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 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You haven't faced flayed ones yet. You desperately need ranged support like lobbas and kmk to have a chance against wraiths + flayed ones combo. They're dead choppy.

I've never gone against flayed ones, are they that scary? The fact that they have armor 4 makes them sound a bit less frightening, what do they get, warrior stats but 2-3 attacks? I tend to have a lot to deal with armor 4, from heavy bolters to deathwing knights.

They get 3 base attacks, shred, fear, ap5, 4+ followed by RP (4+++ with decursion or potentially 4+++ with rerolls), infiltrate, deep strike. And they cost...10 ppm(?) or something like this.

Necron player ties you up with wraiths and than charges with a pack of flayed ones. If you can't significantly shrink their numbers before they get into mellee with you, expect A LOT of casualties. Statistically, if, say, 15 flayed ones get to strike on the charge, that's 15 ap5 wounds after fnp. And don't expect to kill much in return.

Woof, the infiltrate and deep strike I did not know about. Something that seems like a semi-sturdy target becomes a lot more worrisome when it can start a lot close to you than their deployment zone.

And the fact that they'll get 5 attacks on the charge seems rather unpleasant. So... 18 vs 5 DW knights (one of my best melee units)... I'll kill ~3, then they'll make 75 attacks against me.

EDIT: looked it up, they're 13 ppm

4 attacks on the charge, i believe. Yep, 13 ppm - corrected me. Yet, it's worth it for what they get.

 koooaei wrote:
4 attacks on the charge, i believe. Yep, 13 ppm - corrected me. Yet, it's worth it for what they get.

Don't they count as having two of those claws? 3 base, two CC weps, and charge for 5.

Well... If I may I would like to take this conversation in a whole new direction. We have already stated that necrons are VERY hard to kill and most head on melee strats won't work. Well what about a bike heavy list! Going around the enemy grabbed killpoints (or holding objectives) and abusing the flayed ones low maneuverability. ANNND arm them with melta-esk (not sure if orks have meltas, but I know they have bikes) to shoot down some wraiths and tomb blades that attempt to stop you. And op here is the answer to your question. No I do not believe in the current edition of the rules the green tide formation could stop melee crons from the information displayed and watching some batreps it just doesn't seem at all plausible. Da boyz would just get all cut up :(

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Well... If I may I would like to take this conversation in a whole new direction. We have already stated that necrons are VERY hard to kill and most head on melee strats won't work. Well what about a bike heavy list! Going around the enemy grabbed killpoints (or holding objectives) and abusing the flayed ones low maneuverability. ANNND arm them with melta-esk (not sure if orks have meltas, but I know they have bikes) to shoot down some wraiths and tomb blades that attempt to stop you. And op here is the answer to your question. No I do not believe in the current edition of the rules the green tide formation could stop melee crons from the information displayed and watching some batreps it just doesn't seem at all plausible. Da boyz would just get all cut up :(

Against flayed ones you'd be fine, but you run into the issue that wraiths are jump or jet or whichever, and move 12" as well, so almost impossible to outrun unless you turbo boost everywhere. The other downside is that bikes mean less models, which means less dakka.

Also, plasma (or grav if you have it) would be better than melta I'd think. Better range means you can avoid their charges more easily, and more shots which lets you deal with wraith invuln saves more easily.

I'm beginning to think more and more that there really isn't that much in the game that can deal with wraiths, outside of superheavies

You may indeed be correct...

Don't get me wrong - they're not completely unkillable and they can be dealt with. Although, i do believe that purely mellee crons would wreck greentide point-to-point, the thing that's going in our favor is that we're not likely to meet a pure mellee cron force. What we might see is a bunch of wraiths, praetorians and a squad of flayed ones. Other stuff will be shooty but not extremely killy. Which is fine.

Unless your opponent is list-tailoring, you're gona be fine with a tac list, i think.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Melee is back in 40K and I am jut really pleased by that. the shooting is king days are not entirely gone but they are mostly gone.

Melee isn't "back in 40k", it's good for a single Necron unit. As you saw, orks, the most stabby army in the game, can't do against wraiths. No one can do against wraiths. You either have strength D weapons or you put 100 shots into them and hope they fail rolls. The riptide that everyone complains about? Wraiths are more durable than it, when you factor in RP.

They will almost hands down beat any other melee unit of equal points. Termies? Not a chance. Even with TH/SS you're inferior, and cost more. TWC? Slightly better chance because you can get S10, but having a thunder hammer makes you cost almost twice as much. And they will hands down wreck any type of assault marines or vanguard vets, 2 or 3 dead marines, vs 1 wound taken off a wraith. That will reanimate 50% of the time if we kill it.

I'm not overly familiar with the eldar, but given the fact that the imperium can't do anything against them I doubt they have any melee units that can deal with T5 3++ any easier.

I faced Wraiths in my last game. they died and never got to charge. I think this is the pattern people should use. Lol.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Well... If I may I would like to take this conversation in a whole new direction. We have already stated that necrons are VERY hard to kill and most head on melee strats won't work. Well what about a bike heavy list! Going around the enemy grabbed killpoints (or holding objectives) and abusing the flayed ones low maneuverability. ANNND arm them with melta-esk (not sure if orks have meltas, but I know they have bikes) to shoot down some wraiths and tomb blades that attempt to stop you. And op here is the answer to your question. No I do not believe in the current edition of the rules the green tide formation could stop melee crons from the information displayed and watching some batreps it just doesn't seem at all plausible. Da boyz would just get all cut up :(

Against flayed ones you'd be fine, but you run into the issue that wraiths are jump or jet or whichever, and move 12" as well, so almost impossible to outrun unless you turbo boost everywhere. The other downside is that bikes mean less models, which means less dakka.

Also, plasma (or grav if you have it) would be better than melta I'd think. Better range means you can avoid their charges more easily, and more shots which lets you deal with wraith invuln saves more easily.

I'm beginning to think more and more that there really isn't that much in the game that can deal with wraiths, outside of superheavies

There really isn't, at least not for anything even remotely near an equivalent points cost. Even something like a 160pt Leman Russ Punisher with 29 S5 shots is killing a single 40pt Wraith a turn on average, not even that if it's got RP (especially 4+ Decurion RP).

 Jancoran wrote:
I faced Wraiths in my last game. they died and never got to charge. I think this is the pattern people should use. Lol.

Just curious, how many wraiths, how much shooting? And did you kill them turn 1, or did you sit everything in your deployment zone so they couldn't get to you turn 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, just looking at if I go max shooty, 25 marines all packed together under the dakka banner for 100 shots... I can potentially kill 2 wraiths, and that's 445 points worth of models to kill 80 points worth of wraiths.

Just bring a Knight or Warhound. D strength weapons will do it easily, and much more besides.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Just bring a Knight or Warhound. D strength weapons will do it easily, and much more besides.

Haha, part of what I said earlier is actually if you can do it without using superheavies. Not a huge fan of big stuff like that, especially when we're talking anything sub-2000.

Then again, you can spam wraiths at any point level, so don't see why I shouldn't run a knight at 1000 points.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Just bring a Knight or Warhound. D strength weapons will do it easily, and much more besides.

Hrm, a unit of 6 Wraiths with Whipcoils costs about 100pts less than a Knight, and actually matches the Knight pretty well in CC, and likely won't take much in the way of casualties from shooting (between scatter, 3++, and T5 preventing ID, and possibly RP on top).

A Knight can fight a bloody stalemate with a roughly even chance of victory (assuming no RP), but for a 100pt premium, that's not great.

Again, Invisible Flesh Hounds with Herald + Axe, Grimoire and Hatred kill Wraiths, even in mathhammer. And don't cost a million points either.

"Bu-bu-but so much effort and your unit is buffed to the max!"

So are the Wraiths who are benefiting from the Decurion. Wraiths that don't benefit from one are actually fairly easy to deal with. But, the best strategy is to just tarpit them.

Yeah that's about the only thing I've seen that'll do it.

Even that's variable however.

I'm pretty sure that hammerhand greentide could beat them in one go if you're crazy enough to roll on sanctic with a wierdboy

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah that's about the only thing I've seen that'll do it.

Even that's variable however.

True. Failing grimoire or invisibility will both cause casualties. If you have 18 or so Flesh Hounds I've personally managed to fail either once and come out on top, but if they fail many turns in a row things start getting hairy.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I faced Wraiths in my last game. they died and never got to charge. I think this is the pattern people should use. Lol.

Just curious, how many wraiths, how much shooting? And did you kill them turn 1, or did you sit everything in your deployment zone so they couldn't get to you turn 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, just looking at if I go max shooty, 25 marines all packed together under the dakka banner for 100 shots... I can potentially kill 2 wraiths, and that's 445 points worth of models to kill 80 points worth of wraiths.

There were 6 in the unit. He seized initiatve on me and went first. I killed four on my turn. On his turn I had scattered too far for him to kill anyone and then finished him and all his Scarabs in the next round (bomber showed up and the Riptide combined fire, plus the Broadsides.

You obviously meant flash gitz and looted wagonz

 Jancoran wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I faced Wraiths in my last game. they died and never got to charge. I think this is the pattern people should use. Lol.

Just curious, how many wraiths, how much shooting? And did you kill them turn 1, or did you sit everything in your deployment zone so they couldn't get to you turn 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, just looking at if I go max shooty, 25 marines all packed together under the dakka banner for 100 shots... I can potentially kill 2 wraiths, and that's 445 points worth of models to kill 80 points worth of wraiths.

There were 6 in the unit. He seized initiatve on me and went first. I killed four on my turn. On his turn I had scattered too far for him to kill anyone and then finished him and all his Scarabs in the next round (bomber showed up and the Riptide combined fire, plus the Broadsides.

I'm asking how many points of models fired at those 240 points of wraiths. A riptide and broadsides are already what, 400 points?

If you go even points value of missilesides vs 3 wraiths, two of them is more expensive than 3 wraiths. And their combined firepower will take one wound off a wraith per shooting phase.

Point for point, wraiths are more survivable than anything else in the game.

Against Wraiths I'd think spamming HYMP and autocannons would be your best bet- S7 means you don't care about their toughness, crappy AP means you aren't wasting points on good AP against a model that doesn't care and both of them have a high RoF.

3++/4+++ means one in six wounds goes unsaved. At S7 that means roughly 13-14 autocannon/HYMP hits to down a Wraith.

What are the most cost effective ways of getting those hits?

 Galorian wrote:
Against Wraiths I'd think spamming HYMP and autocannons would be your best bet- S7 means you don't care about their toughness, crappy AP means you aren't wasting points on good AP against a model that doesn't care and both of them have a high RoF.

3++/4+++ means one in six wounds goes unsaved. At S7 that means roughly 13-14 autocannon/HYMP hits to down a Wraith.

What are the most cost effective ways of getting those hits?

Points wise for autocannons would probably be havocs, 4 autocannons at 115 points (just under the cost of 3 wraiths). Which would be about 5 hits per turn, meaning maybe a wound a turn.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I would personally have enjoyed watching a green tide teleport itself with Gate of Infinity.

I have done it before when I took powers from the Waaaagh! table. It caused my Dark Angel opponent to forfeit as I accomplished the feat on turn 2, landing just a few inches away from his defense line. He had everything lined up there and he'd be multi charged and end up losing out XD Weirdboyz in the tide are oddly helpful. Feels good to get some serious mileage out of my favorite unit.

It was a risky move, but I barely managed to not mishap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
I don't really know how this is a problem... My berzerkers keep em down really nice, just played a 1500 point game where I only lost 5 berzerkers and I tabled my necron opponent. Especially because you are an ork player I thought your ability to drown him in attacks would cancel out a 4+ save... Huh guess I haven't played against to many necrons...

I thought the same. And even with Hammerhand giving a +2 strength bonus, the 4+ armor they have in addition to a 4+ reanimation is absurd due to their formation. Amnd with everythign else having either 3+ armor or 3+ invuls, its neigh impossible for even a massed blob of Boyz to hack through them in a timely manner. Their leadership is solid, so you can barely make them flee once you FINALLY drop them down low enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Well... If I may I would like to take this conversation in a whole new direction. We have already stated that necrons are VERY hard to kill and most head on melee strats won't work. Well what about a bike heavy list! Going around the enemy grabbed killpoints (or holding objectives) and abusing the flayed ones low maneuverability. ANNND arm them with melta-esk (not sure if orks have meltas, but I know they have bikes) to shoot down some wraiths and tomb blades that attempt to stop you. And op here is the answer to your question. No I do not believe in the current edition of the rules the green tide formation could stop melee crons from the information displayed and watching some batreps it just doesn't seem at all plausible. Da boyz would just get all cut up :(

As I stated in my opening post, winning via victory points is a lot easier. Necrons really are not that mobile outside of their Tomb Blades, Jump Infantry and Wraiths. Their other vehicles are kinda slow, warriors or immortals on foot are kinda a joke. This is where Ob. Sec Orks really shine. In our first game with his new book, I did just that. Squads of Ob. Sec Boyz and Grots rushing around to hold objectives and force him back off of his own when I got too close to a unit he didn't want tied up (like his Destroyers).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm pretty sure that hammerhand greentide could beat them in one go if you're crazy enough to roll on sanctic with a wierdboy

I was that crazy once. (Last game) and it was awesome. Except against Necron :p

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I faced Wraiths in my last game. they died and never got to charge. I think this is the pattern people should use. Lol.

Just curious, how many wraiths, how much shooting? And did you kill them turn 1, or did you sit everything in your deployment zone so they couldn't get to you turn 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, just looking at if I go max shooty, 25 marines all packed together under the dakka banner for 100 shots... I can potentially kill 2 wraiths, and that's 445 points worth of models to kill 80 points worth of wraiths.

There were 6 in the unit. He seized initiatve on me and went first. I killed four on my turn. On his turn I had scattered too far for him to kill anyone and then finished him and all his Scarabs in the next round (bomber showed up and the Riptide combined fire, plus the Broadsides.

I'm asking how many points of models fired at those 240 points of wraiths. A riptide and broadsides are already what, 400 points?

If you go even points value of missilesides vs 3 wraiths, two of them is more expensive than 3 wraiths. And their combined firepower will take one wound off a wraith per shooting phase.

Point for point, wraiths are more survivable than anything else in the game.

I think your math is a little off. But to be more exact the Missileside unit causes 3.05 unsaved wounds per round just with the High Yield Missiles, and the Seeker Missiles do 1.83. So in reality, the Missile side unit can actually peel 5 Wraith Wounds in one go if averages hold. A Riptide that hits them gets two more wounds off them, possible more. So you're down 3-4 Wraiths without much in the way of luck being needed. Adding up points spent is pointLESS because ultimately the prioritization was the right move to KEEP those self same points active longer. Points aren't unlimited and neither is the enemy speed.

I finished them off in the next round. Done and done. In the meantime i just kept clear of the other stuff by backing away etc... Had a little bad luck struck i might have lost some body shielding but ultimately, Once the Scarabs and the Wraiths were gone, it was smooth sailing.

 Jancoran wrote:
I think your math is a little off. But to be more exact the Missileside unit causes 3.05 unsaved wounds per round just with the High Yield Missiles, and the Seeker Missiles do 1.83. So in reality, the Missile side unit can actually peel 5 Wraith Wounds in one go if averages hold. A Riptide that hits them gets two more wounds off them, possible more. So you're down 3-4 Wraiths without much in the way of luck being needed. Adding up points spent is pointLESS because ultimately the prioritization was the right move to KEEP those self same points active longer. Points aren't unlimited and neither is the enemy speed.

I finished them off in the next round. Done and done. In the meantime i just kept clear of the other stuff by backing away etc... Had a little bad luck struck i might have lost some body shielding but ultimately, Once the Scarabs and the Wraiths were gone, it was smooth sailing.

Are you saying a full squad of 3 missilesides? Or 2, which is points equivalent to wraiths?

Even if you use 3 broadsides with missiles... 12 TL HYMP shots means 9 hits (6, then reroll for another 3). Wound on 2s, so 7.5 wounds. 3++ means 2.5 wounds. RP on 4+ means 1.25 wounds from the pods.

Then the seekers, 12 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 after save, .75 after RP.

Means a total of 2 wounds. I think your math is a little off.

And the reason I bring up points is that, if you bring more points worth of broadsides, your opponent will bring more points worth of wraiths. 3 broadsides and a riptide means he can have a dozen wraiths, and the broadsides are killing 1 a turn.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I think your math is a little off. But to be more exact the Missileside unit causes 3.05 unsaved wounds per round just with the High Yield Missiles, and the Seeker Missiles do 1.83. So in reality, the Missile side unit can actually peel 5 Wraith Wounds in one go if averages hold. A Riptide that hits them gets two more wounds off them, possible more. So you're down 3-4 Wraiths without much in the way of luck being needed. Adding up points spent is pointLESS because ultimately the prioritization was the right move to KEEP those self same points active longer. Points aren't unlimited and neither is the enemy speed.

I finished them off in the next round. Done and done. In the meantime i just kept clear of the other stuff by backing away etc... Had a little bad luck struck i might have lost some body shielding but ultimately, Once the Scarabs and the Wraiths were gone, it was smooth sailing.

Are you saying a full squad of 3 missilesides? Or 2, which is points equivalent to wraiths?

Even if you use 3 broadsides with missiles... 12 TL HYMP shots means 9 hits (6, then reroll for another 3). Wound on 2s, so 7.5 wounds. 3++ means 2.5 wounds. RP on 4+ means 1.25 wounds from the pods.

Then the seekers, 12 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 after save, .75 after RP.

Means a total of 2 wounds. I think your math is a little off.

And the reason I bring up points is that, if you bring more points worth of broadsides, your opponent will bring more points worth of wraiths. 3 broadsides and a riptide means he can have a dozen wraiths, and the broadsides are killing 1 a turn.

Yes there were three. i was using a Highlander list so sadly i had to kind of cram units full. And you're forgetting markerlights. Hitting on 2's, Twin linked.

Hmmm, are you counting that the wraiths get RP on a 4+? Even if you score 12 wounds you're only getting 2 wounds through, where is that 3.05 coming from?

 koooaei wrote:

4 attacks on the charge, i believe. Yep, 13 ppm - corrected me. Yet, it's worth it for what they get.

3 attacks base, and they're dual wielding. So 5 on the charge. Put a Destroyer Lord with them and watch the world burn.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

4 attacks on the charge, i believe. Yep, 13 ppm - corrected me. Yet, it's worth it for what they get.

3 attacks base, and they're dual wielding. So 5 on the charge. Put a Destroyer Lord with them and watch the world burn.

Wut. Is there any reasoning behind three attacks base or is this just the author randomly choosing? There are a lot of CC dedicated units that deserve to have just as many (cough... Khorne Berzerkers.. cough) attacks. Is this perhaps a change to CC related units for the future?

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

4 attacks on the charge, i believe. Yep, 13 ppm - corrected me. Yet, it's worth it for what they get.

3 attacks base, and they're dual wielding. So 5 on the charge. Put a Destroyer Lord with them and watch the world burn.

Wut. Is there any reasoning behind three attacks base or is this just the author randomly choosing? There are a lot of CC dedicated units that deserve to have just as many (cough... Khorne Berzerkers.. cough) attacks. Is this perhaps a change to CC related units for the future?

Doubt it's a change for the future, otherwise Orks should have gotten that sort of profile as well, since we are predominantly a choppy army. Not sure on the lore for Flayed Ones, but aren't they supposed to be like, crazy and whatever? Not that it really explains why they of ALL units get 3 base attacks when Boyz, Khorn Berserkers and other CC focused units don't get such a boon.

Melevolence wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

4 attacks on the charge, i believe. Yep, 13 ppm - corrected me. Yet, it's worth it for what they get.

3 attacks base, and they're dual wielding. So 5 on the charge. Put a Destroyer Lord with them and watch the world burn.

Wut. Is there any reasoning behind three attacks base or is this just the author randomly choosing? There are a lot of CC dedicated units that deserve to have just as many (cough... Khorne Berzerkers.. cough) attacks. Is this perhaps a change to CC related units for the future?

Doubt it's a change for the future, otherwise Orks should have gotten that sort of profile as well, since we are predominantly a choppy army. Not sure on the lore for Flayed Ones, but aren't they supposed to be like, crazy and whatever? Not that it really explains why they of ALL units get 3 base attacks when Boyz, Khorn Berserkers and other CC focused units don't get such a boon.

It's probably the fact that they have absolutely no shooting option, and are WS4, I2. Khorne Berserkers have better CC special rules and better WS, and Boyz have shooting attacks and are dirt cheap compared to a Flayed One.