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 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

Horus fought his way to terra, brought death and doom to anyone who stood in his way turned half his brothers to Chaos killed the Primarch of the blood angels and then proceeded to cripple a god like super psyker, turning the emperor into a tomato.
Abaddon tried the same thing and got whipped by Cadians.
Even if it was the will of the chaos gods that is still damn impressive

In 200 years, Horus conquered the known galaxy. In 10,000 years, Abaddon hasn't even managed to fully open the door of his prison.


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 Wyzilla wrote:

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all.

Horus definitely was close to conquering the Imperium. The only part he didn't conquer was the part before the Emperor found him. Then Horus conquered the rest.

After that, he went traitor and didn't do as much conquering.

Of course, during the Great Crusade Horus never did get into a single conflict where his forces weren't at a substantial material, technological, and manpower advantage. After he lost that advantage, he did certainly seem much less effective.

GW needs to man up and accept the Eye of Terror campaign as canon. Abaddon's 13th crusade took Cadia. Then they need to have another big event where Terra is besieged, like it hints will happen in the latest CSM codex. Of course, this time GW can't let it be player decided and will have to have the Imperium pull a victory out of their behinds through some Primarch's return, the Emperor ascending to full godhood, or something, so they don't lose their biggest faction. And then we'd get a restructuring of the status quo, with all the factions still preserved but a few big changes to the special characters and setting.

Not perfect, but at least the story would DO SOMETHING. And Abaddon would be less easy to make fun of.

I'm pretty happy with the idea of moving the time line up a bit, let Abby do some damage. It'd be interesting if a primarch could come back, if it is written well. Most primarchs that left are supposedly coming back only in the end times, and I hope 40k hasn't reached that yet (though it kinda is end times in itself right now). Maybe a bunch of orks swarm the gate, making it an orky fortress on Cadia, and stopping major chaos reinforcements from helping Abby out at Terra. (Really unlikely GW would make Cadia orky though)

Goge Vandire legacy was bigger.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Well to be fair Zeus' legacy was mostly with the hundreds of woman he slept with/ creating terrible monsters for the world to deal with While Hercules was more about rescuing damsels in distress and other innocents from said monsters.

You mean his legacy was more being the ruler of the Gods


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 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

Nope just mortally wounded the emperor and killed almost every loyal primarch while leaving the traitor ones living. Not close at all just basically right on the very edge.

Also Wyz the chaos wanting him to lose thing. Is that canon or theory? It used to just be theory not even hinted at in the literature did something change? The Kabal(one of them) are the only ones who said if Horus wins chaos loses, but I don't remember that being verified at any point.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I'm pretty happy with the idea of moving the time line up a bit, let Abby do some damage. It'd be interesting if a primarch could come back, if it is written well. Most primarchs that left are supposedly coming back only in the end times, and I hope 40k hasn't reached that yet (though it kinda is end times in itself right now). Maybe a bunch of orks swarm the gate, making it an orky fortress on Cadia, and stopping major chaos reinforcements from helping Abby out at Terra. (Really unlikely GW would make Cadia orky though)

Ghazghkull is currently looking for another scrap to get the orks involved in and there is no scrap going on like the black crusades. Ghazzy vs. Abaddon vs. Creed. Done well, this could advance the story and finally give Abaddon a legacy he can be proud of.

Doesnt cadia have some necron pylon tech that keeps the Eye from expanding? If abbadon wins cadia on the ground and trashes these things the eye would expand to consume much more of the galaxy, giving Abbadon and his allies that much more leverage against the IoM. If GW did decide to take the results of the EoT campaign as cannon wouldn't that effectively cave in the imperium? Having a gaping, un-conquerable hole in the middle of your empire where enemy forces are constantly assaulting from does tend to put a damper on things.

jakejackjake wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Well to be fair Zeus' legacy was mostly with the hundreds of woman he slept with/ creating terrible monsters for the world to deal with While Hercules was more about rescuing damsels in distress and other innocents from said monsters.

You mean his legacy was more being the ruler of the Gods


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chazz huggins wrote:
You're high Horus came way closer to conquering the IOM than all of abaddon's crusades put together. Allso the Primarch's united countless worlds under the IOM.

Horus never came close to conquering the Imperium- not at all. His entire campaign was a ploy by Chaos, the gods never wanted him to win.

Nope just mortally wounded the emperor and killed almost every loyal primarch while leaving the traitor ones living. Not close at all just basically right on the very edge.

Also Wyz the chaos wanting him to lose thing. Is that canon or theory? It used to just be theory not even hinted at in the literature did something change? The Kabal(one of them) are the only ones who said if Horus wins chaos loses, but I don't remember that being verified at any point.

Pandorax. The Cabal has and always will be full of gak, which isn't surprising considering their contents. The Horus Heresy was rigged from the start, and Horus was just supposed to wound the Emperor enough to put him on the throne. He never was going to kill him, Chaos saw to that.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
We''ll stop insulting Failbaddon as soon as you stop calling us ultrasmurfs, and acknowledge our superiority as Space Marines!

Yeah, you Ultrasmurfs deserve your mockery. Stuck up little . Other Chapters do exist you know.

Abaddon will always be Failbaddon!!!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Goge Vandire legacy was bigger.

What legacy is that? He inspired the creation of a faction nobody plays or cares about except a rabid few who pollute every unrelated thread with some whinge about aforementioned uncared about and unplayed faction?

Nice legacy.

On topic: Abaddon commands more now than Horus did 10k years ago. He's still alive, isn't crying alone on some daemon world, and represents the greatest threat to the Imperium.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Well, Chaos won on the ground, but the Imperium won in space.

So he wasn't ever going to get to Terra, but he was going to be able to get out of the Eye of Terror...

The funny thing is by current fluff chaos winning the ground war is actually a loss for Abaddon; he wants to throw the path from The Eye to Terra into a state of constant, terrible war in order to ensure his daemonic allies are able to manifest at will without the need for ritual or sorcery.

A win for Abaddon by current fluff would actually be a stalemate in the ground war, but being able to spread the ground war to other systems.

PS On the other hand, having read the second page, perhaps winning the ground war is good as it will give him a chance to destroy the pylons holding the eye at bay? Didn't he want to use his blackstone fortresses to do this though? Which I guess will be difficult if he lost the space war for the system.

PPS someone else mentioned the details for the first 12 crusades were thin which made it appear that Abaddon was always failing; I'm sure there has actually been details for some of the crusades for a long time; the destruction of that guy and his fortress. Finding the sword and so on were always a part of Abaddon's fluff, right?

And didn't the 2nd ed codex only go up to 11? 12 was added with Battlefleet Gothic, which was a space crusade aimed at capturing the 6 Blackstone Fortresses (he captured three but lost one on his way back to the eye I believe).

MarsNZ wrote:
What legacy is that?

Huge changes to how the Administratum, Ministorum, Assassinorum, Inquisition, and High Lords work.

On topic: Abaddon commands more now than Horus did 10k years ago. He's still alive, isn't crying alone on some daemon world, and represents the greatest threat to the Imperium.

Your absolutely right. He DOES command more than Horus did, and he still hasn't made a reasonable dent in the Imperium.

If Horus was around right now instead of Failbaddon then the Imperium would be on its knees and chaos would be everywhere. The only thing that stopped Horus was the Emperor himself ( which of course he also managed to kill his greatest god-warrior son, and mortally wound the Emperor so by your logic Horus actually had a huge victory.)

What legacy is that? He inspired the creation of a faction nobody plays or cares about except a rabid few who pollute every unrelated thread with some whinge about aforementioned uncared about and unplayed faction?

Abbadon has had access to superweapons, a larger army, more understanding/ time spent with chaos and he STILL hasn't come close to the impact Horus has had, and he never will the way GW is going.

Talk about rabid fans defending their faction.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
What legacy is that?

Huge changes to how the Administratum, Ministorum, Assassinorum, Inquisition, and High Lords work.

The Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition was created after his reign to monitor the Ecclesiarchy and search for any future heretics.

Abaddon is ultimately a silly git with a topknot and some tryhard Lore made by a company desperately trying to get them to take a Villain who cannot succeed anymore than any comic book villain can seriously when ultimately; he's still a silly git with a stupid hair and daddy issues and a god awful model.

He can have all the tryhard lore to pump up his reputation that he wants, but he'll never be as cool looking as Archaon and because of the way the setting is set up, he'll never be half the man Horus or Archaon ever were.



This is a badass Chaos Lord.



This is a Dork.

 the Signless wrote:
The Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition was created after his reign to monitor the Ecclesiarchy and search for any future heretics.

Yeah. It was created because of him. Is that not the meaning of legacy? (Genuine question, not a native speaker here)

In a way, a legacy is what they left behind, so his legacy could be the Ecclesiarchy.

No, the Ecclesiarchy was present before him.

Lol so some Black Crusades add up to more than the Great Crusade which reunited most of lost humanity?

That might just be sementic, but Abbadon cannot have a legacy yet for he his not dead or even about to be. A legacy is by definition what you leave behind you when you pass away (or at least leave from a particular lifestyle or work). Horus has a legacy and ironnicaly Abbadon is part of it, just like Horus himself his part of the legacy of the Emperor.

by the very nature of being a traitor, outlaw, and chaos warlord, that fact that he is still around to do allo f those thing after 10000 years is a legacy unto itself. Him, Ahriman, Typhus, and to a lesser extent Lucious and kharn are on equal footing with him and this point, despite that abaddon has a larger following than the others. I think by Legacy you mean Impact on the galaxy. from a certain point yes, because he has done more than horus or any other primarchs by simple factors of time, but I would say from another point of view no because the magnitude of the events of the heresy and acts of the primarchs over shadow all the events of the subsequent 10000 years.

but the question is kind of moot. as Abbadon wouldn't be able to do what he is doing without horus or the other primarchs,

Tbh the first time I was reading about warhammer fluff and was getting addicted to chaos and learning everything about them, I thought that the first 12 crusades were actually designed by abbadon to succeed and lead up to his 13th one instead of him failing 12 timesXD. Just made a lot more sense when I first read of the crusades until I saw that everyone said he just ended up falling flat on his face everytime. Still though abaddon is more of the tough BA leader that horus was with manipulating and manoeuvring the largest remaining groups of chaos space marines. Anyone who gets in his way he bullies or 'persuades' into joining him and is elusive enough to get the chaos gods to tag along too. He's not a primarch so he obviously won't be able to match them. But he's the only thing that holds all that remains of chaos's heavy hitter and without him they'd probably not be much of a problem for the IOM.

 GKTiberius wrote:
by the very nature of being a traitor, outlaw, and chaos warlord, that fact that he is still around to do allo f those thing after 10000 years is a legacy unto itself. Him, Ahriman, Typhus, and to a lesser extent Lucious and kharn are on equal footing with him and this point, despite that abaddon has a larger following than the others. I think by Legacy you mean Impact on the galaxy. from a certain point yes, because he has done more than horus or any other primarchs by simple factors of time, but I would say from another point of view no because the magnitude of the events of the heresy and acts of the primarchs over shadow all the events of the subsequent 10000 years.

but the question is kind of moot. as Abbadon wouldn't be able to do what he is doing without horus or the other primarchs,

I actually think Typhus and Kharn have a greater legacy than Abaddon. Yes, they retconned Abaddon's 12 failed Crusades, but that still doesn't make him seem like the biggest threat to the IoM.

Abbaddon is a fantastic fighter and bully, but other than that he falls fairly short. He is not a great general. Even at the TT he is a monster-fighter, but poffers no additional aid to his army. Right now he seems to be a guy walking around collecting amazing trophies but never doing much like a level 30+ char in Fallout 2 due to the recent change in fluff. Of course I'm aware of that the IOM throws anything they have at him, and the Warp makes simple logistics for him impossible, but still he seems to be amazing as a failure as general, but then again GW never seem to want to paint him as a very competent general even during the HH-novels.

 jreilly89 wrote:
they retconned Abaddon's 12 failed Crusades

"Abaddon has led twelve Black Crusades against the Imperium. Some have been great invasions of whole Legions of the lost and the damned, others have been vicious raids with only a few companies of the most deadly Chaos Space Marines at his command. Each attack has sent the Imperium reeling and ravaged worlds close to the Eye of Terror. The High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago."

"Abaddon dreams of forging a diabolic empire of his own from the blazing ruins of the shattered Imperium. Each world, each city destroyed, is a step closer to wiping the canvas clean so he can make his mark upon the galaxy."

"Abaddon the Despoiler, most feared adversary of the Imperium, has slowly but surely marshalled the forces of countless Traitor Legions to the point where he stands on the brink of challenging the Emperor himself as Warmaster Horus did before him."

To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I feel like GW's trying way too hard to make Abaddon respectable when I will never respect him until he shaves his stupid top knot and puts on a big horned helmet and a human skin cape like a proper chaos lord. :V

 Kain wrote:
I feel like GW's trying way too hard to make Abaddon respectable when I will never respect him until he shaves his stupid top knot and puts on a big horned helmet and a human skin cape like a proper chaos lord. :V

If I ever break down and by that damned model I will be converting and adding a helmet. I Don't wanna see the face of any of my soldiers. Also, the top knot is stupid.

 jreilly89 wrote:


To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.


"12 failures" is nothing to do with retcon. It is something the playerbase invented.

I agree. The previous 12 crusades were not endgame moves. They were accomplishing specific goals. Taking Terra was not the goal of any of the previous 12 crusades, so to say because he didn't do that, it was a failed mission would be like saying because the invasion of Normandy didn't immediately result in the fall of Berlin, it was a complete failure.