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THIS FROM AN ORK! yeah i also started out playing marines before I learned better.

Anyway, I am a horde army, Heavy bolters are designed to be the bane of my existence. I actually get excited when my opponent tells me he has Heavy Bolters in his list.

This isn't a Major overhaul but I think it is necessary.


Heavy Bolter:
Range 36 S5 AP4 Heavy 4.

Any comments anyone?

The big issue is that compared to other heavy weapons available to tac or devastator marines it doesn't gel well with a lot of their special weapons with their need to stay still in order to get their full complement of shooting. This is seen with tactical marines, who are almost always on the move and for devastators they have a similar issue where 36" isn't enough range for them to be in optimal position in most games (presuming there is adequate LoS blocking terrain) and therefore need to waste a turn or two getting into position. This issue of mobility I think would be better addressed if it was a Salvo 2/3 weapon, this way the tac marines can move without having to snapfire or stay still to get the full benefit of the gun. Similarly, the devastators would have a mobility they wouldn't have if they took other heavy weapons options while still putting out a decent output of anti-infantry fire. This is of course if they make the pricing of the Heavy Bolter down to 5 points rather than an absurd 10.

I foresee massive ripple effects with Heavy 4. Think about all the problems we've had to deal with trying to fix Stormbolters.

Now turn that up to eleven for Heavy Bolters. Remember, HBs are equipped by defeault by most IG vehicles, and most Imperial vehicles in general can take a set of sponson HBs.

There's also the issue that most of the time it seems like it's not HBs in general that have issues, it's HBs carried by infantry. As a general start, I like the following changes:

HBs are now a 5 point weapon upgrade. Additionally, the Astartes and Sororitas pattern HBs are introduced, which are Marine and Sisters specific variants with the Salvo 2/3 weapon type, rather than Heavy 3.

IG can't logically carry and fire HBs as Salvo 2/3, considering it's a two-man team manning a tripod mounted, spade-grip fired heavy weapon. SM/SoB have the benefit of power armor, and while a Marine is already strong enough to lug around a HB without PA, Sisters likely have a special variant- much like their existing "Godwyn-De'az pattern" bolters- that provides a reduced-weight weapon that can be carried with ease by a power-armored Sister.

Too complicated Whiskey, to many profiles in a game that is already hard enough to remember the exact profile of your opponents weapons. Im just saying that as an Ork player I love seeing Devs and even tanks with Heavy bolters instead of Plasma cannons/Flamers.

Ghaz, how do you find the HBs perform against your Ork army on the table?

An extra shot is nice but if the main issue is mobility or overperforming ACs (to pop transports at range like Trukks), the HB is still going to get panned.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Too complicated Whiskey, to many profiles in a game that is already hard enough to remember the exact profile of your opponents weapons. Im just saying that as an Ork player I love seeing Devs and even tanks with Heavy bolters instead of Plasma cannons/Flamers.

So... you like Heavy Bolters because they're not nearly as effective against your horde-army style Orks, in comparison to blast and template weapons.

And you think that Heavy 4 is going to change that.

When it comes down to it, it's not too complicated. I can barely remember off-hand what weapon goes with what profile for most of the xeno armies in the game- I literally have to look up most every gun in the Eldar book. Tau, DE, Crons, are a little bit better, but not by much. I barely know which Ork 'special' weapons do what, and I literally know the S/AP values of maybe four Tyranid guns off the top of my head. Not even the range of RoF values, just Strength and AP.

I get around this by simply referring to reference tables constantly. It's not hard.

It's also worth noting that the main problems HBs have tend to be lumped into two main issues:

1) HBs are too expensive for what they offer
2) HBs are too inflexible for infantry that must move around.

The problem with Salvo 2/3 HBs for IG is that it's incredibly unintuitive. All of the GW-official models are a two-man, what, 60mm? base firing a fixed-position weapon. No one will believe that they can actually move around and fire with that arrangement in anything resembling a timely fashion. For Marines and Sisters, it's reasonably intuitive- it looks big and heavy, but like you could walk around shooting it to reduced effect. IE, Salvo rules.

TBH, at present a major issue for HBs is just that the meta favors so many S6/7 weapons, which themselves often have passable RoF but are taken in such numbers as to make RoF issues irrelevant. There's also all the ripple effects of Heavy 4 HBs. There are better ways to fix Heavy Bolters than just buffing their RoF.

We simply need to figure out what that way is.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Ghaz, how do you find the HBs perform against your Ork army on the table?

An extra shot is nice but if the main issue is mobility or overperforming ACs (to pop transports at range like Trukks), the HB is still going to get panned.

Generally I ignore them because they aren't effective. 3 shots 2 hits usually 2 wounds means I lose 2 orks, im not to concerned with that, throw in the double sponson and im sitting with 4 dead orks, thats factoring in 0 FNP and 0 Cover, I usually have one of those in my boyz squads. So its not important to me. Thats why a Xenos player thinks they need a buff.

Heavy Bolter isn't great vs Boyz, since you're paying to get AP4. Ideally you go after tougher targets like Nobs with the 4+ armour upgrade to make back your points.

yeah but yoyoyo my 4+ Nobz are always in a vehicle unless they just won an assault and got caught in the open. otherwise they are in CC, in the trukk or in some kind of cover to givem that 5+ cover and FNP

i vote for 5pts hb. I would deploy do many havoc squads with 4 hb. hb can hurt wave serpents right?

Arguably heavy 4 isn't enough still, maybe heavy 5 to really take it into it's own realm. Or Heavy 4 pinning, to slow down what you are shooting at also potentially.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Arguably heavy 4 isn't enough still, maybe heavy 5 to really take it into it's own realm. Or Heavy 4 pinning, to slow down what you are shooting at also potentially.

THAT! is a good thought!

Heavy 4 pinning, arguably even heavy 3 pinning would be ok, it would slow the hordes down to give you more chances to fire, keep the same point cost or add 1-2 pts if they make it heavy 4 pinning. Good thinking.

I'd say heavy shots plus pinning with no price increase still, or heavy 5. So many units can gain fearless one way or another that at points it could be useless and this, the standard heav bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also make multi-heavy bolter squads/vehicles not ideal still as they only need 1 to pin the enemy.

but to have it would MAKE units take the feareless upgarde costing them poinst

Considering Sniper and Barrage both lost pinning, I'm curious about the logic why.

Machine guns usually do a good job of pinning units down in real life conflicts, it's one of their main jobs along with actually killing. Heavy bolster is a machine gun, and whilst it can be argued that other weapons should also get this fluff wise blah blah blah, it would just give the humble heavy bolster something different and provide another option as to why it could or should be used. There's no real reason why a power axe is AP2 and a power sword isn't other than to give it a different in game mechanic, and this would be the same sort of thing.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Machine guns usually do a good job of pinning units down in real life conflicts, it's one of their main jobs along with actually killing. Heavy bolster is a machine gun, and whilst it can be argued that other weapons should also get this fluff wise blah blah blah, it would just give the humble heavy bolster something different and provide another option as to why it could or should be used. There's no real reason why a power axe is AP2 and a power sword isn't other than to give it a different in game mechanic, and this would be the same sort of thing.

Traditionally Axes were able to pierce armor more so then a sword because in battle you don't lunge with a sword as much as swing it and an axe can put more force behind a swing then a sword. The reason that Axes weren't as prevalent was that they took a bit of recovery time which usually ended with the bearer getting stabbed in the neck.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Machine guns usually do a good job of pinning units down in real life conflicts, it's one of their main jobs along with actually killing. Heavy bolster is a machine gun, and whilst it can be argued that other weapons should also get this fluff wise blah blah blah, it would just give the humble heavy bolster something different and provide another option as to why it could or should be used. There's no real reason why a power axe is AP2 and a power sword isn't other than to give it a different in game mechanic, and this would be the same sort of thing.

In all seriousness, an would generally be better at penetrating armor. Swords are generally designed for slashing and stabbing, neither of wish carry a tremendous amount of force behind them. A sword cuts you in half because it's actually cutting you as it slides across you, it needs very little force if it's sharp to cut you. An axe, on the other hand, is all about hacking. Not as versatile, but carries more force behind the swing and it all goes directly into the point the blade hits. Still works even if the blade is relatively dull compared to the sword.

I do think it's a bit silly that some machine guns get pinning (tau carbine) where others that fire more shots don't though.

EDIT: Beat me to it!

Riddle me this one batman, Tau Carbine .....A Carbine is a cross between a Rifle and a Pistol so how the hell do they have such firepower/pinning?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Riddle me this one batman, Tau Carbine .....A Carbine is a cross between a Rifle and a Pistol so how the hell do they have such firepower/pinning?

Tau is how

And to be fair, there are carbines that fire rifle rounds and just have a shortened barrel, and you could also consider that if the tau carbine is a smaller caliber it'd have a potentially higher rate of fire (easier to suppress an opponent).

And then you realize that all tau weapons fire plasma burst things and it just messes with all pre-conceived notions of how firearms work....

Okay, bad example with the axes, but there are other examples in the game where some weapons have a special rule for the sake of a mechanic without giving the same to similar weapons. Heavy 4 and pinning, could make them viable.

Pinning is a possibility but from a design standpoint it's not going to be so fun dealing with pinning spam, right? Heavy Bolters are ubiquitous.

I think effectiveness is just a matter of getting the costing in line and aligning everything with internal Codex balance. Example for HWT, they compete against the Wyvern for supplying anti-infantry. At 65pts you get 1x HB and 2x Mortars w/permanent IC and Shred for 65pts. Also, Autocannons are a little underpriced given their utility against vehicles. So poor internal balance under the current codex, is also one reason HB isn't so attractive.

Here's a rebalance for AM HWTs against the Wyvern. **Draft version.** I haven't looked at cross-codex balance or the numbers yet!

-- Wyvern increased to 75pts. Weapons profile includes:
----- 2x S4 AP6 3" Blast, 48", Ignore Cover, Shred.
----- 3x S5 AP4, 36"

-- HWT - Mortar reduced to 3pts, now has Ignore Cover. Combined Squad is 53pts, 3x Mortar Teams are 54pts.
----- Complete Platoon w/PCS = 190pts (5x S4 AP6, 3" Blast, 48", Ignore Cover)

-- HWT - Heavy Bolter upgrade reduced to 3pts. Combined Squad is 53pts, 3x Heavy Bolter Teams are 54pts.
----- Complete Platoon w/PCS = 190pts (15x S5 AP4, 36")

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Riddle me this one batman, Tau Carbine .....A Carbine is a cross between a Rifle and a Pistol so how the hell do they have such firepower/pinning?

I thought pinning came from the fact that it had underslung photon grenade launcher (fluff-wise per its description in the codex) so it caused pinning via that rather than weight of fire.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Riddle me this one batman, Tau Carbine .....A Carbine is a cross between a Rifle and a Pistol so how the hell do they have such firepower/pinning?

I thought pinning came from the fact that it had underslung photon grenade launcher (fluff-wise per its description in the codex) so it caused pinning via that rather than weight of fire.

Didn't know that was the reasoning. But even then, you're trying to say that a laser light show is going to make my marines throw themselves helplessly to the ground? Yet wimpy tau are just going to stand there and laugh while heavy bolters drop a couple hundred shells on them, with no fear whatsoever of the imminent liquification of their entire upper body?

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Riddle me this one batman, Tau Carbine .....A Carbine is a cross between a Rifle and a Pistol so how the hell do they have such firepower/pinning?

I thought pinning came from the fact that it had underslung photon grenade launcher (fluff-wise per its description in the codex) so it caused pinning via that rather than weight of fire.

Didn't know that was the reasoning. But even then, you're trying to say that a laser light show is going to make my marines throw themselves helplessly to the ground? Yet wimpy tau are just going to stand there and laugh while heavy bolters drop a couple hundred shells on them, with no fear whatsoever of the imminent liquification of their entire upper body?

You can say it about every ranged weapon...

...
...
Let's give all weapons pinning!

 koooaei wrote:
You can say it about every ranged weapon...

...
...
Let's give all weapons pinning!

Eh, not exactly. The slower something fires, and the more often it needs to be reloaded, allowed to cool, etc. the less likely it is to force your opponent to hold their position. If you're firing a bunch of rifles at them and take a few seconds to reload, they'll pop their heads out and shoot back, or charge you. The idea of suppression is that there's a near continuous stream of bullets coming at your squad, meaning you're too nervous to peek your head out to shoot back, let alone charge them. What provides a better endless stream of bullets than a gun that literally has a backpack full of ammo feeding into it?

So no, none of the base weapons should get it. Only things that can be described as bottomless leadbelchers. Maybe give it to things like Lootas if they roll for max firepower?

Heavy Bolters are fine IMO. Out of the suggestions listed here, I think I'm with the guy who said reduce them to simply reduce them to 5 points a model.

They aren't what's supposed to counter your horde Ork army. They are more to chew up T3 infantry, of which they do an extremely good job.

Adding more shots would have huge ripple effects, biggest of which is for Dark Angels of all armies. One of the better long-range rate-of-fire spamming squads in the game is double heavy bolter 5-speeder deep Ravenwing squads. If they were heavy 4 (or heavy 5 like some people suggested), I'd have 40 (or 50) S5 AP4 BS4 shots from 36" on a highly mobile platform for 300 points. As a Dark Angels player this would make me happy, but I doubt many other people would share my happiness.

And the ease I could twin-link all of that with psykers. Ho boy. That'd be a lot of fun.

 kingbobbito wrote:
The idea of suppression is that there's a near continuous stream of bullets coming at your squad, meaning you're too nervous to peek your head out to shoot back, let alone charge them.

So, how do you imagine this?

A squad of firewarriors stands cool watching how 9 bolter marines rain them with bolt fire. And than, suddenly: "OH NOEZ! A heavy bolter!" and they must pass pinning.

I'd say that irl almost any ranged weapon causes pinning

 koooaei wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
The idea of suppression is that there's a near continuous stream of bullets coming at your squad, meaning you're too nervous to peek your head out to shoot back, let alone charge them.

So, how do you imagine this?

A squad of firewarriors stands cool watching how 9 bolter marines rain them with bolt fire. And than, suddenly: "OH NOEZ! A heavy bolter!" and they must pass pinning.

I'd say that irl almost any ranged weapon causes pinning

Actually, I would like to watch some fire warriors say "OH NOEZ!" and fall to the ground

It's all about perspective really. 9 bolters are firing single shots or small bursts, and all intermittent. A guy pops up here, takes a few shots, a guy pops up there, takes a few shots... unless you're in their face they're spitting a handful of bullets at you. Then big papa bolter stands up and goes dakka dakka dakka, firing on his own as many bullets as the 9 other guys combined... I think some tau pants just got a little wet.

Yes, the rules say it's only "three shots" vs a marine's one, but that's after you account for the fact that it's wildly inaccurate compared to a standard bolter.

Makes sense, doesn't it? Ah well, I can at least have my heavy bolter fantasies where marines are actually cool.

In all seriousness, I'd be happy with a points drop if that was only option.

if hb was 5pts, does that make the quad bolter 20pts? is tl hb 10pts?

my army list would be

sorc+2×10 cultists for 160pts
3x5 havocs with 4 hb for 285pts

and then i would spam some lascannons in other slots.

if predators can be squadrons then i would spam 85pts preds with hb side sponsons.

if quad bolters on rapier batteries were 25pts instead of 45pts then i would spam them. ( i could be wrong on pts)

if hb was 5pts then i would spam for malefic ammo to rend!