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There is RAW for what to do it is told you get to roll and need 6's

While it is true the part about selecting an unit cannot be done, because there is no unit that is a target by the RAW- you have specific permission to roll for you. Which is of course not an unit on the table.

Deciding you are allowed to pick an unit that is not a target is breaking the rule of selecting the unit, because the unit is not a target, as well as breaking the rule of what to do when an unit is not a target. It would also thirdly be breaking the rule of aegis as it clearly states the re-roll is for the unit, which means it can only by the rules given in the rulebook be taken for powers that have the unit as one of the powers targets, which is not the case for a blessing.

I see both sides of the Aegis issue but without a target it's hard to be sure what the DtW should be so I will stick to 6's only unless I'm targetted and then it will be based on the unit targetted with rerolls of 1's. Thanks for answering these questions and even providing a logical debate about the trickier ones guys. I don't feel too bad about not finding my answers on my own now that I see most of these issues are still contested.

Next Question: Is the Cypher Dataslate still usable in 7th? If so, just for my own confirmation, does that mean I can infiltrate 3x10 Chosen and Cypher as part of his Fallen Champions formation? Can he join another unit from a CAD of CSM and have them infiltrate with him as well? Example: Cypher joins a unit of 20 Chaos Marines before the game, can he have them all infiltrate with him in addition to the Chosen from his formation? Thanks again!

Updating the title of the thread as I go in hopes that if someone searches they will find the answers easier.

 BladeWalker wrote:
Next Question: Is the Cypher Dataslate still usable in 7th? If so, just for my own confirmation, does that mean I can infiltrate 3x10 Chosen and Cypher as part of his Fallen Champions formation? Can he join another unit from a CAD of CSM and have them infiltrate with him as well? Example: Cypher joins a unit of 20 Chaos Marines before the game, can he have them all infiltrate with him in addition to the Chosen from his formation? Thanks again!

Updating the title of the thread as I go in hopes that if someone searches they will find the answers easier.

The Dataslate is still valid, in the same way as a 6th edition Codex is still valid in 7th (as long as it hasn't been replaced).

However, you cannot join an IC with Infiltrate to a unit without Infiltrate during deployment (and a unit with it cannot be joined by an IC without). This was clarified / better worded in the FAQ for the main rulebook: http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf

Thank you, simply missed that in the FAQ. Makes sense! But the entire Fallen Champions formation gets Infiltrate correct?

Just Cypher having Hit and Run is enough for his unit to get it right? USR subtle changes since I really played last.

 BladeWalker wrote:
Thank you, simply missed that in the FAQ. Makes sense! But the entire Fallen Champions formation gets Infiltrate correct?

Can't help here sorry, don't have that Dataslate.

 BladeWalker wrote:
Just Cypher having Hit and Run is enough for his unit to get it right? USR subtle changes since I really played last.

Yes, just having a single model in the unit allows the unit to H&R. Note that you still use the highest Initiative in the unit, rather than only the model with H&R's.

Yes, they all have infiltrate. Its quite a fun formation, taking minimum squads of chosen with plasma and melta to just immediately feth up opponents....

 Grey Templar wrote:
The rules for vehicles and embarked passengers are what allows that to occur.

But your attempt to circumvent my logic is cute.

Still, concrete proof by RaW support that your assertion was incorrect.

Just making sure we all know that "Arriving by Deep Strike" does not = "Deep Strike Reserves".
Glad we agreed to it

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The rules for vehicles and embarked passengers are what allows that to occur.

But your attempt to circumvent my logic is cute.

Still, concrete proof by RaW support that your assertion was incorrect.

Just making sure we all know that "Arriving by Deep Strike" does not = "Deep Strike Reserves".
Glad we agreed to it

Except that "arriving by Deep Strike" does equal "arriving from Deep Strike Reserve" per the Deep Strike USR. "Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve" does not equal "arriving from Reserves", because Reserves and Deep Strike Reserve are not the same thing despite using the same word (Reserve).

Other examples where GW uses the same word yet with different meanings are:

Assault Cannons being Heavy weapons, not Assault weapons.

Heavy Flamers being Assault weapons, not Heavy weapons.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The rules for vehicles and embarked passengers are what allows that to occur.

But your attempt to circumvent my logic is cute.

Still, concrete proof by RaW support that your assertion was incorrect.

Just making sure we all know that "Arriving by Deep Strike" does not = "Deep Strike Reserves".
Glad we agreed to it

Except that "arriving by Deep Strike" does equal "arriving from Deep Strike Reserve" per the Deep Strike USR. "Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve" does not equal "arriving from Reserves", because Reserves and Deep Strike Reserve are not the same thing despite using the same word (Reserve).

Other examples where GW uses the same word yet with different meanings are:

Assault Cannons being Heavy weapons, not Assault weapons.

Heavy Flamers being Assault weapons, not Heavy weapons.

SJ

Although i have you on ignore, I feel that replying to this would be beneficial for this thread and explaining the concept of the Deep Strike rule as it seems many make the mistake you describe, where they assume that "arriving by Deep Strike" equals "arriving from Deep Strike Reserve".

The following set of statement are all true, and not mutually exclusive. You will need basic logic / maths for this:
- "A" is part of "B"
- Placing a unit that will arrive by Deep Strike in Reserve (and telling your opponent), makes it a Unit that is held in Deep Strike Reserve
- Any Unit that is arriving by Deep Strike, is a Unit that is Deep Striking.

However, the following are also true:
- "B" might not be part of "A"
- Units that are held in Deep Strike Reserve are not all units that will arrive by Deep Strike.
- Deep Striking Units can be Units that are not arriving by Deep Strike.

This is indeed the case for Drop Pods and occupants:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Blood angels codex:

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a Drop Pod. Is it held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

Rulebook:

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position.

Reading this, can you tell me exactly how a unit is "Arriving by Deep Strike"? Are you forced to "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"? Yes or No

As well as other transports that arrive by Deep Strike.

The occupants of a Blood Angel Drop Pod ARE in Deep Strike Reserve and they ARE Deep Striking.
However, they are NOT arriving by Deep Strike.
The Drop Pod is doing all 3 of those things, but the Tactical Squad inside (who do not have the Deep Strike USR, and who are not placed folowing the rules of "Arriving by Deep Strike") are not.

Hope i kept it clear and concise, but my conclusive statement stands:
Deep Strike Reserve=/=by Deep Strike=/=Deep Striking.

I'm sorry you have me on ignore, Blacktalon, although I can understand why based on our previous interactions. Which will probably remain given the following:

“In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

I marked the important passage, "Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)". While it can be interpreted that Reserves + Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve, the passage actually say that. It says Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve. We know this because not only is it printed in black and white, it is the only part of that paragraph the is not negated by other rules. Gate of Infinity and Skies of Fury both use the rules for Deep Strike without requiring the unit start in Reserve. Unit arriving via Drod Pod do not require the Deep Strike USR, as seen in the fiollowing BRB rule:

[quiote]“Deep Strike and Transports
Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).” iBooks.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The rules for vehicles and embarked passengers are what allows that to occur.

But your attempt to circumvent my logic is cute.

Still, concrete proof by RaW support that your assertion was incorrect.

Just making sure we all know that "Arriving by Deep Strike" does not = "Deep Strike Reserves".
Glad we agreed to it

Except that "arriving by Deep Strike" does equal "arriving from Deep Strike Reserve" per the Deep Strike USR. "Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve" does not equal "arriving from Reserves", because Reserves and Deep Strike Reserve are not the same thing despite using the same word (Reserve).

Other examples where GW uses the same word yet with different meanings are:

Assault Cannons being Heavy weapons, not Assault weapons.

Heavy Flamers being Assault weapons, not Heavy weapons.

SJ

considering the BRB says that deep strike reserves is arriving from reserves by deepstrike, your entire post on this topic has no actual basis in the rules or merit.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Deep Strike reserves is most undoubtedly arriving from reserves by deep strike, as per the rules, and in no place anywhere do the rules state that deep striking = arriving by deep strike reserves.

GOI does not state anything about reserves, but gives you permission to arrive by deep strike. Are you going to reserves first? Does it state you are arriving from deep strike reserves? No? Then you were never in reserves, and are not arriving from deep strike reserves when using GoI.

This is a really silly argument that leads nowhere.

Keep in mind more specific rules override general rules, right? So Deep Strike, as a rule, is the general rule for arriving by Deep Strike, and has the bit about "must being in reserves".

Gate of Infinity says the unit immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike. That's the more specific thing. How do you arrive using the rules for Deep Striking? We're told that in the Deep Strike rules. There is a section of the Deep Strike rule called "Arriving by Deep Strike." Follow the bulleted points.

Everything works as intended. Yay! We can go play our game now using a non-confusing rule that would literally only ever go multiple pages on YMDC, and no where else on the internet.

 SRSFACE wrote:
This is a really silly argument that leads nowhere.

Keep in mind more specific rules override general rules, right? So Deep Strike, as a rule, is the general rule for arriving by Deep Strike, and has the bit about "must being in reserves".

Gate of Infinity says the unit immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike. That's the more specific thing. How do you arrive using the rules for Deep Striking? We're told that in the Deep Strike rules. There is a section of the Deep Strike rule called "Arriving by Deep Strike." Follow the bulleted points.

Everything works as intended. Yay! We can go play our game now using a non-confusing rule that would literally only ever go multiple pages on YMDC, and no where else on the internet.

This is exactly how i see the rules too: Gate of Infinity calls upon the section of the Deep Strike rule called "Arriving by Deep Strike." Simple as.

But some would say that when you Deep Strike, you somehow use ALL the rules found in "Deep Strike". Which is debatable.
Others somehow argue that Deep Strike Reserves is the exact same thing as arriving by Deep Strike, but this is proven incorrect.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I marked the important passage, "Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)". While it can be interpreted that Reserves + Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve, the passage actually say that. It says Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve. We know this because not only is it printed in black and white, it is the only part of that paragraph the is not negated by other rules.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Per the BRB, a unit using Gate to arrive by Deep Strike did not do so from Reserves. Also per the BRB, Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve, as seen in other rules that trigger when a unit arrived from Deep Strike Reserves, which is the same as arriving by Deep Strike.

SJ

You are adding a meaning to that passage which is not there.
I already covered this in my post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
- Placing a unit that will arrive by Deep Strike in Reserve (and telling your opponent), makes it a Unit that is held in Deep Strike Reserve

You are correct, when you place a Unit in reserves, and it is going to arrive by Deep Strike, it is undoubtedly in Deep Strike Reserves.

But the following statement is also true:
- Units that are held in Deep Strike Reserve are not all units that will arrive by Deep Strike.

As proven by the Drop Pod rules, "Black and White":

 BlackTalos wrote:
Blood angels codex:

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

If you do intend to contend the matter of arriving "by Deep Strike" being equal to "Deep Strike Reserves", i will accept only a simple yes or no answer to this, before any reply from me or i feel like i'm wasting my time:
Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a (Blood Angels)Drop Pod. Is the Unit of Marines held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

Too bad English disagrees with you on that one fine point, Black. Other than that, I have no disagreement.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Too bad English disagrees with you on that one fine point, Black. Other than that, I have no disagreement.

SJ

Exactly. This really comes down to the rules of English grammar, which clearly show that Deep Strike = Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Too bad English disagrees with you on that one fine point, Black. Other than that, I have no disagreement.

SJ

Exactly. This really comes down to the rules of English grammar, which clearly show that Deep Strike = Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

Not really? English grammar shows that Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve. It does not show that Deep Strike + Reserves = Deep Strike Reserve.

SJ

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

I can't help but be shocked that some people think english grammar states this sentence means deep striking= the unit is always arriving from deep strike reserves.

It is clearly saying that if you have an unit in reserves and it is arriving by deep strike, that you tell your opponent that this is how it is arriving- this is sometimes called deep strike reserves.

It clearly does not state, arriving by deep strike is the same as arriving from reserves by deepstrike.

I don't know if people are trolling, or want to be able to use RoT with GoI so bad they are in complete denial about cheating,perhaps you can explain how the quoted text above deals with anything other than units that begin the game reserve? If you cannot explain it without cherry picking words out of the rules for deepstrike and mashing them together in a way they clearly are not written in the book, please do not bother.

To bad you did not bother to read the many threads on this Blaktoof, including this one, as your challenge has been already completed numerous times.

SJ

On the Deep Strike/GoI issue my TO is ruling that you can only use RoT after you arrive from Reserves. Not saying that carves it in stone, just in our neck of the woods it will be played that way.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
To bad you did not bother to read the many threads on this Blaktoof, including this one, as your challenge has been already completed numerous times.

SJ

So no then.

it's okay, I already knew it was no.

 BladeWalker wrote:
Thank you, simply missed that in the FAQ. Makes sense! But the entire Fallen Champions formation gets Infiltrate correct?

Just Cypher having Hit and Run is enough for his unit to get it right? USR subtle changes since I really played last.

This is correct.

Infiltrating Chosen is pretty nasty, btw. It's about as close as you can get to Sternguard drop-pods, just you have to kit them out with more points in weaponry. I'm personally trying to amass some Plasma Gunner chosen to infiltrate them and blow up some stuff, and then want to do the same thing but the squad would be all Melta-guns.

And as has already been answered by Quanar, yep on the Hit & Run USR. Cypher is really effective in a number of armies he can be taken in, such as alongside a bunch of Khorne Berserkers or alongside any Blood Angels. Gotta love H&R with Furious Charge units.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
Thank you, simply missed that in the FAQ. Makes sense! But the entire Fallen Champions formation gets Infiltrate correct?

Just Cypher having Hit and Run is enough for his unit to get it right? USR subtle changes since I really played last.

This is correct.

Infiltrating Chosen is pretty nasty, btw. It's about as close as you can get to Sternguard drop-pods, just you have to kit them out with more points in weaponry. I'm personally trying to amass some Plasma Gunner chosen to infiltrate them and blow up some stuff, and then want to do the same thing but the squad would be all Melta-guns.

And as has already been answered by Quanar, yep on the Hit & Run USR. Cypher is really effective in a number of armies he can be taken in, such as alongside a bunch of Khorne Berserkers or alongside any Blood Angels. Gotta love H&R with Furious Charge units.

Cypher is amazing for sure. He also has Shrouded for great cover on Turn 1 and then Eternal Warrior to soak some nasty shots. Interested to try him out with 3x10 Chosen, putting a Fist in each squad, making one 4x PG and the other 2 2xMG and 2xFlamer. All told it's 975 points and I will probably back it up with a Tzeentch daemon CAD.

Can you take just Formations as a Battle Forged army? Example: Could I play just the Fallen Champions formation as a Battle Forged army at 1000 pts?

After checking the rules for Battle-Forged, I suppose yes you could. It's it's own dataslate and the formation gives you benefits and everything. It's not unbound. There's no requirement that formation be taken alongside any other type of army as far as I can tell on the Cypher sheet.

Yes an army that is battleforged can just be made up of formations.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Too bad English disagrees with you on that one fine point, Black. Other than that, I have no disagreement.

SJ

Can't argue with rules, so "my English is best" is your current argument?

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you do intend to contend the matter of arriving "by Deep Strike" being equal to "Deep Strike Reserves", i will accept only a simple yes or no answer to this, before any reply from me or i feel like i'm wasting my time:
Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a (Blood Angels)Drop Pod. Is the Unit of Marines held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

I'll wait for that "Yes" or that "No", anything else is currently pointless if you're trying to argue RaW.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Too bad English disagrees with you on that one fine point, Black. Other than that, I have no disagreement.

SJ

Can't argue with rules, so "my English is best" is your current argument?

No, although attempting to reduce the argument to this might your way of trying to avoid an actual dialog.

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you do intend to contend the matter of arriving "by Deep Strike" being equal to "Deep Strike Reserves", i will accept only a simple yes or no answer to this, before any reply from me or i feel like i'm wasting my time:
Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a (Blood Angels)Drop Pod. Is the Unit of Marines held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

I'll wait for that "Yes" or that "No", anything else is currently pointless if you're trying to argue RaW.

A unit of Marines in a Drop Pod are held in Reserves, and will arrive via Deep Strike. This may trigger effects requiring the unit to arrive from Reserves, arrive by Deep Strike, using the Deep Strike rules, using the rules for Deep Strike, and/or arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

Reducing it to a "Yes" or "No" is a logical fallacy.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Too bad English disagrees with you on that one fine point, Black. Other than that, I have no disagreement.

SJ

Can't argue with rules, so "my English is best" is your current argument?

No, although attempting to reduce the argument to this might your way of trying to avoid an actual dialog.

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you do intend to contend the matter of arriving "by Deep Strike" being equal to "Deep Strike Reserves", i will accept only a simple yes or no answer to this, before any reply from me or i feel like i'm wasting my time:
Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a (Blood Angels)Drop Pod. Is the Unit of Marines held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

I'll wait for that "Yes" or that "No", anything else is currently pointless if you're trying to argue RaW.

A unit of Marines in a Drop Pod are held in Reserves, and will arrive via Deep Strike. This may trigger effects requiring the unit to arrive from Reserves, arrive by Deep Strike, using the Deep Strike rules, using the rules for Deep Strike, and/or arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

Reducing it to a "Yes" or "No" is a logical fallacy.

SJ

It's not a logical fallacy if it's written in the Rules....

Wow, you really do amaze me... Let me give you the RaW first, black and white, directly copied from the Codex:

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

Now try again:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a (Blood Angels)Drop Pod. Is the Unit of Marines held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

Being a tad bit douchie today, Talon? Pretty sure Drop Pod Assault say:

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in reserve and must enter play using the Deep Strike Rules.

Which happens to agree with the Deep Strike rules:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

I realize your hang up is on the underlined above equaling just the bolded, while I'm stating that the bolded is a separate concept from the italicized.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Being a tad bit douchie today, Talon? Pretty sure Drop Pod Assault say:

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in reserve and must enter play using the Deep Strike Rules.

Which happens to agree with the Deep Strike rules:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

I realize your hang up is on the underlined above equaling just the bolded, while I'm stating that the bolded is a separate concept from the italicized.

SJ

Do you own a copy of the Blood Angels Codex?

I quoted their RaW word for word:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Blood angels codex:

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

If you do intend to contend the matter of arriving "by Deep Strike" being equal to "Deep Strike Reserves", i will accept only a simple yes or no answer to this, before any reply from me or i feel like i'm wasting my time:
Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a (Blood Angels)Drop Pod. Is the Unit of Marines held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

It really is a shame that you cannot even attempt to read, what was it?
My very first post addressed to you.

As such, i'm done. Continue your antics on your own... the RaW has been quoted, you have been proven incorrect in your assumptions, and anyone still reading by this point must have come to their conclusions.
I shall never regret having 1 user in my ignore list. May you have a good day.