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 kingbobbito wrote:
Hmmm, are you counting that the wraiths get RP on a 4+? Even if you score 12 wounds you're only getting 2 wounds through, where is that 3.05 coming from?

They dont have Reanimation Protocols. The only way they can get it is from their Spyder in the Harvest, but he didn't have that.

If he did, it would be tougher, but then I'd have just killed the Spyder first. Problem solved. Hehehehe.

 Jancoran wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Hmmm, are you counting that the wraiths get RP on a 4+? Even if you score 12 wounds you're only getting 2 wounds through, where is that 3.05 coming from?

They dont have Reanimation Protocols. The only way they can get it is from their Spyder in the Harvest, but he didn't have that.

If he did, it would be tougher, but then I'd have just killed the Spyder first. Problem solved. Hehehehe.

Kill the Spyder first they said. It'll be easy, they said.

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

4 attacks on the charge, i believe. Yep, 13 ppm - corrected me. Yet, it's worth it for what they get.

3 attacks base, and they're dual wielding. So 5 on the charge. Put a Destroyer Lord with them and watch the world burn.

Wut. Is there any reasoning behind three attacks base or is this just the author randomly choosing? There are a lot of CC dedicated units that deserve to have just as many (cough... Khorne Berzerkers.. cough) attacks. Is this perhaps a change to CC related units for the future?

Oh, it's easy. That's cause crons are

 koooaei wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

4 attacks on the charge, i believe. Yep, 13 ppm - corrected me. Yet, it's worth it for what they get.

3 attacks base, and they're dual wielding. So 5 on the charge. Put a Destroyer Lord with them and watch the world burn.

Wut. Is there any reasoning behind three attacks base or is this just the author randomly choosing? There are a lot of CC dedicated units that deserve to have just as many (cough... Khorne Berzerkers.. cough) attacks. Is this perhaps a change to CC related units for the future?

Oh, it's easy. That's cause crons are

>=/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flayed Ones were like that in the last codex. They literally changed their Special rule, which the whole codex benefits from, and gave them an actual melee weapon. Thats it.

 krodarklorr wrote:
It's probably the fact that they have absolutely no shooting option, and are WS4, I2. Khorne Berserkers have better CC special rules and better WS, and Boyz have shooting attacks and are dirt cheap compared to a Flayed One.

You mean those bolt pistols on the berzerkers? I forgot how much value that adds to the unit. Berzerkers have some good rules, a higher initiative, and a higher weapon skill but they pay for it and have a single base attack. 13 ppm vs 19 ppm. The point I'm trying to make is that Flayed Ones get 3 base attacks while Khorne Berzerkers get 1 because...?

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It's probably the fact that they have absolutely no shooting option, and are WS4, I2. Khorne Berserkers have better CC special rules and better WS, and Boyz have shooting attacks and are dirt cheap compared to a Flayed One.

You mean those bolt pistols on the berzerkers? I forgot how much value that adds to the unit. Berzerkers have some good rules, a higher initiative, and a higher weapon skill but they pay for it and have a single base attack. 13 ppm vs 19 ppm. The point I'm trying to make is that Flayed Ones get 3 base attacks while Khorne Berzerkers get 1 because...?

Well, this is also comparing two different codexes, one of which GW apparently hates. Again, why do Warp Talons have 1 attack base? Yet Chosen have two? And why no Legion tactics? And why is all of their stuff so expensive? Overall the codex needs a buff in more ways than one.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It's probably the fact that they have absolutely no shooting option, and are WS4, I2. Khorne Berserkers have better CC special rules and better WS, and Boyz have shooting attacks and are dirt cheap compared to a Flayed One.

You mean those bolt pistols on the berzerkers? I forgot how much value that adds to the unit. Berzerkers have some good rules, a higher initiative, and a higher weapon skill but they pay for it and have a single base attack. 13 ppm vs 19 ppm. The point I'm trying to make is that Flayed Ones get 3 base attacks while Khorne Berzerkers get 1 because...?

Well, this is also comparing two different codexes, one of which GW apparently hates. Again, why do Warp Talons have 1 attack base? Yet Chosen have two? And why no Legion tactics? And why is all of their stuff so expensive? Overall the codex needs a buff in more ways than one.

Couldn't agree more. I'll just leave the discussion as:

1) Chaos needs a little bit of re thinking
2) Flayed Ones get 3 attacks base because reasons

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It's probably the fact that they have absolutely no shooting option, and are WS4, I2. Khorne Berserkers have better CC special rules and better WS, and Boyz have shooting attacks and are dirt cheap compared to a Flayed One.

You mean those bolt pistols on the berzerkers? I forgot how much value that adds to the unit. Berzerkers have some good rules, a higher initiative, and a higher weapon skill but they pay for it and have a single base attack. 13 ppm vs 19 ppm. The point I'm trying to make is that Flayed Ones get 3 base attacks while Khorne Berzerkers get 1 because...?

Well, this is also comparing two different codexes, one of which GW apparently hates. Again, why do Warp Talons have 1 attack base? Yet Chosen have two? And why no Legion tactics? And why is all of their stuff so expensive? Overall the codex needs a buff in more ways than one.

Couldn't agree more. I'll just leave the discussion as:

1) Chaos needs a little bit of re thinking
2) Flayed Ones get 3 attacks base because reasons

Again, Flayed Ones had 3 attacks base in the previous codex, but no one complained then. =P

Flayed ones have 3 attacks base because they had 3 attacks base in the previous codex because reasons.

Noone complained cause they were infinitely easier to remove and didn't have shred which makes them technically between s5 and s6.

I think the issue with the CSM comparisons is that they did things like reduce Berzerkers to 1A base and sillyness like that.

Likewise, with Shred, they've increased their wound output by 50%, with their wound put against MEQ's (just for comparison's sake), roughly matching something with 8 S4 WS4 attacks. Both on a charge and after, they exceed the killing output of Khorne Berzerkers, on top of being more resilient against anything but specifically AP4 weapons.

The boost in resiliency and the addition of Shred have made them incredibly potent, putting many other dedicated CC units, that often cost way more, to shame.

 Vaktathi wrote:


The boost in resiliency and the addition of Shred have made them incredibly potent, putting many other dedicated CC units, that often cost way more, to shame.

I mean, I've already thought about this. Flayed Ones are ridiculous, compared point for point against any other CC unit in the game. But, they still have their downsides. Like, having to DS or Infiltrate to get there, and only being WS4 I2.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


The boost in resiliency and the addition of Shred have made them incredibly potent, putting many other dedicated CC units, that often cost way more, to shame.

I mean, I've already thought about this. Flayed Ones are ridiculous, compared point for point against any other CC unit in the game. But, they still have their downsides. Like, having to DS or Infiltrate to get there, and only being WS4 I2.

Having the ability to Deep Strike or Infiltrate is a downside?

I know that I've taken the 190 point Cypher for the sole purpose of Infiltrating some Berzerkers so they don't have to footslog it across the board. Deep Strike particularly on melee units is great. It pretty much guarantees they will only be on the board one turn before they can assault something. I'd kill for that dependability.

Unfortunately most similar CC units have limited enagment methods these days. The only real viable delivery method Berzerkers for examples have is a Land Raider, and they just don't pack enough to justify that investment

:(

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Hmmm, are you counting that the wraiths get RP on a 4+? Even if you score 12 wounds you're only getting 2 wounds through, where is that 3.05 coming from?

They dont have Reanimation Protocols. The only way they can get it is from their Spyder in the Harvest, but he didn't have that.

If he did, it would be tougher, but then I'd have just killed the Spyder first. Problem solved. Hehehehe.

Kill the Spyder first they said. It'll be easy, they said.

Ive done it twice, round one. it REALLY is only three wounds. In the first game i ganked it with Stealthsuits and jumped away. Turn one, no Reanimations. In the second game i faced it in, it was killed by what I will admit was a nice bit of luck, it took an Instant Death shot to the face from a D-Cannon and failed Reanimation after moving and running up towards me to push the field. I'm sure in future games he'll trail some dudes behind him but I'll take it.

I'm not here to talk you off the ledge really. I own Necrons and I play against them. Moping about Wraiths is hardly productive and not everyone is taking them in the Harvest Formation nor in the Decurion. So there's that. I have yet to NEED the Decurion. The loss of Objective Secured turns me off a little to the Decurion despite its benefits and the Harvest makes you beg the question of how small you really want your scarab groups in order to take the Harvest within a Decurion. Easy first blood, easy kill points and in Scouring its worse.

I love the Harvest. I REALLY do. It's going to wreck some faces and why shouldnt it? what fun is it if you havent got any fun toys to play with. It'll kill its share and if you're not ready for it well... Start getting ready for it. it's here for a bit.

 Ignatius wrote:

I know that I've taken the 190 point Cypher for the sole purpose of Infiltrating some Berzerkers so they don't have to footslog it across the board.

Unfortunately, you can't do it. You need both the unit and indep to have infiltrate. Means you also need Huron or Ahriman or get lucky and get d3 infiltrating units of na random warlord trait table.

 Jancoran wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Hmmm, are you counting that the wraiths get RP on a 4+? Even if you score 12 wounds you're only getting 2 wounds through, where is that 3.05 coming from?

They dont have Reanimation Protocols. The only way they can get it is from their Spyder in the Harvest, but he didn't have that.

If he did, it would be tougher, but then I'd have just killed the Spyder first. Problem solved. Hehehehe.

Kill the Spyder first they said. It'll be easy, they said.

Ive done it twice, round one. it REALLY is only three wounds.

Yes, on a T6 3+sv MC that's often relatively easy to hide. Being able to put it down, while dealing with other, particularly ranged threats, and the Wraiths, often isn't something many armies can do. On average, if you're having to reach out across the board to put down the Spyder early, that's going to mean heavy weapons. With something like Krak MIssiles or Lascannons, assuming BS4, you're gonna need an average of 6 shots to do the job, that's usually at least two units worth of firepower, often more, and that's assuming no cover and perfect LoS, or fourteen BS3 Autocannon's wroth of fire.

3 Wounds may not seem like much when you just look at it that way, but then, by the same logic, a Wave Serpent is just 3 HP's. There's a lot more to it than just that.

Assuming a full stealth team, with two fusion blasters and four Burst Cannons, has infiltrated and is within range of the Spyder, on average, assuming no cover saves and no markerlight support, that 190pt unit is putting an average of 1.72 wounds on that 50pt MC and will typically need two such squads (nearly 400pts) to kill it off in one round, and you're likely to lose that Stealth teams immediately afterwards being in that sort of danger range.

It happened. what can I say. If you want answers that are more complicated than :"kill the Spyder" I'd ask you why you're looking for complication where there is none.

Adjust your thinking and make saure you DO have a way to reach out and touch that Spyder. Or dont and allow them to prosper.

 koooaei wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

I know that I've taken the 190 point Cypher for the sole purpose of Infiltrating some Berzerkers so they don't have to footslog it across the board.

Unfortunately, you can't do it. You need both the unit and indep to have infiltrate. Means you also need Huron or Ahriman or get lucky and get d3 infiltrating units of na random warlord trait table.

Correct. That was back when Cypher first came out and I rushed to use him and threw cation to the wind. Anyways I was more trying to illustrate the point that I would be willing to pay large amounts for the Infiltrate ability.

 Jancoran wrote:
It happened. what can I say. If you want answers that are more complicated than :"kill the Spyder" I'd ask you why you're looking for complication where there is none.

Adjust your thinking and make saure you DO have a way to reach out and touch that Spyder. Or dont and allow them to prosper.

Nobody is saying it *can't* happen, only that it's going to be much more difficult than you make it out to be in the vast majority of games, and that those instances occurred due to some excellent rolling. Most of the time, it won't be that easy.

Yes, it's a good idea to go for the spider first, but it's not "just" three wounds that can be knocked out straight-away like it ain't not thang.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Hmmm, are you counting that the wraiths get RP on a 4+? Even if you score 12 wounds you're only getting 2 wounds through, where is that 3.05 coming from?

They dont have Reanimation Protocols. The only way they can get it is from their Spyder in the Harvest, but he didn't have that.

If he did, it would be tougher, but then I'd have just killed the Spyder first. Problem solved. Hehehehe.

Kill the Spyder first they said. It'll be easy, they said.

Killing the Spyder honestly wasn't hard. My Deff Dread made short work of it on Turn 2. I had more trouble getting through the 3++. It was pretty rare they got the RP. The only time they got it was the turn the Spyder died, so they had one last round of it, but it only made an appearance once. Anecdotal, but yeah. Spyders die pretty quick to 4 PK attacks.

A full squad of flayed ones on the charge kills statisically 37.5 ork boyz. Awesome, huh?

Alcibiades wrote:
A full squad of flayed ones on the charge kills statisically 37.5 ork boyz. Awesome, huh?

Correction, they statistically WOUND 37.5 Ork Boyz, unless you already factored in the FNP or potential armor if they are attacking an Ard Squad. Though I can say as of my two games against Flayed Ones, they never came close to kill that many Boyz in one go. :p sounds nice on paper, but not so much when you're tossing dice who refuse to give you those statistics :p

Melevolence wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A full squad of flayed ones on the charge kills statisically 37.5 ork boyz. Awesome, huh?

Correction, they statistically WOUND 37.5 Ork Boyz, unless you already factored in the FNP or potential armor if they are attacking an Ard Squad. Though I can say as of my two games against Flayed Ones, they never came close to kill that many Boyz in one go. :p sounds nice on paper, but not so much when you're tossing dice who refuse to give you those statistics :p

Agreed. And who cares if boys die? If they keep those flayed one's busy from attacking what I need they won.

Melevolence wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A full squad of flayed ones on the charge kills statisically 37.5 ork boyz. Awesome, huh?

Correction, they statistically WOUND 37.5 Ork Boyz, unless you already factored in the FNP or potential armor if they are attacking an Ard Squad. Though I can say as of my two games against Flayed Ones, they never came close to kill that many Boyz in one go. :p sounds nice on paper, but not so much when you're tossing dice who refuse to give you those statistics :p

In which case ('Eavy Armour + FnP) they will statistically kill about 12 Ork Boyz on the charge.

They kill 59 Guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They overdid Flayed Ones I think. 1 Flayer Claw would have been enough.

Alcibiades wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A full squad of flayed ones on the charge kills statisically 37.5 ork boyz. Awesome, huh?

Correction, they statistically WOUND 37.5 Ork Boyz, unless you already factored in the FNP or potential armor if they are attacking an Ard Squad. Though I can say as of my two games against Flayed Ones, they never came close to kill that many Boyz in one go. :p sounds nice on paper, but not so much when you're tossing dice who refuse to give you those statistics :p

In which case ('Eavy Armour + FnP) they will statistically kill about 12 Ork Boyz on the charge.

They kill 59 Guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They overdid Flayed Ones I think. 1 Flayer Claw would have been enough.

I mean, it makes them scary, and GW sells more models. I think it's perfectly fine.

It's great if you can get all of them engaged in combat on the charge.
In practise, however, that never happens.

If I could get a 50 point 3 wound TMC, I would run twelve


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Squads

 grendel083 wrote:
It's great if you can get all of them engaged in combat on the charge.
In practise, however, that never happens.

Sure. These absurdly high numbers that you get with Flayed Ones are hilarious however.

65 Gretchen!