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nosferatu1001 wrote:
It depends on whether we need a rule to say it, as Code: Name is NOT a rule as such, or whether an equivalency found within the codex is sufficient. there is an equivalence made and fairly early on.

The thing is, the equivalency made in the codex is that Astra Mumblemumble are Imperial Guard. But that doesn't mean that Codex Astra Moveitmoveit is the same as Codex: Imperial Guard, any more than Codex: Dark Angels is the same as Codex: Space Marines, even though Dark Angels are space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
Brennon... this is YMDC. It's not a forum about coming up with a common sense answer. It's a forum about coming up with a RaW supported answer.

Well, no, it's a forum for both of those things.

In this particular instance, though, we're discussing the nitpicky, RAW-supported answer.

 insaniak wrote:
The thing is, the equivalency made in the codex is that Astra Mumblemumble are Imperial Guard.

Does it say that in the rules, or in the fluff?

But that doesn't mean that Codex Astra Moveitmoveit is the same as Codex: Imperial Guard, any more than Codex: Dark Angels is the same as Codex: Space Marines, even though Dark Angels are space marines.

Except that's not really true. DA aren't space marines rules-wise, if you have Preferred Enemy: Space Marines you don't get the bonus against DA or CSM.

 Peregrine wrote:
, if you have Preferred Enemy: Space Marines you don't get the bonus against DA or CSM.

Why not?

I can't see anything in the Preferred Enemy rule that says that it applies specifically to codex names.

Quoting the Sanctioned Fratricide rule from Asterion Moloc:

Sanctioned Fratricide
Asterion Moloc and all models in a Primary Detachment that contains him and have Chapter Tactics (Minotaurs) have the Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) special rule. Note this applies to any army drawn from Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Blood Angels, and the Space Marine Siege Vanguard army list (see Imperial Armour Volume 10 – The Badab War Part 2, and any models with the Chapter Tactics (Astral Claws) used as part of the Tyrant’s Legion army list (see Imperial Armour Volume 9 – The Badab War Part 1).

 yakface wrote:

You might want to mention to him that by that rationale there are no IA units that the AM can take currently.

I like this interpretation.

 insaniak wrote:
Why not?

Because "space marines" refers to a particular army, not separate armies that just happen to have similar fluff.

I can't see anything in the Preferred Enemy rule that says that it applies specifically to codex names.

It doesn't, because Preferred Enemy isn't limited to targeting a codex.

 Aenarian wrote:
Quoting the Sanctioned Fratricide rule from Asterion Moloc:

Sanctioned Fratricide
Asterion Moloc and all models in a Primary Detachment that contains him and have Chapter Tactics (Minotaurs) have the Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) special rule. Note this applies to any army drawn from Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Blood Angels, and the Space Marine Siege Vanguard army list (see Imperial Armour Volume 10 – The Badab War Part 2, and any models with the Chapter Tactics (Astral Claws) used as part of the Tyrant’s Legion army list (see Imperial Armour Volume 9 – The Badab War Part 1).

Of course this is a unit-specific rule, not a general statement that PE (space marines) applies to those armies. And interestingly it omits CSM and GK, despite the fact that most people would consider them "space marines" fluff-wise.

 Peregrine wrote:
Because "space marines" refers to a particular army, not separate armies that just happen to have similar fluff.

Based on what?

Because to my mind, 'Codex: Space Marines' refers to a specific army. 'Space Marines' refers to, well, space marines.

It doesn't, because Preferred Enemy isn't limited to targeting a codex.

And there you go, then.

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because "space marines" refers to a particular army, not separate armies that just happen to have similar fluff.

Based on what?

Because to my mind, 'Codex: Space Marines' refers to a specific army. 'Space Marines' refers to, well, space marines.

However, in the case of Preferred Enemy, I think the intent is that "Preferred Enemy (Space Marines)" only refers to Codex: Space Marines. This is due to the fact that when Veterans grants Preferred Enemy (Space Marines)..at least I think it's Preferred Enemy...there is a note that in this case it refers to all loyalist chapters - SM, BA, DA, and GK. This implies that normally, at least, that "Space Marines" refers to the codex, not Adeptus Astartes in general.

I would take a note like that as a clarification, rather than as an exception, unless it specifically states that it is a change from the norm.

 insaniak wrote:
Based on what?

Three things:

1) Fluff =/= rules.

2) Space marines and DA/SW/etc are all separate factions. Note that the faction list says "space marines", not "Codex: Space Marines".

3) CSM are not usually considered "space marines" for rules purposes even though fluff-wise they're chaos space marines.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Based on what?

Three things:

1) Fluff =/= rules..

Except when it does. Which is reasonably frequently, where GW is concerned. See the Eldar Avatar's fire immunity over various editions, which resulted on fluff to determine which weapons were affected.

If we're going to be so nitpicky that IG and AM are considered different Codexes then I could point out that Codex: Craftworlds from 3rd edition 40k was never actually overwritten, so the most up-to-date rules would permit me to take Dark Reapers as Troops if I felt like it.

You're a bit late to that party... Already discussed on the first page.

 insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Am references that they are also called Imperial Guard, so it would still work. You could potentially argue that it also creates an equivalency that could be used to say AM == IG.

Yeah, anything that just refers to 'Imperial Guard' is fine, as AM are Imperial Guard. It's only specific references to Codex: Imperial Guard that are an issue.

Which is every single IA unit for the IG/AM. They all specifically refer to being an X choice in a 'Codex: Imperial Guard army'.

This also reminds me that technically there are no such things as 'Codex: X armies' anymore, just detachments. So one could make a point that you're not even allowed to take IA units that don't have 'detachment' wording in their rules (which is most of them still). Or maybe that you can only take them if your entire army is taken from just the specified codex.

 insaniak wrote:
Except when it does. Which is reasonably frequently, where GW is concerned. See the Eldar Avatar's fire immunity over various editions, which resulted on fluff to determine which weapons were affected.

But "fluff =/= rules" is just one item on the list. I notice you ignored the other two, which are pretty convincing evidence that "space marines" in a rules context refers to C:SM, not fluff about who is a "space marine".

If you say so. I disagree, but it's ultimately not something that's going to be resolved here.

I reckon if this is played (codex AM is not equivalent to codex IG) then I have to agree that codex AM does not have access to any Forgeworld units/vehicles, so there are no Lords of War

It goes both ways....

By the same reckoning none of the Guard Forgeworld lists may ally with anyone. As Forgeworld treats them as an Imperial Guard army, and that is not in the 7th edition allies matrix

Maybe RAW, but I certainly don't think RAI and personally i think a bit silly for the mechanics of the game

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
Quoting the Sanctioned Fratricide rule from Asterion Moloc:

Sanctioned Fratricide
Asterion Moloc and all models in a Primary Detachment that contains him and have Chapter Tactics (Minotaurs) have the Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) special rule. Note this applies to any army drawn from Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Blood Angels, and the Space Marine Siege Vanguard army list (see Imperial Armour Volume 10 – The Badab War Part 2, and any models with the Chapter Tactics (Astral Claws) used as part of the Tyrant’s Legion army list (see Imperial Armour Volume 9 – The Badab War Part 1).

Of course this is a unit-specific rule, not a general statement that PE (space marines) applies to those armies. And interestingly it omits CSM and GK, despite the fact that most people would consider them "space marines" fluff-wise.

I'd have to disagree. There's nothing about the wording of that rule to indicate an exception, rather than just a reminder of an established rule.

Regardless, though, perhaps a better example is from Codex: CSM

Designer's Note:
Some rules in this book provide Preferred Enemy or Hatred (Space Marines). The category "Space Marines" comprises all units taken from the following codexes: Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves.

That seems to establish pretty unambiguously that for rules purposes "space marine" refers to all space marine codices.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Regardless, though, perhaps a better example is from Codex: CSM

Designer's Note:
Some rules in this book provide Preferred Enemy or Hatred (Space Marines). The category "Space Marines" comprises all units taken from the following codexes: Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves.

That seems to establish pretty unambiguously that for rules purposes "space marine" refers to all space marine codices.

Well, to be fair, it establishes unambiguously that for the purposes of Preferred Enemy and Hatred within the CSM Codex that Space Marines should encompass several Factions. It offers only anecdotal evidence for other rules purposes.