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And once again about high rate of fire => pinning. Heavy bolters are ~the same rof like big shootas, shuricannons, heavy stubbers. Basically, any weapon with 3 or more shots has high RoF.

It's gona be easier to create a special rule called Not Pinning.

Doesn't ATSKNF make you immune to pinning anyway?

Heavy Bolters saw a lot of use in Sisters armies when they were 5 ppm, but only on Retributors, where they could gain Rending. Nobody else could afford to sacrifice their mobility for them.

So maybe heavy bolters could be fixed with an upgrade available to power armoured models that gives them Relentless but reduces their weapons' range by 6"? Call it Suspensors, maybe.

Another idea drawing from rules already in the 40k universe:

Some sort of upgrade to Shrapnel Rounds as used by the Iron Warriors in HH rules. Basically drops the AP to 5, but gives them rending.

I would be fine with any army spamming heavy bolters on vehicles, specifically the DA player who said he would bring enough speeders for 40-50 Heavy bolter shots.

Land speeder runs into Lootas in a Battlewagon. Lootas fire 10-30 S7 shots and poof no more speeder, rinse and repeat. :-p

They are super overpriced as sponsons on the LRBT and friends.

20pts for 2x Heavy Bolters, especially when your main gun is often ordnance? Price them at 5pts, along with the Heavy Flamer, and you might start seeing a lot more of them.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Riddle me this one batman, Tau Carbine .....A Carbine is a cross between a Rifle and a Pistol so how the hell do they have such firepower/pinning?

Fluff-wise, the Tau Pulse Carbine has an underslung grenade launcher that fires photon grenades. Apparently the amazing light show from said photon grenades makes people curl up/go blind/stare at the pretty lights.

Realistically speaking, it's entirely possible that photon grenades are primarily optical-spectrum, but also include some kind of concussion effect as well. Neither will be particularly dangerous to a Space Marine in PA, of course. But it's probably enough to slow down the Marines by, optimistically speaking, about 10 seconds.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Doesn't ATSKNF make you immune to pinning anyway?

Heavy Bolters saw a lot of use in Sisters armies when they were 5 ppm, but only on Retributors, where they could gain Rending. Nobody else could afford to sacrifice their mobility for them.

So maybe heavy bolters could be fixed with an upgrade available to power armoured models that gives them Relentless but reduces their weapons' range by 6"? Call it Suspensors, maybe.

I don't know offhand if ATSKNF confers immunity to pinning. Might have to look that up. In any case, I'd say that PA-equipped models should actually get Salvo HBs, rather than Relentless with 30" range instead of 36". IMO it much more cleanly interfaces with the rules, and introduces less extra stuff.

So, I'd say that the following changes would be good:

Heavy Bolter:
36" Salvo 2/3 S5 AP4 [PA-equipped models, IE Marines/Sisters]
36" Heavy 3 S5 AP4 [IG variant]

All Heavy Bolters are 5 points per weapon, so HB sponsons on a Russ/Pred would now cost 10 points (2x HB @5pts each).

For those curious about why the Guard gets stuck with Heavy 3 HBs, it's because it requires two Guardsmen and a tripod to deploy a HB. In contrast, a single Marine/Sister can carry and fire a HB- and Marines don't even need power armor!

Giving AM less mobile but cheaper Heavy Bolters fits with the faction's character, which is a nice touch. Salvo on the expensive manuever units (BSS and Tac squads), Heavy on the cheaper but fragile fire support units (AM HWTs).

Whiskey144 wrote:
All Heavy Bolters are 5 points per weapon, so HB sponsons on a Russ/Pred would now cost 10 points (2x HB @5pts each).

One thing to note. On a Demolisher or LRBT, the HB sponsons and Ordnance main cannon work against each other, so you get far less effectiveness for your points spent. How many points are worth sacrificing for 1x S5 AP4 hit? In the first case, 5pts is about right, it ends up being about as effective as a pintle mount.

Meanwhile, Punisher Pask gets 6x shots at BS4, Rerollable, reroll AV penetration, at the same strength. That's a steal at 20pts, much less 10pts!

That's the problem with universal pricing -- it's still not universal value.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Doesn't ATSKNF make you immune to pinning anyway?

Just looked it up. ATSKNF doesn't have any play into Pinning.

Pinning is an effective mechanic vs. marines in general. Forcing them to go to ground when they're likely better off using their armor saves is beneficial.

Make the HB a 36" S5 AP4 Salvo 3/4 weapon. Then change Guard heavy weapon teams into pocket artillery- T5 2 wound model with a "weapon setup rule" that it may only fire snapshots on the turn it moves.

...How is a Punisher w/ Pask getting re-rolls on the HBs? After all, HB sponsons are two separate weapons, not a single twin-linked mount (which would be dumb anyways, given the how the mounts are designed).

Unless that's factoring in Prescience? In which case, it's going to be incredible difficult to balance anything if we're considering just how far you could combo something.

It's also worth noting that, IMO, Ordnance Russes mostly just got shafted by the change of the Leman Russ to "Heavy". I'm not sure what could be done about LR Demolishers, but the LRBT could be given additional non-Ordnance profiles for its Battle Cannon (at an appropriate price, naturally), which would better represent the great versatility of not only the basic Russ but also the Battle Cannon.

In any case, I don't think that a Salvo 2/3 HB is worth 10 points anyways. It's also worth pointing out that IG HB teams are terrible anyways, since it's pretty easy to bring a few tanks to get some HBs into your list.

Pask has Preferred Enemy as a Warlord trait, so rerolling 1's only. Not exactly like TL, the point is simply the platform affects the weapon.

I do think rebalancing the LR family is worthwhile, alongside the HWTs and undercosted Wyvern. I'm saving up the big points to hit for a compiled cross-codex "balance patch".

I just want heavy bolters to be Salvo 3/5 like grav cannons, which makes them competitive again.

Increase the points up to 20 like a lazcannon and your golden.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Pask has Preferred Enemy as a Warlord trait, so rerolling 1's only. Not exactly like TL, the point is simply the platform affects the weapon.

I do think rebalancing the LR family is worthwhile, alongside the HWTs and undercosted Wyvern. I'm saving up the big points to hit for a compiled cross-codex "balance patch".

I forgot that Pask got PE. Still, I do think that the ubiquity of the HB does require a bit of "universalizing" the costing, since it's on so many things that don't really change how the weapon works; Pask seems a bit like an outlier. Not only that, but BS4 pseudo-PE is available to Codex:SM using Imperial Fists chapter tactics, not to mention Sentinels of Terra getting twin-link bolt weapons at half range. I don't think any of those things would really change the cost of the HB, so I don't really see why Pask would.

Also, with regards to LR viability, I'm personally hoping that GW will eventually allow coaxial weapons on the LRBT and the Vanquisher. The LRBT would mostly be for flavor, truthfully- though the novel Gunheads describes the LRBT as having a coaxial autocannon, so.... The Vanquisher with a coax gun would be markedly better, IMO- particularly considering that even a 36" gun would have a hard time being out of range on a typical 6x4' table.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I just want heavy bolters to be Salvo 3/5 like grav cannons, which makes them competitive again.

Increase the points up to 20 like a lazcannon and your golden.

HBs being Salvo 3/5 doesn't help them though. Part of the problem is that the issue with HBs is that they don't actually have very much to shoot at that they're really good at killing. The other half is that because of how ubiquitous it is something like "Salvo 3/5" could have unimaginably bad ripple effects.

It also still wouldn't be worth 20 points, and TBH I question if a Lascannon is even worth twenty points in the first place, considering the current mechanics. I can definitely see a Lascannon being worth 20 points, if vehicle damage mechanics changed and guns like the Lascannon (IE, S8+/AP2-) became incredibly important for killing said vehicles. But a HB, even at Salvo 3/5, wouldn't be worth 20 points.

Well, if you ever want to see it on a HWT or LRBT, you want to price them as low as possible. Pask is the exception, where his rules and the Gatling main gun give the HB a lot of synergy it otherwise wouldn't have.

I think 3x S5 AP4 is fine, and Salvo is helpful for the AS/SM squads. Costing is what's worthwhile to look at because it kills the HB as a choice -- the HB is not supposed to be a premier weapon, just a solid ubiquitous one.

Cheap, solid, and ubiquitous; so does that mean I can have double the amount of heavy bolters per tactical squad, or that I can double my number of tactical squads by switching to heavy bolters?

Like, say I have five tactical squads, each with a single multi melta or a plasma cannon. If I switch them all to the solid, ubiquitous heavy bolter, does that allow me to have five squads with ten heavy bolters? Does it give me enough points to field ten tactical squads?

No, just like thirty points? And all I get are 15 strength five shots?

Maybe I'll convert just one squad to heavy bolter, for five points. Maybe I can use them to buy one of my sergeants an auspex.

No, it means you could save 25 points, and then shoot 15x S5 AP4 shots at GEQ infantry rather than 5x S8 AP1 Melta shots at tanks. Matching weapons to their target is a good idea.

A more constructive post, might have asked why you can't also take them in the Special Weapons slot on a Tac/BSS squad.

The idea behind calling the HB "ubiquitous" is more to say that almost every Imperial (and many Chaos Marine) unit can, in some way, be equipped with a Heavy Bolter. This is why I dislike anything that changes the RoF of the HB to something like Heavy 4 or Salvo 3/4- that extra shot doesn't seem like much, but it likely has huge (and unintended) consequences due to the substantial increase in volume of fire that that could provide.

Pinning I'm less leery of, if only because it doesn't seem that "all the pinning" is particularly gamebreaking, going by the sheer variety of Eldar weapons with Pinning on them .

Now, as to the distinction between "special" and "heavy" weapons, I think a good way to think of the difference is as follows:

Special weapons can be carried as a rifle-equivalent; only one infantryman is necessary to carry all of the relevant equipment for the weapon to be effectively deployed. Moreover, the weapon does not require any special equipment or requirement to be braced in order to fire at maximum effectiveness.

In contrast, a heavy weapon requires some combination of multiple infantrymen to effectively deploy, and/or a need to be braced, or use specialized equipment to accomplish a similar effect, in order to fire at maximum effectiveness.

As an example, most special weapons are not that much bigger than the "service rifles" carried by a given faction. Heavy weapons, OTOH, are often large, bulky, and sometimes deployed by a multi-person team or on a separate platform of some kind.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Riddle me this one batman, Tau Carbine .....A Carbine is a cross between a Rifle and a Pistol so how the hell do they have such firepower/pinning?

Fluff-wise, the Tau Pulse Carbine has an underslung grenade launcher that fires photon grenades. Apparently the amazing light show from said photon grenades makes people curl up/go blind/stare at the pretty lights.

Ahhh basically a flash bang grenade then. wouldn't really provide pinning in real life but ok thats at least something.

I remember we were doing MOUT town training (urban warfare) and we were clearing a building and threw a Flash bang into a room.....the Coyotes (fake enemies) had tied a "civilian" to a chain in that specific room and the poor bastard got hit with 2 flash bangs. He was sitting, tied to his chair, crying and mewing rocking back and forth. Ahhh memories.

S5 heavy weapons with no special rules just aren't competitive in general. It kind of doesn't matter how many shots you give them. S5 weapons on every troop, on the other hand, is fantastic.

Martel732 wrote:
S5 heavy weapons with no special rules just aren't competitive in general. It kind of doesn't matter how many shots you give them.

Effectiveness aside, it's of the reasons to look at the costing. Right now, Heavy Bolters are the same price as an AC on a older unit like a HWT. On a more recent unit like the Fire Raptor, they are essentially costed at 2:1 (turret HB shots are doubled).

More a sign of codex neglect than anything else IMO. You see the same problems with the Wyvern versus the mortar HWT. The older units aren't costed competitively, or they're lacking special rules (IC, Shred in this case) which allow them to keep up.

wouldnt be to hard to invent some fluff about how they found a new STC for HB's that give it a special rule.

The problem with increasing the HB's RoF to 5 is that it will then outshine the Autocannon vs. most MCs and be better or almost the same vs. light vehicles.

.Vs. Carnifex

1/3 x 1//3 = 1/9 x 5 = 5/9

2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9 x 2 = 4/9

Vs. Rhino

1/6 x 5 = 5/6

1/2 x 2 = 1

Vs. Raider

1/3 x 5 = 1 2/3

2/3 x 2 = 1 1/3

Thus, since the Lascannon is superior against AV13+ and T7+, the autocannon will become a niche weapon against AV12. A very niche weapon.

The way that the game mechanics work do not give much leeway for adjusting the HBs' stats.

I said ROF to 4 not 5 :-P but meh, the biggest problem I see to upgrading the HB is that it will start stepping on the assault cannons niche.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I said ROF to 4 not 5 :-P but meh, the biggest problem I see to upgrading the HB is that it will start stepping on the assault cannons niche.

The assault cannon has a non-niche in my view. It's another poor heavy weapon, so it's not benchmark either. That being said, I don't see a good change without changing off the D6 system.

Going to a 3+ save for vehicle armour would be interesting. S6/S7 lose 67% of their effectiveness against AV. In response, players need more S8 AP3+ to compensate. And these weapons being low RoF, aren't nearly so dangerous to infantry.

Original idea was posted in the Land Raider thread as a house rule. Honestly I think it's a great idea.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Going to a 3+ save for vehicle armour would be interesting. S6/S7 lose 67% of their effectiveness against AV. In response, players need more S8 AP3+ to compensate. And these weapons being low RoF, aren't nearly so dangerous to infantry.

Original idea was posted in the Land Raider thread as a house rule. Honestly I think it's a great idea.

But the heavy bolter is still hosed, because it can't wound MCs like S6/7 can.

I kind of get the feeling that people think that if a heavy weapon (or any weapon) doesn't lead to units being removed in one blow that it is bad.(I blame Ion Accelerators! )

The HB (and Assault Cannon) are meant to supplement the basic firepower of the squad, not wipe out things on their lonesome.

Alcibiades wrote:
I kind of get the feeling that people think that if a heavy weapon (or any weapon) doesn't lead to units being removed in one blow that it is bad.(I blame Ion Accelerators! )

The HB (and Assault Cannon) are meant to supplement the basic firepower of the squad, not wipe out things on their lonesome.

They aren't supplementing, because so many units are immune to or nigh-immune to bolters. They are doing all the heavy lifting.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
wouldnt be to hard to invent some fluff about how they found a new STC for HB's that give it a special rule.

This is true. After all, there's all sorts of spiffy ammo or special army-wide rules for Heavy Bolters in Horus Heresy gameplay.

Maybe its just because I lack other options, but my heavy bolters have been some of the most effective weapons my Sisters have against Necrons... heavy flamers are better, but the heavy bolter outranges the 'crons at least.