Vaktathi wrote:Other people have touched on some very good points. Ignoring Vehicles for time being per OP's post, I'd like to look at some IG units, as most anything infantry related in the IG codex is pretty bad, though I'll confine myself to just three units for now however.

Lets start with Scions/Stormtroopers. They cost almost as much as Space Marines do, but have a statline almost identical to that of basic Guardsmen. If we look at a Carapace Veteran as a baseline (giving a truly identical statline), as basic Scion/Stormtrooper is paying ~5ppm for Deep Strike and AP3. While one's initial reaction might be to think that's super awesome, there's some problems. First, they still retain that crappy statline, including Leadership, so they die and break like far cheaper infantry. Second, their gun remains S3, while simultaneously having a shorter range (especially critical for rapid fire double-tap), resulting in a dire inability to actually hurt anything to put that AP3 to use, and a range component that requires them to be put right in the range where they're easiest to kill to be most effective, and lack the 3rd special weapon that basic Veterans get at half the basic unit price.

Really, somewhat sadly, the Skitarii Vanguard are almost identical, in nearly every detail, to what I've been advocating IG Stormtroopers (now "Scions") to be since 4th edition, only even better. S3 Assault 3 18" guns, sub-10ppm cost, increased Ld, and some nifty special rules.

Vaktathi wrote:
Lets look at Ogryn/Bullgryn now. Neither of these units are going to match anything near their price in their same role for combat capability, they just aren't. Wraiths, TWC's, etc, even Tyranid Warriors, are going to utterly smash them on a point for point and model for model basis. Add to that the critical Ld dump stat which requires them to have a Character attached to prevent them from running off and they just come off as a unit that cannot do its job effectively.

For these guys, there's no reason they need terrible Ld. It really feels that's being used to reflect their poor intelligence instead of their ability to press forward under fire, and in previous editions they always had above-average Ld (being base Ld8 instead of a normal Guardsmen's Ld7, and up to Ld9 with a Bone'ead). Really, these things should be Ld9, and about 15ppm cheaper to get anywhere.

Vaktathi wrote:
Then we get IG Heavy Weapons units. They're amongst the least effective in an absolute sense, least cost effective, and easiest to destroy heavy weapons units in the game. Being T3 W2 Ld7 means that not only are they very easy to destroy, but that even just a single S6 shot getting through forces a fallback test on Ld7. Add to that they cost as much as SM Devastators or CSM Havocs (the closest equivalents you can really compare) on a per model basis despite being less accurate and resilient and with far fewer unit uptions. Given that a basic guardsmen is ~4ppm, with a unit of 10 coming to 50ppm (with Ld8 Serg adding 10pts to the cost), these units really should start at ~25ppm, not 45. At 25ppm+weapons, you'd have a far more viable unit. Alternatively, if reducing their cost is not seen as favorable, they could use some enhanced resiliency, perhaps a "quasi-artillery" unit type to represent a heavy gun with gun shield and multiple crewman and make the HWT models T5 as long as they didn't move or something?

Desubot wrote:Oh man i didnt even see the non vehicle stipulations :/

I ditto what vaktathi stated

Would really like HWT to be more viable
Cheaper and possibly starting with like a mortar for free.
Possibly giving them Camo netting as an upgrade (since if they are a small team on the move they would probably set up with those)

geargutz wrote:for orks i always thought nobz were a little overpriced. at 18pts its difficult to justify fielding them. for example, a nob with pk, tl shoota and 4up armour is 50pts. while a meaganob is 40 pts, gets 2up armour, pk and tl shoota.
gorkanuats and morkanauts. though i love fielding these units i and most others feel it is pretty pricy to just to run one. at 230-245 its difficult to bring something that can be popped at cc with just melta bombs.
mekguns seem like they are under priced. we orkz got lucky with the evolution of the big guns and it now seems like everyone prefers them as their hs choice (though the points dont match at all with the models actual $ cost. 45$ for one model with an average cost of 30pts is ludicrous).

OrkaMorka wrote:Orks
Nobs - Overpriced. I can't find them a use outside boys squads.

Battlewagons - Over priced for having absolutely 0 weapons. I try hard to find a reason for them. At base cost is what I think they should be after some upgrades. Considering its our heaviest 'tank'.

Killa Kans - 50pts a pop with two big shootas. Bit pricey considering how easily walkers die.

Loota's - Not by much. But its hard to put them in as much as you want to when the range can be a PITA sometimes.

Ashiraya wrote:My Khorne Chosen just feel... I dunno. They hit somewhat hard if they get to melee but they are very expensive, slow, and fragile.

They cost 30ish ppm when upgraded with marks, VotLW, weapons etc., and it feels like other units in the game get so much more for that price. The new jetbikes are obviously a glaring example of that, but it's by no means isolated to things that broken.

I have only had them reach melee when held back as counter-assault units against armies even heavier on melee than mine is.

I love them, I have spent a long time upscaling them and converting them, but they just don't seem to perform up to par.

TheCustomLime wrote:@Ond Angel

Guard Grenade Launchers. They are a cool piece of wargear at first glance. Cool, cheap blast weapons for my guardsmen that can glance light vehicles and can put wounds on a high T model in a pinch! Yay! They even come on the basic guardsmen sprue!

However, they suffer from two problema: Being small blast weapons and being S:3. I am ignoring the Krak Grenade ability since it is not what you are buying the gun for. A Plasma gun does the same thing except better.

With small blast weapons and an opponent that knows his stuff you will only get one hit. Maybe two if you are lucky. A Lasgun does the same thing except it is not as expensive as the guy wielding it. In fact, you will probably get more hits with the Lasgun with orders. I mean, that is what the Grenade Launcher boils down to: A blast lasgun that costs as much as the guy carrying it. If it was free it wouldnt be so bad because you are giving up a lasgun for a lasgun that can fire S:6.

Vaktathi wrote:Oh man I forgot about Grenade Launchers.

Yeah, those things have been bad for...ever.

Given that SM's have Rapid Fire iterations, at least making the IG ones Rapid Fire might actually mean someone takes them once in a while at least in small games.