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Reduce HB to 5pts only if the shooter is in Power Armor. The other 5pts was for the mount/stand for the guardsmen to shoot it.

Why power armor only?

Allow squads and dedicated transports to overwatch their heavy bolters once a turn against ranged attacks. lets call it "return fire"

Squads and dedicated transports with Heavy bolters allows you to hit on fives during overwatch. Would give troops and their dedicated transport more synergy lets call it "tracer fire"

Well I think that if there were fewer Marines armies in the meta that HBs would be much more popular.

They're quite effective against Necrons BTW.

 koooaei wrote:
Why power armor only?

Because the piece of metal to stand the hb on the ground or on a vehicle costs 5pts.

Except the idea that you're "paying for the piece of metal to stand the Heavy Bolter on the ground" is slowed.

Heavy Bolters at 10 points are, for IG, competing with Autocannons that are pretty much infinitely better. For the same price you can easily squeeze in enough S7/48" range shooting to murder most things from across the board, while still retaining a good chunk of anti-infantry fire.

And if you're just really worried about anti-infantry, then throw a Wyvern or two into your list. That will mince infantry to pieces with ease, and much more efficiently, than a bunch of 10-point HBs.

A 5-point HB, however, competes with the Mortar. Both do the same job, but do it in sufficiently different ways as to be a choice of either tactical/strategic preference or even aesthetic preference. A Mortar offers an overall poorer-quality blast template, but it's also a barrage weapon so you can keep your squishy HWTs safely concealed from direct-fire weapons. HBs offer superior overall killing potential, thanks to better S/AP values, trading a little bit of range.

I'd argue that Heavy 3 is about comparable to a Heavy 1 3" Blast, due to the fact that spacing is a huge issue for the small blast templates.

The whole point of me proposing 5pts hb for power armor only is to side step IG and hwt comparison.

Because the AC is better, there is a higher demand for ac not hb so there is a surplus of hb lying around. They took all the tripod stands and vehicle mounts for the hb and jury rigged it for ac. The construction of that metal stand is lost to the dark ages and not easily mass produced. Therefore the hb tripod/ vehicle mounts that are specifically calibrated for hb cost a mind bending 5pts.

Orks on the other hand can jury rig heavy dakka on to any crude tripod and vehicle without any cost as scraps of metal is suplerflous .

.......You do realize, of course, that you've just demonstrated the stupidity of "5pt HBs for PA-armies only" far better than I ever could, right?

I mean, there's simply no logical way that you actually believe what you've typed and therefore must be, in fact, trolling the piss out of everyone else in the thread.

Because the alternative is simply too ridiculous and stupid to bear consideration.

Oh, by the way, just in case you're serious, the whole "AC is better than HB, but both should still cost the same" is idiotic.

I think salvo 2/3 or 2/4 would make them much more viable.

Whiskey144 wrote:
.......You do realize, of course, that you've just demonstrated the stupidity of "5pt HBs for PA-armies only" far better than I ever could, right?

I mean, there's simply no logical way that you actually believe what you've typed and therefore must be, in fact, trolling the piss out of everyone else in the thread.

Because the alternative is simply too ridiculous and stupid to bear consideration.

Oh, by the way, just in case you're serious, the whole "AC is better than HB, but both should still cost the same" is idiotic.

lolz!

 More Dakka wrote:
I think salvo 2/3 or 2/4 would make them much more viable.

Still wouldn't use it. S5 is just too poor on a heavy slot.

Whiskey144 wrote:

Filch wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:

Filch wrote:
Because the piece of metal to stand the hb on the ground or on a vehicle costs 5pts.

XD

We are fish eating smaller fish eating smaller fish.

Come on, its basic WH40k economics!

Stuff that are over powered are undercosted and stuff that suck are over costed. Case in point at all the worthless stuff in CSM being over costed while a WS has a devastating offense for just 10pts.

A freaking Necron warrior is much better than a CSM and cost less! It can glance an av14 vehicle. Has fnp rp. Has nearly the same stat line.

The same spawns from RH cost 40pts less! CSM has 3 spawns for 90pts while RH has 3 spawns for 55pts! The price for the same things are not equivalent. Pricing is so inconsistent its like a stock market of randomness.

in wh40k, you can charge through walls, a ws can jink while imobolized, invisible are immune to template and blast. YOu have unlimited vertical movement. etcc... so much non sense!

so it would only make sense that a piece of metal cost 5pts while the orks can jury rig any and everything for free.

Flawless logic IMO. I'm convinced

Actually, you can't jink while immobilised any more.

 Filch wrote:
so it would only make sense that a piece of metal cost 5pts while the orks can jury rig any and everything for free.

Except that Orks don't get Heavy Bolters or Autocannons. In fact, a squad of CSM, Chosen, or Havocs all pay 10 points for either a HB or an AC. Just like the IG. So why should only the Chaos Marines get the benefit of having HBs that are cheaper than Autocannons? Especially when you consider that the IG have to take HWTs, which actually take two guns off the field, instead of just one, like any variety of PA-equipped heavy weapon carrier.

The argument that "only PA armies should get 5 point HBs for infantry" is stupid, because every unit in the game is paying too much for a Heavy Bolter. For most of the PA-equipped armies, there's either a better choice for the cost, given the current meta, or there's simply not another option. In the former, the better-for-cost option is taken. In the case of the latter, the option will simply not be used. Granted, for PA-armies part of the problem of HBs is that it tends to kill the squad's mobility, which sucks immeasurably. HBs are even one of the few weapons which would make a good Salvo-type weapon. But for IG- and to a lesser extent CSM- the "HB problem" is that it costs just as much as an AC but is only better in such niche conditions (meta wise) as to be considered relatively useless.

It's rare for a vehicle to come along and actually be paying 20 points for 2 HB sponsons and actually be cost-efficient. Mostly it involves specific combinations (like IG Leman Russ+Pask); for a SM/CSM tank, like, say, a Predator, 10 points per sponson HB is ridiculously overpriced. Of course, Predators have their own issues which are separate from HB problems, but let's stay on topic.

In any case, HBs aren't worth 10 points. If you could get them for 5 points, and certain armies could even get a Salvo variation (mostly Marines/Sisters, who need the mobile firepower a lot more than the Guard), then they would be pretty good from an objective standpoint. They'd still suffer in the current meta of "S6/7 above all", but that's a meta issue, and not a HB issue.

Personally I agree with Filch.

But if we are being serious, here's the effectiveness of the two side by side. Assume all hits, no saves. Heavy Bolter is on top.

Against T3
-- 3x(5/6) = 15/6 (2.5)
-- 2x(5/6) = 10/6 (1.67)

Against T4
-- 3x(2/3) = 6/3 (2.0)
-- 2x(5/6) = 10/6 (1.67)

Against T5
-- 3x(1/2) = 3/2 (1.5)
-- 2x(5/6) = 10/6 (1.67)

Against T6 or AV10
-- 3x(1/3) = 3/3 (1.0)
-- 2x(2/3) = 4/3 (1.33)

Against T7 or AV11
-- 3x(1/6) = 3/6 (0.5)
-- 2x(1/2) = 2/2 (1.0)

Against T8 only -- HB cannot glance AV12!!!
-- 3x(1/6) = 3/6 (0.5)
-- 2x(1/3) = 2/3 (0.67)

What you should notice: the Heavy Bolter is an anti-infantry weapon! Even against bikes at T5, it's less useful. So be judicious in it's application. Lessons learned -- only shoot them at T3 and T4 targets!

I'd like to point out that I fully acknowledged that HBs are anti-infantry weapons, and that even at 5 points people wouldn't take them due to the meta, not because HBs are objectively bad.

HBs at 5 points are a good buy. HBs at 10 points are not. Here's a comparison in terms of role/cost:

Mortar: dedicated anti-infantry weapon. Costs 5 points.
HB: dedicated anti-infantry weapon. Costs 10 points.
AC: multirole anti-light armor/anti-MC weapon. Costs 10 points.
ML: multirole weapon; costs 15 points; costs 25 points with anti-flyer ammo upgrade.
LC: dedicated anti-armor weapon; costs 20 points.

So we see some interesting things here- multirole weapons (like MLs) tend to cost more- a ML costs 5 points more than an AC, but gets to engage a wider variety of land-bound targets. You can take Flakk (which is still overpriced), which makes it 5 points more expensive than the lascannon, but can shoot at most anything in the game and have a passable chance of doing something.

Mortars, a dedicated anti-infantry weapon, cost 5 points. Compared to a HB they have poorer S/AP/RoF values, but make up for it with improved range, as well as the Blast and Barrage traits. IMO the increased S/AP/RoF of the HB is a fair trade in comparison with the better range/Blast/Barrage traits of the Mortar.

Either that, or Autocannons should cost 15 points, because of their multipurpose nature.

To sort of drive the point home, the AC can engage with passable results anything that a HB can. They cost the same amount of points. The AC has superior range and Strength, increasing its potential target profile.

If I absolutely, positively must kill every T3 infantry model on the board, then the better choice is generally going to be something like a Wyvern or Hellhound. Not mass HBs.

Whiskey144 wrote:
If I absolutely, positively must kill every T3 infantry model on the board, then the better choice is generally going to be something like a Wyvern or Hellhound. Not mass HBs.

Yup. For what it's worth, I think the Wyvern is quite undercosted.

Salvo 2/3.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
If I absolutely, positively must kill every T3 infantry model on the board, then the better choice is generally going to be something like a Wyvern or Hellhound. Not mass HBs.

Yup. For what it's worth, I think the Wyvern is quite undercosted.

Well, see that's the thing. It's not just that I'd pick a Wyvern over a bunch of HBs for murdering T3 infantry. It's that there are simply so many other things that are either better at the job or are more versatile. Valkyries with MRPs, Hellhounds, Manticores, Basilisks, any of the 5" blast Russes, the LR Punisher, or the LR Exterminator.

Mass HBs are really only "awesome" when considering the Quad HB on the Rapier carriages, since it's Heavy 6 and Twin-Linked, on top of being on a T7/3+ artillery carriage. And even then, the biggest part of that "awesome" is the gun carriage itself, because of just how impressively durable that T7/3+ can be.

The unfortunate thing is that it's unlikely to really change even if HBs are 5 points, simply because there's just so many things that can bring the hate on massed T3 infantry models. Even in SM armies, there's TFCs and Whirlwinds- even Vindicators are pretty good at gibbing large amounts of T3 infantry- though to be fair there's not many infantry models that a Vindi can't gib en masse. LRCs are pretty chill at killing mass T3 infantry, though you do have to sit still- and even the "worst" configuration for DevCents (HB+Hurricanes) can mulch T3 infantry like no tomorrow.

This is, quite frankly, why HBs are likely to remain useful for two primary things:

1) Enhancing squad-level anti-infantry firepower, such as a HB in a Tac/BSS/CSM squad.
2) Throwing spare guns onto tanks, since the extra shots won't really be a downside (if appropriately costed, that is), and worst-case you can probably keep your really nice turret guns firing for longer since the sponsons could soak Weapon Destroyed results.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Personally I agree with Filch.

But if we are being serious, here's the effectiveness of the two side by side. Assume all hits, no saves. Heavy Bolter is on top.

Against T3
-- 3x(5/6) = 15/6 (2.5)
-- 2x(5/6) = 10/6 (1.67)

Against T4
-- 3x(2/3) = 6/3 (2.0)
-- 2x(5/6) = 10/6 (1.67)

Against T5
-- 3x(1/2) = 3/2 (1.5)
-- 2x(5/6) = 10/6 (1.67)

Against T6 or AV10
-- 3x(1/3) = 3/3 (1.0)
-- 2x(2/3) = 4/3 (1.33)

Against T7 or AV11
-- 3x(1/6) = 3/6 (0.5)
-- 2x(1/2) = 2/2 (1.0)

Against T8 only -- HB cannot glance AV12!!!
-- 3x(1/6) = 3/6 (0.5)
-- 2x(1/3) = 2/3 (0.67)

What you should notice: the Heavy Bolter is an anti-infantry weapon! Even against bikes at T5, it's less useful. So be judicious in it's application. Lessons learned -- only shoot them at T3 and T4 targets!

Okay, but ANY weapon can look decent if you assume all hits and no saves. What in the world does this teach us, exactly?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What in the world does this teach us, exactly?

That hb are better vs infantry than AC (shocking, right).

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What in the world does this teach us, exactly?

That hb are better vs infantry than AC (shocking, right).

But not so much better that I'd ever consider taking one.

I would like to point out that heavy bolters perform great on my Cyclone missile launcher speeders. They actually end up putting decent wounds on MC which is all I expect out of them. I consider them the best weapon option between a flamer MM and HB. Mostly because speeders are fragile and really only survive with mobility and range - interestingly enough I think this is the only place a HB can realistically work. Being heavy and only range 36" I find on dakka preds that the HB are rarely in range and I can't move to put the target in range cause tanks are crap in this edition - same for infantry with HB - they have to remain stationary and only 36" range. On fast vehicles they are the bomb though.

Yeah, but 'Phoon Speeders want to stay at range, and realistically speaking the HB is left on because it's simply easier to leave it. The MM swap is 10 points more expense for something that is relatively expensive for its durability when 'Phoon fit, while the HF is simply unable to synergize with the Typhoon ML. The range bracket of a HF and the bracket of the Typhoon ML are so radically different as to be kind of dumb to try and use them in the same unit.

To put it another way, a Typhoon/HF speeder is schizophrenic like a SB/PF Terminator- they want to be using weapons that are suited to such different situations that it becomes nearly impossible to make cost effective.

In any case, you've also succinctly pointed out why the HB+Typhoon combination works- Land Speeders are relatively thin vehicles that leverage their mobility and range to survive and the HB is the longest range crew-mount weapon you can take.

Know what Heavy Bolters are better against than Autocannons?

Necrons. Sure, you need to keep enough anti-tank around to kill the Ghost Arks, but once you do, the 'crons don't care if your S5 AP4 or S10 AP1. They're still going to ignore half of all incoming fire (assuming Warriors).

Against Lychguard? That rate of ignored hits goes up to five sixths of all wounds being deflected... assuming they are not in a decurion.

Heavy Bolters have a niche: Killing Necrons.

Oh just make all bolsters S10 Ap2 already! Lol. ... and heavy 6!

Then lower the cost!

Narf!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Know what Heavy Bolters are better against than Autocannons?

Necrons. Sure, you need to keep enough anti-tank around to kill the Ghost Arks, but once you do, the 'crons don't care if your S5 AP4 or S10 AP1. They're still going to ignore half of all incoming fire (assuming Warriors).

Against Lychguard? That rate of ignored hits goes up to five sixths of all wounds being deflected... assuming they are not in a decurion.

Heavy Bolters have a niche: Killing Necrons.

While I appreciate the contribution, I feel that we've already established that the HB is better at killing a large variety of infantry models than the Autocannon is. It's just that for the price you pay, the substantial increase in overall versatility that you gain for taking ACs is simply more valuable than the moderate increase in anti-infantry firepower that HBs confer.

At present, I feel the problems of the HB are summed up thusly:

1) It's too expensive for what it is/does
2) When deployed by infantry, it often negatively impacts mobility (which is critical) if the HB is to be deployed in the most effective manner possible
3) S6/7 firepower is king under the current meta/core mechanics.

As far as 1&2 go, we can easily fix that- HBs cost 5 points, are instead Salvo weapons; while there would be penalties for moving&shooting, such penalties would be, IMO, far less than what currently is imposed. This is especially the case for Tac/CSM/BSS units, where the other "on-the-move" weapon choices tend to be fairly short ranged, so the Salvo half-range penalty on the HB (where range becomes 18") isn't overly difficult to surmount.

As far as the meta goes... that would require a substantial change to how a number of other mechanics- mostly core ones (thinking of vehicle damage in particular here)- work.

darkcloak wrote:
Oh just make all bolsters S10 Ap2 already! Lol. ... and heavy 6!

Then lower the cost!

Narf!

You are not being helpful. Please do not comment if you do not have something even slightly constructive to say.

I think that kind of candor is very valuable. It's better than a bunch of hot air.

2) When deployed by infantry, it often negatively impacts mobility (which is critical) if the HB is to be deployed in the most effective manner possible

Actually, heavy bolters do not have any rules that negatively affect a unit's mobility. It's just the same set of rules as any other heavy weapon.