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Getting back into playing more now and coming up with lots of questions, between GW FAQ and ITC FAQ I have answered most of them. I may have easily overlooked the answer to these so thanks for patience!

1. I can shoot 4 weapons when Zooming with a Stormraven so can I shoot all 4 Missles? In other editions there was a limit but I see none in 7th?

2. With Rites of Teleportation can I Run and Shoot after using Gate of Infinity? Methinks no, but could not find a definitive answer. Basically is Deep Striking the same as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve with regards to RoT and Locator Beacons, etc?

Other questions are coming... need more coffee.

Thanks for any help!

1) Yes you can shoot all four missiles in one go. The one issue with fliers is they "can shoot up to four weapons" so if by some chance a flyer has more than 4 weapons it cannot snap shot them as that is shooting more than four weapons.

2) There is nothing in GoI that states they go to reserve or are arriving from deep strike reserve. Some people think that all deep strike = deep strike reserves, but this then brings forth that if that is the case the entire unit is required to have deep strike and had to begin the game in reserves to use deep strike, ie if the unit doesn't have deep strike and was not in reserves at the start of the game they can never use gate- which is silly. No major tournament rules that gate counts as deep strike reserve. You can try to argue it with your friends but there's more showing the unit is not going to / arriving from reserves when they gate.

I thought not on Gate with Rites but wanted to be sure. Thanks!

The answer to #2 is Yes.

This is because GoI says you act as if arriving by Deep Strike, which triggers everything necessary to use Rites of Teleportation. This is because the Deep Strike rule is VERY CLEAR that Arriving by Deep Strike is the definition of Deep Strike Reserves.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The answer to #2 is Yes.

This is because GoI says you act as if arriving by Deep Strike, which triggers everything necessary to use Rites of Teleportation. This is because the Deep Strike rule is VERY CLEAR that Arriving by Deep Strike is the definition of Deep Strike Reserves.

Um, yeah gonna have to disagree with the underlined, since the rules say that Deep Strike Reserves are when you put a unit in Reserves with the intention of Deep Striking them.

No it doesn't. Read it again carefully.

What you mean the part that starts "When placing a unit in reserves"?

Yes, that is the correct sentence. However you are reading which part modifies which incorrectly.


This is the full sentence.

When placing a unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)

There are actually 2 parts to this rule.

1) You must tell your opponent if a unit in reserves will be arriving by Deep Strike.

2) Deep Strike Reserves is the same as Arriving by Deep Strike.

The underlined section applies to the italicized section. The bolded section also applies, but they apply independently.

Ergo: Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of weather you were in normal reserves or not.

This is also the only place in the rules where Deep Strike Reserves is defined.



Also the Gate of Infinity rules are as follows,

Remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

You don't get to use some of the rules, you use all of the rules. That includes the fact you are arriving from Deep Strike Reserves if you Deep Strike.

Oh cool, so since you use all the rules, you made sure to start the unit in reserves, and told your opponent they would arrive by deep strike, right?

Because you cast the power and the power also says you "arrive immediately". What are you arriving from if not reserves? So the power obviously places you in reserves temporarily. I guess you might be required to tell your opponent they're going to be deep striking.

Alternately, the power simply doesn't work. But that isn't correct answer. So my way is what is correct because it doesn't result in a broken game.

 Grey Templar wrote:
So my way is what is correct because it doesn't result in a broken game.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You don't get to use some of the rules, you use all of the rules. That includes the fact you are arriving from Deep Strike Reserves if you Deep Strike.

I'm confused. Your way is correct because your way doesn't break the game. It just requires you to not use rules, you just said you had to use.

So which is it? Are you using all the rules, or are you only using some of the rules?

I showed you how it does actually use those rules.

You enter reserves because the power says you "arrive", which means you are arriving from reserves. Ergo you must have been placed in reserves.

As far as informing your opponent, that has been defacto achieved by casting the power, but you can also explicitly tell your opponent if you wish.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I showed you how it does actually use those rules.

You enter reserves because the power says you "arrive", which means you are arriving from reserves. Ergo you must have been placed in reserves.

As far as informing your opponent, that has been defacto achieved by casting the power, but you can also explicitly tell your opponent if you wish.

But did you start the game in reserves, on of the other requirements of Deep Strike?

I know all my units always start the game in reserves.

Its possible the power actually can only be used on units that began the game in reserves. However that isn't related to this rule query, that using GoI triggers Rites of Teleportation. Which it unequivocally does.

As has been pointed out in each of the previous threads on this subject, Deep Strike Reserves =/= Reserves. Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves. There are a number of abilities that use the Deep Strike rules that do not start with the unit in Reserves, two examples of which are Skies of Fury and Gate of Infinity.

Rites of Teleportation triggers when a unit arrives via Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike Reserves. Rites is also triggers by disembarking a zooming Stormraven via Skies of Fury, for the exact same reason.

SJ

Very interesting, I'm not seeking to game the system but I want to use a rule if it applies seeing that I give up ObSec for it. I will ask my TO and continue to allow RoT on any unit the hits the table from Deep Strike for home games.

Next query: Do Fortifications count as your models for the purposes of being tabled? Example: I have a Bastion empty on the board at the end of a game turn and nothing else (rest is in Reserve or dead). I still auto lose right?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ergo: Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of weather you were in normal reserves or not.

Demonstrably completely incorrect.

Blood angels codex:

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a Drop Pod. Is it held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

Rulebook:

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position.

Reading this, can you tell me exactly how a unit is "Arriving by Deep Strike"? Are you forced to "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"? Yes or No



Once you have a "Yes" or "No" for both of the above, can you explain to me how the Unit of Tactical Marines works in conjunction with both of those rules?
I mean, they do not have "Deep Strike" on their profile, they are inside a transport, must disembark upon arrival and this must be done after the Pod Arrives(by Deep Strike)?
I am curious to hear your point of view on this

 BladeWalker wrote:
Do Fortifications count as your models for the purposes of being tabled? Example: I have a Bastion empty on the board at the end of a game turn and nothing else (rest is in Reserve or dead). I still auto lose right?

A "Claimed" building (p112) is a unit in your army, and is on the table to count against Sudden Death Victory (p133).

 Quanar wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
Do Fortifications count as your models for the purposes of being tabled? Example: I have a Bastion empty on the board at the end of a game turn and nothing else (rest is in Reserve or dead). I still auto lose right?

A "Claimed" building (p112) is a unit in your army, and is on the table to count against Sudden Death Victory (p133).

Very helpful thanks! Should the enemy claim the building I'm in trouble. How does this work with a Skyshield landing pad since you can't "enter" it like other buildings?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ergo: Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of weather you were in normal reserves or not.

Demonstrably completely incorrect.

Blood angels codex:

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

Easy Question: A Unit of Tactical Marines is embarked upon a Drop Pod. Is it held in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes or No

Rulebook:

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position.

Reading this, can you tell me exactly how a unit is "Arriving by Deep Strike"? Are you forced to "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"? Yes or No



Once you have a "Yes" or "No" for both of the above, can you explain to me how the Unit of Tactical Marines works in conjunction with both of those rules?
I mean, they do not have "Deep Strike" on their profile, they are inside a transport, must disembark upon arrival and this must be done after the Pod Arrives(by Deep Strike)?
I am curious to hear your point of view on this

The rules for vehicles and embarked passengers are what allows that to occur.

But your attempt to circumvent my logic is cute.

 BladeWalker wrote:
How does this work with a Skyshield landing pad since you can't "enter" it like other buildings?

A Skyshield is not a Building (it's a "Unique" {unique pain in the... ahem}), and so cannot be claimed. Buildings have armour values and, often, transport capacity.

 Quanar wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
How does this work with a Skyshield landing pad since you can't "enter" it like other buildings?

A Skyshield is not a Building (it's a "Unique" {unique pain in the... ahem}), and so cannot be claimed. Buildings have armour values and, often, transport capacity.

Unique meaning it won't count as one of my models for purposes of Sudden Death?

 BladeWalker wrote:
Unique meaning it won't count as one of my models for purposes of Sudden Death?

Correct, just like an Aegis Defence Line wouldn't count either - it's a purchased piece of terrain, but only a Building can be claimed (such as a Bastion, Fortress 'o Redemption etc.), those Vengeance turret things would also count as they count as 'claimed' even with no transport capacity (and therefore, no chance of changing allegiance during the game).

Ahhh I see now! Looks like a Bastion with Comms relay can keep me in the game and with good reserve rolls even while empty. Thanks!

Next question (really appreciate this): Just confirming that the Aegis gives me a reroll of 1's to Deny the Witch even on powers that don't target me. Example: Sneaksie Elvsies cast Invisibility on their Wraithknight, I can Deny on a 6 with re-rolls of 1's correct?

On Maelstrom: You normally get the points for your cards at the end of each of your turns correct? Getting them at the end of the game turn is a ITC adjustment as I understand it.

Many thanks!

 BladeWalker wrote:
Just confirming that the Aegis gives me a reroll of 1's to Deny the Witch even on powers that don't target me. Example: Sneaksie Elvsies cast Invisibility on their Wraithknight, I can Deny on a 6 with re-rolls of 1's correct?

Hum, tricky, fairly sure this came up when the Codex was released but I can't remember the conclusion it came to. I'd have said that since you never pick a unit to Deny with if it's a Blessing, it wouldn't gain a benefit. But a re-roll is not strictly speaking a "modifier" (a modifier is defined as a plus, minus, division or multiplier). Bear in mind that this would have an effect on any army that brought even a single allied GK to the game.

{Edit} Dug up a pair of threads on the issue:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612182.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612880.page

 BladeWalker wrote:
On Maelstrom: You normally get the points for your cards at the end of each of your turns correct? Getting them at the end of the game turn is a ITC adjustment as I understand it.

Yes, Tactical Objectives are scored at the end of your turn. I've never heard of the ITC ruling, but could see it's use (the mission where you can steal each other's "Secure Objective" cards, for example).

 BladeWalker wrote:
Ahhh I see now! Looks like a Bastion with Comms relay can keep me in the game and with good reserve rolls even while empty. Thanks!

Next question (really appreciate this): Just confirming that the Aegis gives me a reroll of 1's to Deny the Witch even on powers that don't target me. Example: Sneaksie Elvsies cast Invisibility on their Wraithknight, I can Deny on a 6 with re-rolls of 1's correct?

On Maelstrom: You normally get the points for your cards at the end of each of your turns correct? Getting them at the end of the game turn is a ITC adjustment as I understand it.

Many thanks!

You are not using aegis to deny powers that do not target anything, or do not target units that have a model with aegis.

To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power.

if the power does not target an unit you cannot select an unit to deny.

If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops) you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls – you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points.

Aegis
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls results of 1 when making Deny the Witch tests.

the rule clearly calls out the unit with the special rule has to be making the deny test, if you do not get to select an unit to deny with[because none of your units were targets of a psychic power] you cannot get the re-roll.

Regarding buildings, I would like to point out that per page 133 of the small rulebook, under Terrain & Victory Conditions:

Do not include Citadel scenery models when awarding Victory Points or determining if a player has any units on the battlefield.

@blaktoof, One might argue that "follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls" still has you select one of your Psyker units and that unit is still making the Deny the Witch attempt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Regarding buildings, I would like to point out that per page 133 of the small rulebook, under Terrain & Victory Conditions:

Do not include Citadel scenery models when awarding Victory Points or determining if a player has any units on the battlefield.

Man that is a stupid rule. If I buy an imperial bastion for my army its not worth VP to my opponent. Ha. Oh, but If I use scratch-built-terrain, as defined by the BRB, then its a different story. Silly game.

The flaw with that is:

How are you selecting a unit to deny when you are only allowed to select an unit that was a target of the power. You cannot, so powers without a target can never be denied by selecting an unit that was a target of the power, because the target was none of the units.

The counter point would be that it is impossible to "follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls" as the process requires you choose one of your pskyer units that was a target. We don't have permission not to do that. We only have permission to not apply modifiers to our dice rolls. Attempting to adhere to the RAW breaks the game. Instead we have to infer a change in the process beyond what the RAW is giving us. You assume, and yes it is an assumption, that this new and necessary change is you simply do not select any psyker. Wouldn't it make more sense to make the less drastic change of you choosing a psyker unit, regardless of it being the target?