite a few 1/48th bits around now, especially if you include resins too...

They seem to be scaled down versions of the 1/35th sets;

They are. And they suffer from the usual Tamiya problem - they're too slender, the uniforms are too tight-fitting, and the legs tend to look too long. Perversely, the chunky/heroic look actually seems more natural.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. A couple of Tamiya figures look like they're wearing excessively tight pants, particularly in the German Infantry set. The rest look fine to me, far better than heroic scale to me. I really dislike heroic scale. I started off wargaming with WHFB and 40k, as soon as I saw more realistically scaled models next to the heroic scaled GW models it hit me like a ton of bricks, what has been seen cannot be unseen and now it sticks out like a sore thumb to me when models have the giant heads and hands of heroic scale.

Only problem with 1/48th figures is they are made with the diorama people in mind, not war gamers. You'll find a lack of mortar teams and MMGs, and many of the available figures are in sitting around or standing poses, they aren't like the Warlord infantry boxes. You can kit bash a bit, but beware.

I used to do 1/35 scale years ago. Many of the same kits are still available.

Yeah I wasn't really expecting 1/48 to have a wide range of infantry, but I haven't really checked what's out there.

 Eilif wrote:

With metal figures you are almost always going to have the big hands, weapons, wrists and usually slightly bigger bodies to match them and probably big heads following that.

To an extent, but aside from the "heroic" parts of the jeep's crew, they're just too crowded/small to fit in a realistic number of crew and passengers without looking ridiculous. I know all about the reasoning behind both heroic and true-scale - and like and own plenty of both - my point is that the vehicles are still a little small at 1:56

Col. Dash wrote:
I would have to see more Tamiya models to make that call. From the pics on that link, the scale seems very realistic. I will have to hunt down and see if they make Falshirmjaegers and pick up a box to mix in with my existing Artizan and WL troops.

The tanks, vehicles and guns are all amazing, but the figures are way too fragile for wargaming. All your guys will have the barrels of their weapons snapped off after a couple of games.