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If you want a balance between the WS/BS 2 and 3, why not make it an upgrade for the unit, much like in the Renegade and Heretics list? They are by default WS/BS 2, but can take 'Militia Training' to upgrade them.

You could borrow further from the list and also make armour an optional upgrade - so you could have a mass rabble of untrained fanatics and pilgrims armed with little more than improvised weaponry and a prayer, or you could have a militia or a team of self-proclaimed witch hunters who have actually trained themselves and kitted themselves out with semi-decent equipment.

I am considering providing them the "Militia training" option to increase it to BS:3 (if I'm not mistaken, the upgrade only provides a +1 BS, without a +1 WS, at 10 points flat) while keeping WS: 3. The reason for this is mainly because I find WS: 2 too much of a nerf as it renders them virtually worthless for an offensive close combat unit. I'm also hesitant on giving them "Militia training" as that's a "Renegades and Heretics" army trait. It would feel a bit like giving "Act of faith" to a unit in a different army, I feel. It's why I had refrained from giving the unit access to "Chaos marks"-like options.

 kingbobbito wrote:
If a commissar saw a rank and file soldier picking up the bolter of a fallen astartes, would anyone even blink twice if he shot the guy on the spot?

I am pretty sure he'd be executed as a mutant before that even happened, given that mortal humans can't lift Astartes weapons.

mr. peasant wrote:
I am considering providing them the "Militia training" option to increase it to BS:3 (if I'm not mistaken, the upgrade only provides a +1 BS, without a +1 WS, at 10 points flat) while keeping WS: 3. The reason for this is mainly because I find WS: 2 too much of a nerf as it renders them virtually worthless for an offensive close combat unit. I'm also hesitant on giving them "Militia training" as that's a "Renegades and Heretics" army trait. It would feel a bit like giving "Act of faith" to a unit in a different army, I feel. It's why I had refrained from giving the unit access to "Chaos marks"-like options.

They should be WS 2. They should not be higher than that, whether you think it is a nerf or not, that is the way it is.

If you want to make them more competitive then, give them options and upgrades to do so. And not power weapons etc. Give them a fanatical zealot character option who can provide them with hatred, or preferred enemy (xenos) or rage (maybe one turn per game), preachers as well.

Is WS 2 actually that big of a nerf? All it'd mean is that guardsmen are better than them. It would have no effect vs marines, orks, necrons, eldar. Against stuff WS5 and above they would struggle, but that's rightfully so, because at that point we're talking marine HQs, deathwing knights, etc.

The guy wants to make them effective but isn't accepting what they would actually be used for in the fluff. Are you really going to rely on a bunch of religious fanatics to go toe to toe with the renegade guard? No, no you're not, you're going to use them to overwhelm them by numbers, and use your own guard for surgical strikes or clean up duty once the fanatics have worn the enemy out.

The imperium cares not for it's citizens, it cares even less for it's citizens that can be used as an asset, they are just meat for the grinder. If they had 1 million cultists and one regiment of guard at their disposal. They could either choose option:

A) that they could either spend a few years training and millions (billions?) or credits equipping to form an army to take on the renegade forces on the adjacent planet + one regiment of already trained guard, as back up to the future invasion, risking the enemy growing stronger.

or

B) They estimate that the enemy forces have a current ammo supply to deal with roughly 1 millions enemies in a short space of time. They throw the 1 million cultists at the grinder to wear the enemies ammo, moral and energy down, and then send in the trained guard regiment to mop up the enemy or retake strategic locations, such as the factories, totally breaking the will and back of the enemy forces, leading to them simply arresting and executing them.

The imperium are taking option B), all day, every day.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The imperium cares not for it's citizens, it cares even less for it's citizens that can be used as an asset, they are just meat for the grinder.

What are a million lives in an empire numbering in the quadrillions, eh?

Pocket change

It also strikes me that if you want to take religious Guard, why not just ally in AM?

I like the idea of Imperial Cultists as a separate unit, but I think they are better suited to being a rabble of disorganised fanatics who drag enemies down in melee through sheer numbers and zeal.

Interestingly enough, that's the very reason why I'm so against the WS: 2, BS: 2 recommendation. If I wanted Conscripts, I'd taken an IG ally, rather than arbitrarily changing the stats of an existing unit.

If you went and got a random sample of the population, say 1000. How many of those people would be trained and proficient in hand to hand combat and shooting as your every day soldier?

1 or 2 both, maybe a couple of dozen max for either of the two.

They are not going to be any better than conscripts. Heck, there's an argument they should be WS & BS 1, let alone 2. Even Str 2, as their is a large chance as a majority they won't be physically conditioned at all either.

I think you should take conscripts, not alter the stat lines, and look at changing their equipment and giving some special rules to reflect their nutcase'ness.

As repeated multiple times, Cultists are not a random sample of the population. Those wwould be civilians.

My rationale is pretty straightforward - crunch > fluff when it comes to balancing units. The latter can easily be played around in order to explain things. For instance, all I need to do is prefix "Cultist" with the adjective "Death" and suddenly their stats and wargear are now magically perfect or possibly even underpowered.

Moreover, there needs to be a very compelling reason to change the statline of an existing unit. Thus far, no one's really given me any logic that I can work with. For instance, some like Option A needs to be changed because Unit B already exists in the army to fulfill Role C, or because it only costs D points which is cheap/expensive relative to Unit E in Army F that is deemed as a reasonable benchmark to compare against with respect to balance.

And has been repeated several times, Imperial cultists are not the same as chaos cultists. Chaos cultists are more along the lines of terrorists, imperial cultists are more along the lines of poorly equipped militia, relying on the god emperor to see them through the battle and protect them. AM conscripts should be able to deal with them unless the cultists are in huge quantities, they haven't got the equipment or skill to cope.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And has been repeated several times, Imperial cultists are not the same as chaos cultists. Chaos cultists are more along the lines of terrorists, imperial cultists are more along the lines of poorly equipped militia, relying on the god emperor to see them through the battle and protect them. AM conscripts should be able to deal with them unless the cultists are in huge quantities, they haven't got the equipment or skill to cope.

Please cite your evidence. "Cultist" is a specific game term and as far as I'm aware, there's never been an Imperium-aligned Cultist unit in the game before. The closest are those hailing from the various death cults, who are also available to the Sororitas, who are at WS: 5. Incidentally, these cultists also run around with two Power swords each despite not being officially backed by any Imperial organisation.

... so Joe-shmoe from the ecclesiarchy?

mr. peasant wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And has been repeated several times, Imperial cultists are not the same as chaos cultists. Chaos cultists are more along the lines of terrorists, imperial cultists are more along the lines of poorly equipped militia, relying on the god emperor to see them through the battle and protect them. AM conscripts should be able to deal with them unless the cultists are in huge quantities, they haven't got the equipment or skill to cope.

Please cite your evidence. "Cultist" is a specific game term and as far as I'm aware, there's never been an Imperium-aligned Cultist unit in the game before. The closest are those hailing from the various death cults, who are also available to the Sororitas, who are at WS: 5. Incidentally, these cultists also run around with two Power swords each despite not being officially backed by any Imperial organisation.

Both "zealots" and "Fraternis Militia" have existed in previous editions as units. They are essentially imperial cultists who instead of worshipping dark gods worship a guy on a golden toilet. No difference. what they are fanatical about is on opposite ends of the spectrum but the manner they act on it is essentially the same as are their value as a combat asset.

What they lack in training they try to make up for in numbers and their own hatred/zealotry and belief in their cause.

They are bat-sh*t crazy fodder troops, and that's the fun of them. If I want trained soldiers I'll play imperial Guard...

 CT GAMER wrote:
Both "zealots" and "Fraternis Militia" have existed in previous editions as units.

But weren't they WS: 3, BS: 3 with easy access to Exterminators? Unfortunately, it was a little bit before my time. However, that was the impression I got based on 1d4chan whilst I was researching for this unit, as well as the Fandexes I looked up that were based off the old Witch Hunter codex prior to the new Sororitas one. Does anyone have a copy of White Dwarf 304?

Thank you.

Anyway, the guy can make whatever unit he wants, just that if he came to a game and asked me to use them, I'd flat out refuse due to them being ridiculous as he currently wants them.

And the cults you are referring too were 'death-cults' they are totally different to what you were proposing. They are trained to be a weapon in the name of the god emperor, they are elite, and are more more expensive than a few points per model.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Anyway, the guy can make whatever unit he wants, just that if he came to a game and asked me to use them, I'd flat out refuse due to them being ridiculous as he currently wants them.

To which case, I'd have to respect said decision. Though, some arguments are less sensible than others. For instance, I don't understand how a unit's name affects its balance or game mechanics whatsoever.


On a separate note, I've managed to track down a copy of the old Zealots unit, as made by Games Workshop in White Dwarf #304. I can now confirm that according to Games Workshop, Zealots were indeed WS: 3. BS: 3 and that 1-in-every-5 models could take an Eviscerator.

Yeah, they are labelled as ex military men in the fluff, or fighters in general. In which case, I wouldn't have much of a problem with them. I'm a fluff player, so your standard imperial civvy isn't WS3 BS3 to me, ex imperial guard vets, covens of religious fanatics who are trained for war etc would have those stats though. But, they are just going to be imperial guardsmen rule wise.

I seriously think you should make huge mobs that are reliant upon multiple characters within them to deal damage if you want a unit that isn't just a suicide/hinderance intended to die unit. Absolutely loads of 3pt, no range weapon WS2 troops, with option to upgrade 1 in 5 to a specialist character, along the lines of inquisitor henchmen, so the ex vet turned fanatic with a Str x2 warhammer (not ap 2 thunder hammer though), the priest who gives the unit special rules, the redemptionist who is bristled with blamed based weapons, warrior monks who have chain flails, religious bezerkers who inspire the troops but can also be a danger to them in their blood lust, penal legionares who can accept challenges and blow themselves up as a special attack.

Just think whacky and outside the box, but keep the majority of them on the low scale of ability, they are just bodies that can be augmented to attack better by some characters, and are just ablative shots for others depending on how you field them. And the unit should definitely be minimum 20, up to 50 and no transports. They should walk upon their enemies, singing hymns to the emperor with huge banners or symbols to inspire their allies, and make their enemies fear them.

Kroot used to have Eviscerators. If you go back far enough, Orks had bolters.

I really don't know what you're trying to achieve with this. You say they'd transport themselves and be well-trained (better than Conscripts) and well-arrmed (with the explanation being "because time to prepare, plus rich people joined in"). You want an unsanctioned group of well-equipped and well-trained Imperial zealots who roam around space looking for a fight (and tend to coincidentally arrive where there are Sisters). So just the Imperial Guard, then, or an Imperial equivalent to the Blood Pact?

EDIT: This thread is a little older than I thought. Still first page, so it's not terribly awful to post in (sorry).

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They shouldn't be WS3/BS3. These guys are wild fanatics, not a trained military force. They shouldn't have access to power weapons and storm shields either. They just don't hand that kind of gear out to scrubs. They shouldn't have frag grenades either.

Having said that, they should have some rather obsurd rules to make up for the fact they don't really have anything.

Oh, definitely throwable molotov cocktails.

would they be trained in how to use Frag grenades? Obviously you pull the pin and throw it, but how does that mean you strike at init when going through cover. I see cultists, IoM or Chaos as just charging in like a disorderly mob. Take away the grenades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
My implementation of this concept was based on Conscripts and was WS/BS2 for 3ppm.

but with easy access to Fearless and great weapons?

I dont see why they should have such great weapons. Chaos cultists get 1 special weapon per 10. It's either a flamer or a heavy stubber. That's it. I cannot think of a reason why IoM religious cultists would be armed to the teeth.

Also a blanket 15 points for flakk armor seems excessively good.


I understand CSM Cultists arent the best unit in the game, but you are making a unit that does their purpose but is flat better. Frag grenades, stormshields, flakk armor, grenade launchers, cheap access to hatred, cheap access to fearless. Chaos cultists get the ability to be marked, which is a terrible waste of points. Not seeing the fair and balance here.