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2015/04/19 17:01:36
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
Martel732 wrote: Even with a Stormraven, the best you can do is a 6" move then 6" disembark, and a 2D6 charge. I have a turn to get to decide what the Stormraven contents must assault. I do it to Land Raiders all the time and have it done to my DC all the time.
Actually it is 6" Move + 6" Move + 6" Disembark +2d6 Assault.
Land Raiders also woirk
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
2015/04/19 17:04:45
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
If FW ever updates their rules then both Vanguard vets and assault Marines could be obsec from fire raptors tactics. Thatd be cool
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
2015/04/19 17:05:42
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
DoomShakaLaka wrote: If FW ever updates their rules then both Vanguard vets and assault Marines could be obsec from fire raptors tactics. Thatd be cool
That's something, at least. For C:SM, at any rate. Of course, they just go "LOL Gravstar" and not bother with petty HTH.
2015/04/19 17:10:09
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/19 17:13:52
2015/04/19 17:28:43
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Actually my Stormwolf killed of a Chimera before the game was over and I lost about 3 models to Over-Watch and the Basilisk exploding.
As far as my Opponent letting my do thing I don't give them a choice. I move my Units where I wanted to move them using cover to give me cover or blocking forcing him to react to me. That is how you use Assault Units, take the Initiative and force you opponent to react to them.
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Yes, it is certainly not the most point efficient unit by any means. But a Stormraven isn't useless after delivering it's payload, it is quite an effective flyer on its own right. It's also a decent at AA.
But my local meta isn't super competitive and I've had a lot of success with my Vanguard vets.
2015/04/19 17:31:50
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Actually my Stormwolf killed of a Chimera before the game was over and I lost about 3 models to Over-Watch and the Basilisk exploding.
As far as my Opponent letting my do thing I don't give them a choice. I move my Units where I wanted to move them using cover to give me cover or blocking forcing him to react to me. That is how you use Assault Units, take the Initiative and force you opponent to react to them.
Having used BA since 1994, I think I know how to use assault units. Most lists I play against react by shooting my units off the table before they can assault. Is that the reaction you are looking for?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/19 17:32:27
2015/04/19 17:38:21
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Actually my Stormwolf killed of a Chimera before the game was over and I lost about 3 models to Over-Watch and the Basilisk exploding.
As far as my Opponent letting my do thing I don't give them a choice. I move my Units where I wanted to move them using cover to give me cover or blocking forcing him to react to me. That is how you use Assault Units, take the Initiative and force you opponent to react to them.
Having used BA since 1994, I think I know how to use assault units. Most lists I play against react by shooting my units off the table before they can assault. Is that the reaction you are looking for?
All I can say is it is your META or you. I have told you how I have successfully used Assault units for 3 decades and I do it by abusing cove and mobility, not necessarily in that order.
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Yes, it is certainly not the most point efficient unit by any means. But a Stormraven isn't useless after delivering it's payload, it is quite an effective flyer on its own right. It's also a decent at AA.
But my local meta isn't super competitive and I've had a lot of success with my Vanguard vets.
My success rate has gone up sharply after dumping all flyers out of my lists. The Stormraven's firepower is actually pretty poor for it's points compared to 7th ed shooty units.
"All I can say is it is your META or you. I have told you how I have successfully used Assault units for 3 decades and I do it by abusing cove and mobility, not necessarily in that order."
You do realize that a mass-wound approach renders cover completely useless for Astartes, right? And that units like Wraiths are just as mobile, and much, much tougher?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/19 17:41:34
2015/04/19 17:44:38
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Yes, it is certainly not the most point efficient unit by any means. But a Stormraven isn't useless after delivering it's payload, it is quite an effective flyer on its own right. It's also a decent at AA.
But my local meta isn't super competitive and I've had a lot of success with my Vanguard vets.
My success rate has gone up sharply after dumping all flyers out of my lists. The Stormraven's firepower is actually pretty poor for it's points compared to 7th ed shooty units.
"All I can say is it is your META or you. I have told you how I have successfully used Assault units for 3 decades and I do it by abusing cove and mobility, not necessarily in that order."
You do realize that a mass-wound approach renders cover completely useless for Astartes, right? And that units like Wraiths are just as mobile, and much, much tougher?
So use Blocking Cover, exept for a few weapons If they can't see you they can't shoot you.
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Yes, it is certainly not the most point efficient unit by any means. But a Stormraven isn't useless after delivering it's payload, it is quite an effective flyer on its own right. It's also a decent at AA.
But my local meta isn't super competitive and I've had a lot of success with my Vanguard vets.
My success rate has gone up sharply after dumping all flyers out of my lists. The Stormraven's firepower is actually pretty poor for it's points compared to 7th ed shooty units.
"All I can say is it is your META or you. I have told you how I have successfully used Assault units for 3 decades and I do it by abusing cove and mobility, not necessarily in that order."
You do realize that a mass-wound approach renders cover completely useless for Astartes, right? And that units like Wraiths are just as mobile, and much, much tougher?
So use Blocking Cover, exept for a few weapons If they can't see you they can't shoot you.
Our tables have very little blocking cover. There is no stipulation in the rulebook for blocking cover, nor any cover of any kind, actually. Furthermore, JSJ units actually benefit from blocking cover, as do shooting units with 12" move like WS.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/19 17:46:25
2015/04/19 17:46:11
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Actually my Stormwolf killed of a Chimera before the game was over and I lost about 3 models to Over-Watch and the Basilisk exploding.
As far as my Opponent letting my do thing I don't give them a choice. I move my Units where I wanted to move them using cover to give me cover or blocking forcing him to react to me. That is how you use Assault Units, take the Initiative and force you opponent to react to them.
Having used BA since 1994, I think I know how to use assault units. Most lists I play against react by shooting my units off the table before they can assault. Is that the reaction you are looking for?
You sure? You strike me as the "razorspam" army because it was the most "competitive".
This is all that matters. You can zoom the turn before, it doesn't matter. I see where you end up. Assuming you don't get shot down and burn miserably.
Not from the landing pad
You can take the second move on turn 1 adding 6" to your range.
And what if you assume that you don't get shot down.
Yes, it does not always work.
I had a game where my Stormwolf withstood about a dozen Anti-Tank Weapons before a lucky Auto-Cannon shot I mobilized it on the Landing Pad. I still managed to transfer them to a Crusader [Who my opponent could not get a single glance or Pen on] and still kill off a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads, Infantry Squad and a Basilisk with 2 Disorganization Assault.
Even if everything goes right, you paid for a Stormraven and the squad in inside to assault one unit and then get shot off the table. This is the failing of every marine assault transport. You are a paying too many points to assault one unit and then die. If your opponent lets you assault more than one, that's on them. Again, you are getting a lot of cooperation from opponents. And that skews everything. I've got people measuring down to 1/2" on unit spacing and taking my base size into account to make sure my assaults are futile.
Yes, it is certainly not the most point efficient unit by any means. But a Stormraven isn't useless after delivering it's payload, it is quite an effective flyer on its own right. It's also a decent at AA.
But my local meta isn't super competitive and I've had a lot of success with my Vanguard vets.
My success rate has gone up sharply after dumping all flyers out of my lists. The Stormraven's firepower is actually pretty poor for it's points compared to 7th ed shooty units.
"All I can say is it is your META or you. I have told you how I have successfully used Assault units for 3 decades and I do it by abusing cove and mobility, not necessarily in that order."
You do realize that a mass-wound approach renders cover completely useless for Astartes, right? And that units like Wraiths are just as mobile, and much, much tougher?
So use Blocking Cover, exept for a few weapons If they can't see you they can't shoot you.
Our tables have very little blocking cover. There is no stipulation in the rulebook for blocking cover, nor any cover of any kind, actually. Furthermore, JSJ units actually benefit from blocking cover, as do shooting units with 12" move like WS.
Then your META is screwing Assault Armies. Hive a lot of Blocking Cover and watch your META Panic. I have seen it happen before.
We don't play with a lot of blocking cover. They won't allow it as a group. It allegedly slows down games and is not an accurate representation of tournament conditions. And, as I said, it makes real assault units like TWC and Wraiths even more unmanageable for BA.
Just for comparison, I wouldn't care about your vanguards in a Raven even on a cover heavy board. They simply can't cause enough damage once I take a couple simple precautions. Xeno players can do this too and shoot 3X better.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/19 17:55:23
2015/04/19 17:54:55
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
Martel732 wrote: I used a lot of razorbacks in 5th. But now they are kinda junk. Especially with the assault changes.
you sure? for 145pts you get a 11/11/10 box, with, max range of 36", at that range 2 plasma shots, 1 TL plasma shot, and a 60" lascannon shot.
against most armies save scatbikes (which noone can match atm save certain lists) that's some good fire power. If you manage to get in 12 inches, (again, against most armies, not that hard with 12" move) you double your plasma shots.
or, you can take an assualt cannon, or just keep the heavy bolter for 125pts.
Martel732 wrote: I used a lot of razorbacks in 5th. But now they are kinda junk. Especially with the assault changes.
you sure? for 145pts you get a 11/11/10 box, with, max range of 36", at that range 2 plasma shots, 1 TL plasma shot, and a 60" lascannon shot.
against most armies save scatbikes (which noone can match atm save certain lists) that's some good fire power. If you manage to get in 12 inches, (again, against most armies, not that hard with 12" move) you double your plasma shots.
or, you can take an assualt cannon, or just keep the heavy bolter for 125pts.
Yup, pretty sure. AV 11 is too fragile in 7th. You pay for those heavy weapons and they just get shot off the board. WS do a good enough job of laughing them off the table.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/19 17:57:09
2015/04/19 17:56:35
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
Martel732 wrote: I used a lot of razorbacks in 5th. But now they are kinda junk. Especially with the assault changes.
you sure? for 145pts you get a 11/11/10 box, with, max range of 36", at that range 2 plasma shots, 1 TL plasma shot, and a 60" lascannon shot.
against most armies save scatbikes (which noone can match atm save certain lists) that's some good fire power. If you manage to get in 12 inches, (again, against most armies, not that hard with 12" move) you double your plasma shots.
or, you can take an assualt cannon, or just keep the heavy bolter for 125pts.
Yup, pretty sure. AV 11 is too fragile in 7th. You pay for those heavy weapons and they just get shot off the board. WS do a good enough job of laughing them off the table.
except, most of the time when you are running that, you have 3 AV13 predators, 3 AV13 dreadnaughts and or, multiple other AV 11/11/10 carrying around your tac squads. If your oppenents are shooting that much off the table T1, Check their rule books, only army I know that has that kind of firepower are tau, (well, scatbikes now, but other than scat bike cheese, not even eldar)
that and the lack of assault vehicles. Which IMOBA should have at least 1 cheaper one.
That would be a thing. For sure. But it's not. So we line up for the slaughter with jump packs or huddle in metal bawkses and be unable to assault.
its one reason I don't run assault marines anymore :( I still manage to assault often, just with cheaper units, that are more reliable. I actually run bikes in my BA instead of Jump infantry unless we agreed to run a fluff list. Which then, the ASM do fine because both lists are fluffy
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/19 18:01:26
Martel732 wrote: I used a lot of razorbacks in 5th. But now they are kinda junk. Especially with the assault changes.
you sure? for 145pts you get a 11/11/10 box, with, max range of 36", at that range 2 plasma shots, 1 TL plasma shot, and a 60" lascannon shot.
against most armies save scatbikes (which noone can match atm save certain lists) that's some good fire power. If you manage to get in 12 inches, (again, against most armies, not that hard with 12" move) you double your plasma shots.
or, you can take an assualt cannon, or just keep the heavy bolter for 125pts.
Yup, pretty sure. AV 11 is too fragile in 7th. You pay for those heavy weapons and they just get shot off the board. WS do a good enough job of laughing them off the table.
I find AV 11 to be adequate as long as you take advantage of LOS blocking terrain. Haven't had a problem with my razorbacks so far in this edition.
2015/04/19 18:04:22
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
That's not what I mean. I mean requirements for LOS blocking terrain. Because we effectively don't play with much. A bit in each deployment zone is about it.
2015/04/19 18:19:14
Subject: How do you guys like to run vanguard vets?
Martel732 wrote: That's not what I mean. I mean requirements for LOS blocking terrain. Because we effectively don't play with much. A bit in each deployment zone is about it.
Well, thats why you are having problems with razorbacks, you should have a lot more terrain on the table. In my local club a general rule of thumb is a couple of pieces of terrain that block LOS and that every 2 x 2 square part of the board has at least one good sized piece of terrain on it, like a forest, a hill, a ruin etc. It lets assault armies more viable.
, but there are ways to mediate it a little.