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So me and a buddy of mine played a 2,000 point game the other day. His Necrons vs my Orks. He told me he was interested to see the possibility of a close combat Necron army, and he wanted to see how his list would fare against a Green Tide. I was down with the idea whole heatedly. The last game we had played, I won via Victory Points. He had brought a more anti infantry list, littered with Destroyers, but I had brought a large amount of armor and he lacked the Gauss to handle it, while having to play defensive while my mobile squads of Boyz kept rushing around to get objectives.

So, with his list, he brought two squads of Warriors, a squad of Immortals, a squad of 3 Tomb Blades, the formation with Spyder, Scarabs and 3 Wraiths (He only owns 3), a Stalker, Pretorians and a Lychguard squad with an Overlord w/ Scythe and Obron, the Diviner (I believe that's his name) attached to the Lychguard.

I myself brought a Green Tide (Each of the 10 Squads were composed of 11 Slugga Boyz with Nob, totaling 12 models per squad) with a total of 5 Nob Klaws, and the required Warboss equipped with Big Bosspole and Big Choppa. To accompany that, I brought a Ork Hoard Detachment with a Warboss with Klaw and Lucky Stikk, A Weirdboy Lvl2 taking from the Santic table (Ending up getting Hammerhand and Gate of Infinity), and Painboy for my HQ choices. I took 3 min sized Grot squads for troop taxes, two squads of 3 Deffkopters to help pick off a few models before they got into CC, a squad of 4 Kanz with Skorchas, and lastly 2 Deff Dreads with 3 PKs and Skorchas,

We ended up ending the game a bit early, sadly, as I had to return to my aunts house where I have been dog sitting. (They don't like to be left home alone for too long, or they get rowdy) Though the fight was bloody...and oily? And Necrons will NOT go down. We were in Combat before the end of turn two, but the fighting didn't want to end. At first, my rolls were absolutely abysmal. I continued to get Hammerhand and Force activated with the Weirdboy, who kept getting roughly 7 Warp Charges a turn, and luckily did not peril at all during the game.

I really only managed to clear out the Preytorians, a warrior squad, immobilize the Stalker, kill 4 of the 6 scarab swarms thanks to my Weirdboy's force weapon, killed the Spyder with a Deff Dread, cleared 1 of the Wraiths, and about 5 Lychguard. By the end, he had cleared out well over half the Tide, 2 of the Kanz, all 6 of my Kopters, My second Warboss with the Lucky Stikk zoinked himself when he flubbed exactly 3 rerolls on To Hit against the Stalker, which infuriated me to no end (My Warbosses ALWAYS somehow flub, despite being solid units). The reanimation protocols for the Crons now is a little bit silly at times. I honestly thought that it was supposed to work ONLY if it was their last wound. But, seems that is not the case.

Needless to say by this point, if the match went on, I think I would have ended up losing in the end. Even with S5 attacks on a constant turn for turn basis, and 5+ FNP of my own, he was mopping up more Boyz per turn than I was Necrons. An example was a single Warrior took 11 wounds and saved all of them between armor and his RPs. >,< That's highly, HIGHLY obnoxious.

Not to say the match wasn't fun, as we manically rolled handfuls of dice in a blood and oil infused bath of mayhem.

I suppose the moral of the story is, I shall not underestimate them in CC again. D:

Yeah it's pretty unfortunate about the new rp. U less you up against an actually nice fellow, playing against crons sucks. Our only cron player only owns the old codex so we make him go by the old rules. Wiping out squads for no rp for the win

He's a nice enough guy, I've played him on and off when he had the old dex. I don't feel like anything in their book on its own was over the top by any means. Some of it was surprising, and not really in a bad way. But that RP is so damn silly. I mean, I guess it isn't really much different than the old one, except you had to wait until the end of combat. Which, in hindsight, was a major balancing factor.

Getting to take the RP check as a Feel No Pain-But Not Feel No Pain feels highly obnoxious at times. In other games with the old dex, I could wipe his squad, then prevent him from getting up. But now, they just don't go down at all, and keep chipping away. I hate that they count as saving the wounds, so they can't even be moral checked. All he has to do is squash one Boy and he can sweep my entire squad. Every. Single. Time. :(

But, not wanting to turn this into a 'necrons op' thread. The game was genuinely enjoyable (Sans the Warboss suicide with the Stikk). Just posting this a show of: Necrons ain't nobody's fool.

What genuinely scares me is wraiths. They will get into close combat with you whether you want it or not, and they will wreck anything that isn't absolutely tanky and melee oriented. I haven't faced them yet since the new edition, but apparently wraiths are even worse now since I can't ID them with fists.

 kingbobbito wrote:
What genuinely scares me is wraiths. They will get into close combat with you whether you want it or not, and they will wreck anything that isn't absolutely tanky and melee oriented. I haven't faced them yet since the new edition, but apparently wraiths are even worse now since I can't ID them with fists.

I was trying my best to ID them with my Weirdboy but, unless he was wrong (Should have checked), he still gets his Invul and still gets the RP save from the detachment, which I feel is outright bs. Even with S10 Nobs (due to Hammerhand and PKs), I just COULDN'T cut through them. And there were ONLY 3!

Melevolence wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
What genuinely scares me is wraiths. They will get into close combat with you whether you want it or not, and they will wreck anything that isn't absolutely tanky and melee oriented. I haven't faced them yet since the new edition, but apparently wraiths are even worse now since I can't ID them with fists.

I was trying my best to ID them with my Weirdboy but, unless he was wrong (Should have checked), he still gets his Invul and still gets the RP save from the detachment, which I feel is outright bs. Even with S10 Nobs (due to Hammerhand and PKs), I just COULDN'T cut through them. And there were ONLY 3!

Yeah, they do get their invulns against anything short of strength D, and IIRC they still get the RP but the roll is at -1 for ID? So instead of 5 (is that what they have now?) it'd be a 6+ they need.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
What genuinely scares me is wraiths. They will get into close combat with you whether you want it or not, and they will wreck anything that isn't absolutely tanky and melee oriented. I haven't faced them yet since the new edition, but apparently wraiths are even worse now since I can't ID them with fists.

I was trying my best to ID them with my Weirdboy but, unless he was wrong (Should have checked), he still gets his Invul and still gets the RP save from the detachment, which I feel is outright bs. Even with S10 Nobs (due to Hammerhand and PKs), I just COULDN'T cut through them. And there were ONLY 3!

Yeah, they do get their invulns against anything short of strength D, and IIRC they still get the RP but the roll is at -1 for ID? So instead of 5 (is that what they have now?) it'd be a 6+ they need.

I think he was somehow giving them a 4+ protocol, but I thought that buff was for a different set of units? i could be mistaken. No idea. I haven't yet had a chance to sit down and read through their codex D:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Yeah it's pretty unfortunate about the new rp. U less you up against an actually nice fellow, playing against crons sucks. Our only cron player only owns the old codex so we make him go by the old rules. Wiping out squads for no rp for the win

So you're entire community is "that guy" and won't let him pay his updated rules? Get over yourselves and let the guy play his army the way the rules say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nothing bothers me more than forcing someone to play a different way because someone else can't figure out how to play against it.

NauticalKendall wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Yeah it's pretty unfortunate about the new rp. U less you up against an actually nice fellow, playing against crons sucks. Our only cron player only owns the old codex so we make him go by the old rules. Wiping out squads for no rp for the win

So you're entire community is "that guy" and won't let him pay his updated rules? Get over yourselves and let the guy play his army the way the rules say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nothing bothers me more than forcing someone to play a different way because someone else can't figure out how to play against it.

In his defense, he said the Cron guy ONLY HAS the old rules, which means he HAS to play by the old book...since he doesn't own the new one yet. D:

We faced 5 wraith the other day. They had reanimation and their invulnerable saves etc.

It took 11 Harlequins, 1 troupe master, 1 Shadowseer, 1 solitaire, 3 Skyweaver Jetbikes, 10 wiches, 4 Reaver Jetbikes and 10 kabalite warriors to take them out over 3 turns.

They simply tank so many wounds. We still managed to win but boy it was disheartening. Doing 20-30 hits a turn and only doing a wound here and there is tough.

Not a fan of the wraith any more.

 Swastakowey wrote:
We faced 5 wraith the other day. They had reanimation and their invulnerable saves etc.

It took 11 Harlequins, 1 troupe master, 1 Shadowseer, 1 solitaire, 3 Skyweaver Jetbikes, 10 wiches, 4 Reaver Jetbikes and 10 kabalite warriors to take them out over 3 turns.

They simply tank so many wounds. We still managed to win but boy it was disheartening. Doing 20-30 hits a turn and only doing a wound here and there is tough.

Not a fan of the wraith any more.

That's basically what I was dealing with. Even with WS5 and S5 due to Lucky Stikk and Hammerhand, I just couldn't seem to kill them. Power Klaws and Force Weapon just plinking off like nothing happened. It's insanity. But it's even more frustrating when you pummel the Warriors with dozens and dozens of attacks, and their BASIC TROOPS won't go down at all. D: Not to mention the fricken REROLLS on Necron units. Rerolls to hits, reroll the RPs, D: My poor Boyz just couldn't keep up with it all.

Melevolence wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
What genuinely scares me is wraiths. They will get into close combat with you whether you want it or not, and they will wreck anything that isn't absolutely tanky and melee oriented. I haven't faced them yet since the new edition, but apparently wraiths are even worse now since I can't ID them with fists.

I was trying my best to ID them with my Weirdboy but, unless he was wrong (Should have checked), he still gets his Invul and still gets the RP save from the detachment, which I feel is outright bs. Even with S10 Nobs (due to Hammerhand and PKs), I just COULDN'T cut through them. And there were ONLY 3!

He might not have been playing that right. While Instant Death no longer negates RP it does apply a -1 penalty. The roll is normally 5+ and I didn't see anything in the list that would give him a bonus so any Instant Death wounds that got past the invulnerable save would only have a 6+ RP to get past. That's still a save but it'd be weird for it to pass very often. And of course that formation no longer has access to RP at all after you've killed the Scarab.

 Raxmei wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
What genuinely scares me is wraiths. They will get into close combat with you whether you want it or not, and they will wreck anything that isn't absolutely tanky and melee oriented. I haven't faced them yet since the new edition, but apparently wraiths are even worse now since I can't ID them with fists.

I was trying my best to ID them with my Weirdboy but, unless he was wrong (Should have checked), he still gets his Invul and still gets the RP save from the detachment, which I feel is outright bs. Even with S10 Nobs (due to Hammerhand and PKs), I just COULDN'T cut through them. And there were ONLY 3!

He might not have been playing that right. While Instant Death no longer negates RP it does apply a -1 penalty. The roll is normally 5+ and I didn't see anything in the list that would give him a bonus so any Instant Death wounds that got past the invulnerable save would only have a 6+ RP to get past. That's still a save but it'd be weird for it to pass very often. And of course that formation no longer has access to RP at all after you've killed the Scarab.

If the Wraith/Spyder/Scarab formation is part of a Decurion Detachment they get 4+ RP from the Spyder.

 Raxmei wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
What genuinely scares me is wraiths. They will get into close combat with you whether you want it or not, and they will wreck anything that isn't absolutely tanky and melee oriented. I haven't faced them yet since the new edition, but apparently wraiths are even worse now since I can't ID them with fists.

I was trying my best to ID them with my Weirdboy but, unless he was wrong (Should have checked), he still gets his Invul and still gets the RP save from the detachment, which I feel is outright bs. Even with S10 Nobs (due to Hammerhand and PKs), I just COULDN'T cut through them. And there were ONLY 3!

He might not have been playing that right. While Instant Death no longer negates RP it does apply a -1 penalty. The roll is normally 5+ and I didn't see anything in the list that would give him a bonus so any Instant Death wounds that got past the invulnerable save would only have a 6+ RP to get past. That's still a save but it'd be weird for it to pass very often. And of course that formation no longer has access to RP at all after you've killed the Scarab.

I think he said he had a 4+ RP on them, but I wasn't sure that was right. So with ID, he still had a 5+ and still gets the 3+ invul they have before hand. I managed to kill the Spyder with one of the Deff Dreads, but not until about turn 3. A turn too late, really.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Raxmei wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
What genuinely scares me is wraiths. They will get into close combat with you whether you want it or not, and they will wreck anything that isn't absolutely tanky and melee oriented. I haven't faced them yet since the new edition, but apparently wraiths are even worse now since I can't ID them with fists.

I was trying my best to ID them with my Weirdboy but, unless he was wrong (Should have checked), he still gets his Invul and still gets the RP save from the detachment, which I feel is outright bs. Even with S10 Nobs (due to Hammerhand and PKs), I just COULDN'T cut through them. And there were ONLY 3!

He might not have been playing that right. While Instant Death no longer negates RP it does apply a -1 penalty. The roll is normally 5+ and I didn't see anything in the list that would give him a bonus so any Instant Death wounds that got past the invulnerable save would only have a 6+ RP to get past. That's still a save but it'd be weird for it to pass very often. And of course that formation no longer has access to RP at all after you've killed the Scarab.

If the Wraith/Spyder/Scarab formation is part of a Decurion Detachment they get 4+ RP from the Spyder.

Yeah, I didn't notice the Tomb Blades. With that and everything else either the Necron player was using a Decurion or he's criminally insane.

 Swastakowey wrote:
We faced 5 wraith the other day. They had reanimation and their invulnerable saves etc.

It took 11 Harlequins, 1 troupe master, 1 Shadowseer, 1 solitaire, 3 Skyweaver Jetbikes, 10 wiches, 4 Reaver Jetbikes and 10 kabalite warriors to take them out over 3 turns.

They simply tank so many wounds. We still managed to win but boy it was disheartening. Doing 20-30 hits a turn and only doing a wound here and there is tough.

Not a fan of the wraith any more.

Yeah, effectively there's little, of anything, that's of similar value that can even come close to matching them for the same points investment save for some shennanigans with demons and relics. Really, the things are just way too hard to kill, on top of being incredibly fast, and are super killy to boot.

A major failure of game design there.

Melevolence wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Yeah it's pretty unfortunate about the new rp. U less you up against an actually nice fellow, playing against crons sucks. Our only cron player only owns the old codex so we make him go by the old rules. Wiping out squads for no rp for the win

So you're entire community is "that guy" and won't let him pay his updated rules? Get over yourselves and let the guy play his army the way the rules say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nothing bothers me more than forcing someone to play a different way because someone else can't figure out how to play against it.

In his defense, he said the Cron guy ONLY HAS the old rules, which means he HAS to play by the old book...since he doesn't own the new one yet. D:

Exalted. If you're going to insult me read my whole post. I will not let him use rules he does not own or has not paid for. Sorry but it won't happen.

Melee is back in 40K and I am jut really pleased by that. the shooting is king days are not entirely gone but they are mostly gone.

melee never went away. It's just certain forms of it did.

All through the end of 5th, through 6th, and 7th, we saw armies with assault components or assault builds do reasonably well. TWC's, Wraiths, Bikers, etc.

the units that really had the problem, stuff like mechanized MEQ's and footslogging tides, still have problems and they're not any closer to coming back than they were two years ago.

 Jancoran wrote:
Melee is back in 40K and I am jut really pleased by that. the shooting is king days are not entirely gone but they are mostly gone.

Melee isn't "back in 40k", it's good for a single Necron unit. As you saw, orks, the most stabby army in the game, can't do against wraiths. No one can do against wraiths. You either have strength D weapons or you put 100 shots into them and hope they fail rolls. The riptide that everyone complains about? Wraiths are more durable than it, when you factor in RP.

They will almost hands down beat any other melee unit of equal points. Termies? Not a chance. Even with TH/SS you're inferior, and cost more. TWC? Slightly better chance because you can get S10, but having a thunder hammer makes you cost almost twice as much. And they will hands down wreck any type of assault marines or vanguard vets, 2 or 3 dead marines, vs 1 wound taken off a wraith. That will reanimate 50% of the time if we kill it.

I'm not overly familiar with the eldar, but given the fact that the imperium can't do anything against them I doubt they have any melee units that can deal with T5 3++ any easier.

I would personally have enjoyed watching a green tide teleport itself with Gate of Infinity.

I don't really know how this is a problem... My berzerkers keep em down really nice, just played a 1500 point game where I only lost 5 berzerkers and I tabled my necron opponent. Especially because you are an ork player I thought your ability to drown him in attacks would cancel out a 4+ save... Huh guess I haven't played against to many necrons...

You haven't faced flayed ones yet. You desperately need ranged support like lobbas and kmk to have a chance against wraiths + flayed ones combo. They're dead choppy.

I just didn't fight them he had them on the table though... I tied them up with cultists for 1 turn and that let my berzerkers kill everything else by turn 3 then all he had was 2 obelisks and a unit of flayed ones so I just got back in my LR and ran around the map. Also I don't play Orks so... ya...

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
I don't really know how this is a problem... My berzerkers keep em down really nice, just played a 1500 point game where I only lost 5 berzerkers and I tabled my necron opponent. Especially because you are an ork player I thought your ability to drown him in attacks would cancel out a 4+ save... Huh guess I haven't played against to many necrons...

3++ save, followed by another 4+ RP. So not as easy as "cancelling out a 4+"

6 berzerkers equals 3 wraiths with whip coils. You get what, 3 attacks? Furious charge and counter attack, right? 3 wraiths, that can move farther than you and phase through terrain are more likely to charge you than you are to charge them.

So they charge, hit first (I 5), they should get 1 rend and you should also fail 1 armor save. Two dead berzerkers. You hit back, 16 attacks, they take 1 wound after their invuln, still get RP. Statistically better than an equal value of berzerkers.

So sure, you might roll well and kill more than that, but after a few games it'll be clear that wraiths kill berzerkers. Again, they kill any equally priced melee focused unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
You haven't faced flayed ones yet. You desperately need ranged support like lobbas and kmk to have a chance against wraiths + flayed ones combo. They're dead choppy.

I've never gone against flayed ones, are they that scary? The fact that they have armor 4 makes them sound a bit less frightening, what do they get, warrior stats but 2-3 attacks? I tend to have a lot to deal with armor 4, from heavy bolters to deathwing knights.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You haven't faced flayed ones yet. You desperately need ranged support like lobbas and kmk to have a chance against wraiths + flayed ones combo. They're dead choppy.

I've never gone against flayed ones, are they that scary? The fact that they have armor 4 makes them sound a bit less frightening, what do they get, warrior stats but 2-3 attacks? I tend to have a lot to deal with armor 4, from heavy bolters to deathwing knights.

They get 3 base attacks, shred, fear, ap5, 4+ followed by RP (4+++ with decursion or potentially 4+++ with rerolls), infiltrate, deep strike. And they cost...10 ppm(?) or something like this.

Necron player ties you up with wraiths and than charges with a pack of flayed ones. If you can't significantly shrink their numbers before they get into mellee with you, expect A LOT of casualties. Statistically, if, say, 15 flayed ones get to strike on the charge, that's 22.5 ap5 wounds (15 after fnp). And don't expect to kill much in return.

Khorne Berzerkers have 4 attacks on the charge and 3 on defense and... I'm pretty sure flayed ones have a 4+ armor save... Because if flayed ones had a 3+ armor save followed by a 4+ rp sounds obscenely broken and if this isn't true and they have a 4+ armor save my berzerkers would have no trouble using chain axes to slice through them. Also, kingbobbito sorry I didn't accurately read the top post, in the game I played he didn't use wraiths only flayed ones srry mistakes were made :(. I was only commenting on the flayed ones in that post :[. And yes kingbobbito I really don't understand how to kill wraiths (by the statistics you gave us) with a melee army. Well... Possibly you could tie them up with a weak unit (in my case cultists) then send in your strong unit (in my case berzerkers) to kill the flayed ones... I just don't know if I could kill the flayed ones fast enough for as in my post I stated that I didn't fight them I just ran around them, but if you could you may be able to kill the flayed ones and the wraiths.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Khorne Berzerkers have 4 attacks on the charge and 3 on defense and... I'm pretty sure flayed ones have a 4+ armor save... Because a 3+ armor save followed by a 4+ rp sounds obscenely broken and if this isn't true and they have a 4+ armor save my berzerkers would have no trouble using chain axes to slice through them. Also, kingbobbito sorry I didn't accurately read the top post, in the game I played he didn't use wraiths only flayed ones srry mistakes were made :(. I was only commenting on the flayed ones in that post :[. And yes kingbobbito I really don't understand how to kill wraiths (by the statistics you gave us) with a melee army. Well... Possibly you could tie them up with a weak unit (in my case cultists) then send in your strong unit (in my case berzerkers) to kill the flayed ones... I just don't know if I could kill the flayed ones fast enough for as in my post I stated that I didn't fight them I just ran around them.

Flayed ones can get swept - use it for your advantage. Positioning is very important. If you can perform a bottle neck charge on a spread out squad - consider it done. Not that it's so easy to pull off but it's possible.

Remember! You can't charge off of a deep strike so use that to your advantage! If you charge in win a combat then sweep them (albeit it is a pretty small chance for them to fail... Depends on how many kills you get).

 koooaei wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You haven't faced flayed ones yet. You desperately need ranged support like lobbas and kmk to have a chance against wraiths + flayed ones combo. They're dead choppy.

I've never gone against flayed ones, are they that scary? The fact that they have armor 4 makes them sound a bit less frightening, what do they get, warrior stats but 2-3 attacks? I tend to have a lot to deal with armor 4, from heavy bolters to deathwing knights.

They get 3 base attacks, shred, fear, ap5, 4+ followed by RP (4+++ with decursion or potentially 4+++ with rerolls), infiltrate, deep strike. And they cost...10 ppm(?) or something like this.

Necron player ties you up with wraiths and than charges with a pack of flayed ones. If you can't significantly shrink their numbers before they get into mellee with you, expect A LOT of casualties. Statistically, if, say, 15 flayed ones get to strike on the charge, that's 15 ap5 wounds after fnp. And don't expect to kill much in return.

Woof, the infiltrate and deep strike I did not know about. Something that seems like a semi-sturdy target becomes a lot more worrisome when it can start a lot close to you than their deployment zone.

And the fact that they'll get 5 attacks on the charge seems rather unpleasant. So... 18 vs 5 DW knights (one of my best melee units)... I'll kill ~3, then they'll make 75 attacks against me.

EDIT: looked it up, they're 13 ppm