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Rig by that logic then, nobody in the Big Meks unit would get a bonus either, So it would still be a 5+ invul bubble and a 4+ on the big mek. that seems rather stupid to me.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Rig by that logic then, nobody in the Big Meks unit would get a bonus either, So it would still be a 5+ invul bubble and a 4+ on the big mek. that seems rather stupid to me.

No, by that logic everyone within 6" of the Mek would get a 5++, and if they're in range of the blessing as well it would go up to 4++

By what logic is the Meks own personal inv save transferred? That's not what the KFF rules say at all.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Rig by that logic then, nobody in the Big Meks unit would get a bonus either, So it would still be a 5+ invul bubble and a 4+ on the big mek. that seems rather stupid to me.

I'm sorry, have you read Sanctuary? I'm honestly curious now.

Sanctuary, is a blessing that targets the psyker and his unit, while in effect "the psyker and all models in his unit receive +1 bonus to their invulnerable save. (Models that do not have an invulnerable save gain a 6+ invulnerable save)

This is what the rules are for the KFF: The bearer, and all models within 6", receive a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks. If the bearer is embarked....blah blah blah.

So that means that every model within 6" has a 5++. So, ehh, reading the rules as is, I would say that anyone in his unit gets the 4+ nobody else gets the bonus though. This sucks to because the Orks have only the 1 Invul save :-(

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Sanctuary, is a blessing that targets the psyker and his unit, while in effect "the psyker and all models in his unit receive +1 bonus to their invulnerable save. (Models that do not have an invulnerable save gain a 6+ invulnerable save)

This is what the rules are for the KFF: The bearer, and all models within 6", receive a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks. If the bearer is embarked....blah blah blah.

So that means that every model within 6" has a 5++. So, ehh, reading the rules as is, I would say that anyone in his unit gets the 4+ nobody else gets the bonus though. This sucks to because the Orks have only the 1 Invul save :-(

Yes, when you read the actual rules, models in the Psyker's unit that are within 6" of the KFF get a 4+ invul.
Which is what I've been saying, despite the "by that logic" fud you've been throwing around.

Excuse me for misinterpreting the rules, hold on while I start carrying this cross around to make you feel better about being right.

The mek is using the same invulnerable save as the others. If his increases theirs should. If his doesn't theirs should not. However we will never get anywhere with this arguement since the rules are very unclear about this. I have written gw. Hopefully we get a response that will satisfy and shut up everyone.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The mek is using the same invulnerable save as the others. If his increases theirs should. If his doesn't theirs should not. However we will never get anywhere with this arguement since the rules are very unclear about this. I have written gw. Hopefully we get a response that will satisfy and shut up everyone.

How is it unclear?! Seriously - with the posted rules, please explain how modifying the Mek's save applies to literally any other model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Excuse me for misinterpreting the rules, hold on while I start carrying this cross around to make you feel better about being right.

You weren't "misinterpreting" you were literally making things up and not reading the actual rules (which I could tell based on your "by that logic then, nobody in the Big Meks unit would get a bonus either" despite what the Sanctuary power says).

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The mek is using the same invulnerable save as the others. If his increases theirs should. If his doesn't theirs should not. However we will never get anywhere with this arguement since the rules are very unclear about this. I have written gw. Hopefully we get a response that will satisfy and shut up everyone.

Why? His save isn't what is being passed on.
It all depends on who is in range of what.

The Mek might not even be in the unit that gets the blessing.
And if he is, there's no reason a unit outside of the blessing would get the bonus.

Is the mek in a unit? Check. Is the unit have the same invulnerable save? Check. does the weirboy cast sanctuary? Check. Sanctuary increases the units save by +1, they have either a +5 or +4 already depending on the force field you chose. It is now one better ONLY for the unit that both weird boy and mek are in.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Is the mek in a unit? Check. Is the unit have the same invulnerable save? Check. does the weirboy cast sanctuary? Check. Sanctuary increases the units save by +1, they have either a +5 or +4 already depending on the force field you chose. It is now one better ONLY for the unit that both weird boy and mek are in.

Except the KFF doesn't effect the unit.
It effects models in range. So no, not check.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Is the mek in a unit? Check. Is the unit have the same invulnerable save? Check. does the weirboy cast sanctuary? Check. Sanctuary increases the units save by +1, they have either a +5 or +4 already depending on the force field you chose. It is now one better ONLY for the unit that both weird boy and mek are in.

The underlined is false. Please show a rule.

Only models within 6" have the save. And only the models from the same unit as the Painboy that are within 6" benefit from a 4+ save.

actually Rig the only thing i messed up was that the KFF grants each individual a Invul instead of just casting a bubble. That was what i misinterpreted, But please continue being a jerk im sure it makes everyone want to talk with you and debate things.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The mek is using the same invulnerable save as the others. If his increases theirs should. If his doesn't theirs should not. However we will never get anywhere with this arguement since the rules are very unclear about this. I have written gw. Hopefully we get a response that will satisfy and shut up everyone.

The rules are incredibly clear. The KFF grants a 5+ to every model in range and THEN certain models get +1 when Sanctuary is resolved.

You seem to be under the impression that the KFF grants the Mek's Invuln to those around him. This is incorrect. If it helps, think of it this way. The Mek is carrying around this ridiculous piece of tech that gives an Invuln to everyone in range, himself included. His buddies aren't getting his save. He and his buddies are all getting the KFF's save. Sanctuary then improves the save that in range models have. Sanctuary does NOT in any way, shape or form improve the function of the KFF. Sanctuary is still pumping out a 5++ to everyone. some Orks are just in that Sanctuary zone, so their 5++ drops to a 4++. If you're outside the Sanctuary zone, but still in range of the KFF, you retain the 5++.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
actually Rig the only thing i messed up was that the KFF grants each individual a Invul instead of just casting a bubble. That was what i misinterpreted, But please continue being a jerk im sure it makes everyone want to talk with you and debate things.

I agree ghaz, this guy is the type of guy that is the reason why I wrote to get a gw answer. If I'm wrong I'll be quiet. If I'm right, I can shut him up for good on this post. And rig I will say you're correcting the wording states all models within.. however if the whole unit is within then the whole unit has the save. Play on words friend and I will too.


Edit: kriswall you are exalted and thank you for clearing that up.

Also, can we try to keep this debate polite? Getting indignant and attacking people helps nobody.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The mek is using the same invulnerable save as the others. If his increases theirs should. If his doesn't theirs should not. However we will never get anywhere with this arguement since the rules are very unclear about this. I have written gw. Hopefully we get a response that will satisfy and shut up everyone.

No. Their Invulnerable save should only increase if they're in the area of effect of both rules (the KFF granting the Invulnerable save and Sanctuary improving that save). Your logic would have them gaining an improved Invulnerable save even if they were not affected by Sanctuary because they were not in its area of effect just because the Mek did.

Ghaz his question though is based on the belief that the KFF is a bubble generated by the big mek, but the wording says otherwise as i just learned.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And rig I will say you're correcting the wording states all models within.. however if the whole unit is within then the whole unit has the save. Play on words friend and I will too.

If in the blessed unit and in range of the KFF then yes, but your statement was very general, hence the correction was necessary:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The mek is using the same invulnerable save as the others. If his increases theirs should.

The save the Mek gets has nothing to do with it. That's not what's being passed on.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
actually Rig the only thing i messed up was that the KFF grants each individual a Invul instead of just casting a bubble. That was what i misinterpreted, But please continue being a jerk im sure it makes everyone want to talk with you and debate things.

The only thing?

Nevermind. I'm sorry you feel like the victim here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If I'm right, I can shut him up for good on this post. And rig I will say you're correcting the wording states all models within.. however if the whole unit is within then the whole unit has the save. Play on words friend and I will too.

I'm not "playing on words". When discussing what the rules say it's important to use what the rules actually say and not paraphrase.

That's why I was correcting what you said - not to be pedantic, but to be correct about what the rules say. When too many people paraphrase it leads to confusion and delay.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Ghaz his question though is based on the belief that the KFF is a bubble generated by the big mek, but the wording says otherwise as i just learned.

The rules say it is an area of effect.

I understand that Ghaz, I was under the impression that the buff would also effect the war gear that is granting the invul, after reading i was wrong and I said so. It was probably more hope then anything :-P

But yes Rig I do feel like "the victim" since your making it seem as if your gods gift to rules, I admit i was wrong and you insult me so yeah go expletive yourself :-) anyway i found a button on the bottom that apparently ignores people and I have added you to it.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Ghaz his question though is based on the belief that the KFF is a bubble generated by the big mek, but the wording says otherwise as i just learned.

The rules say it is an area of effect.

The rules don't mention "area of effect", but it totally is an area of effect centered on the bearer and forming a 6" bubble in every direction. Note that this impacts friend and foe alike.

Kustom Force Field - "The bearer, and all models within 6", receive a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks. If the bearer is embarked in a vehicle, then the vehicle receives a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks instead."

Sanctuary, on the other hand impacts

If this helps...

Weirdboy is in the unit with the Mek. All others are Boys. They form a congo line with each model butted up against each other with a 2mm gap such that they each take up one inch (25.4mm).

B = Boy, W = Weirdboy, M=Mek Weirdboy cast Sanctuary, Mek has a KFF The number below each model is what Invuln they have based on how close they are to the Mek. The top row is a seperate unit of 5 Boys. The middle three are within 6" of the Mek, but the two on the either side are slightly farther out. BBBBB -555- BBBBBWBBMBBBBBBBBB 664444444444444666

 Ghazkuul wrote:
But yes Rig I do feel like "the victim" since your making it seem as if your gods gift to rules, I admit i was wrong and you insult me so yeah go expletive yourself :-) anyway i found a button on the bottom that apparently ignores people and I have added you to it.

He pointed out that you were wrong. You were. Move on.

Generally, at least the way I was raised, it is considered rude to tell someone they are wrong, after they had just admitted they were wrong and gave the correction. Because I don't feel like putting up with someone like that I added them to my ignore list. Matter was handled thank you though :-)

Sanctuary is a blessing that targets the psyker and all models in his unit. If the weirdboy is attached to a unit with a big mek with a (KFF 5++), all those models would get affected by sanctuary. Sanctuary adds +1 to the units invulnerable save.

KFF states that the bearer and all models within 6" receive a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks.

Therefore if the weirdboy successfully casts sanctuary and he is attached to the unit with the big mek ALL models within 6" of the big mek would have a 4++ invulnerable save against shooting ( 5++ KFF and +1 for sanctuary). ALL the models outside of the 6" bubble would only have a 6++ invul (sanctuary only).

If this unit ends up in combat then they would all have only a 6++ since the KFF is from shooting only.

YES they stack. IF you have to think of it like a venn diagram with one circle being sanctuary with the other circle being the 6" bubble.

I hope this makes sense!

mhalko1 wrote:
Sanctuary is a blessing that targets the psyker and all models in his unit. If the weirdboy is attached to a unit with a big mek with a (KFF 5++), all those models would get affected by sanctuary. Sanctuary adds +1 to the units invulnerable save.

KFF states that the bearer and all models within 6" receive a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks.

Therefore if the weirdboy successfully casts sanctuary and he is attached to the unit with the big mek ALL models within 6" of the big mek would have a 4++ invulnerable save against shooting ( 5++ KFF and +1 for sanctuary). ALL the models outside of the 6" bubble would only have a 6++ invul (sanctuary only).

If this unit ends up in combat then they would all have only a 6++ since the KFF is from shooting only.

YES they stack. IF you have to think of it like a venn diagram with one circle being sanctuary with the other circle being the 6" bubble.

I hope this makes sense!

This has all been established.

Its those from another squad that should also get the bonus to save. As the Meks KFF has been increased. That is what gives the save after all. Just like any other wargear or model that has a inv save. The KFF just has the added rule that its a bubble/range in inches item.

If it only effects the models with an inv and not the wargear that gives an inv then the Mek's KFF really doesn't improve the save at all and the whole squad would just benefit from a 6++ from Sanctuary. As the boys don't really have a save after all. So which way is it?

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
Its those from another squad that should also get the bonus to save. As the Meks KFF has been increased.

The Mek's KFF has not been increased.Sanctuary does not affect the KFF, just the Mek.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
Its those from another squad that should also get the bonus to save.

No, they shouldn't.

As the Meks KFF has been increased. That is what gives the save after all.

But it hasn't been increased. The Mek has had his personal save boosted. The save given from the KFF stays the same.

Just like any other wargear or model that has a inv save. The KFF just has the added rule that its a bubble/range in inches item.

No, it doesn't "just has the added rule" not at all. It's worded nothing like other invulnerable save wargear. It doesn't pass on the Meks save.
It gives a save to all models in range. The Mek gets it because he's in range.
It does NOT give the Mek a save, which is then passed on, as you seem to be stating.

If it only effects the models with an inv and not the wargear that gives an inv then the Mek's KFF really doesn't improve the save at all and the whole squad would just benefit from a 6++ from Sanctuary. As the boys don't really have a save after all. So which way is it?

Again no, because Santuary improves on existing saves. The existing save in this case is the KFF.

 Ghaz wrote:

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
Its those from another squad that should also get the bonus to save. As the Meks KFF has been increased.

The Mek's KFF has not been increased.Sanctuary does not affect the KFF, just the Mek.