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To the observant, there's something of a Sororitas fan unit craze of late. With that in mind, I figured I'd jump on the bandwagon. Specifically, my idea is to fill the current gap in the Sororitas codex for an effective tar pit, as well as perhaps a close combat unit of the "death by a thousand cuts" variety. With that in mind, I thought of introducing Imperial Cultists. Feel free to comment, critique and suggest:

IMPERIAL CULTISTS

Lore


Faction: Adeptus Sororitas
Force organisation: Troop
Points: 40
Composition: 10 Cultists
Unit type: Infantry. Missionary is Infantry (Character)

Stats


Wargear


Special rules: Fearless (Missionary only)

Options



Missionary Paths



Cultist weapons list

Renegades and Heretics from ia13

 Filch wrote:
Renegades and Heretics from ia13

...

 Filch wrote:
Renegades and Heretics from ia13

Don't think Renegades & Heretics have access to "Cultists" per say (though they do have a similar analogue). I'm also pretty sure that the army is Chaos aligned.

My implementation of this concept was based on Conscripts and was WS/BS2 for 3ppm.

They shouldn't be WS3/BS3. These guys are wild fanatics, not a trained military force. They shouldn't have access to power weapons and storm shields either. They just don't hand that kind of gear out to scrubs. They shouldn't have frag grenades either.

Having said that, they should have some rather obsurd rules to make up for the fact they don't really have anything.

Oh, definitely throwable molotov cocktails.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They shouldn't be WS3/BS3. These guys are wild fanatics, not a trained military force. They shouldn't have access to power weapons and storm shields either. They just don't hand that kind of gear out to scrubs. They shouldn't have frag grenades either.

Having said that, they should have some rather obsurd rules to make up for the fact they don't really have anything.

Oh, definitely throwable molotov cocktails.

That had been my initial thought too - specifically, to give them WS: 3, BS: 3 - for the reason stated above. However, "Cultist" - as a model and unit - already exists and those were the stats for the model as per the various Chaos codexes. So, my hands were somewhat tied there.

As for the wargear, that's where it gets interesting. As I mentioned in the fluff, the Imperium's Cultsts come from all walks of life - counting amongst them the poor and the rich alike. Mobs that include priceless heirlooms as Storm shields and Power weapons clearly hail from the more affluent planets and the bearers of such weapons being the scions of noble houses. Surely, when such individuals decide to bear arms in the name of the God-Emperor, they would want to wield the weapon that bears the identity of their lineage so as to bring honour to the family in the eyes of the Emperor of Mankind?

Basically, the options are there to allow the player to flesh out their Cultists to match his/her fluff for them. They could barbarians and the dredges or society or they could be rich folk.

May the missionary take multiple paths?

Seems very balanced btw - very good work!

Chaos cultists aren't just your average mental who wants to fight in the name of fanatical religion. Well, they are, but they are also more like trained/organised terrorists, with a lot of ex guardsmen who have fell and the like.

Imperial cultists are just fanatics, people who step out of their door and get straight involved because the local preacher inspired them to do so, they do not know how to fight, especially on the level of a trained guardsmen. The cultists may have more trained para-military units among them, but as a whole, they are not that trained.

Also, that's not how the higher society of the imperium works in my mind. The higher society of the imperium who have such equipment are going to be in their bunkers, in their towers, funding the fanatics with money at the Ecclesiarchy's request/persuasion or in direct exchange for power.

Similar units existed in previous editions: fraternis militia and Zealots. A google search or looking for old books/ WD that contained them could be a good source of info

Think:

ws2 bs2
no armour
"mob weapons" (count as autopistol and ccw)
big mobs (allow Imperial preachers to be purchased to lead each mob)

give them hatred(non-Imperial)

I'm hearing your comments. The challenge though is this - how to implement it? Any further dropping of the stats would almost certainly require a price drop to 3ppm. If this is simply due to BS: 2 alone (while keeping WS: 3), then it's somewhat of a false downgrade since one would for the most part rarely ever make use of this stat. Meanwhile, dropping both BS and WS down to 2 would be too much of a nerf as it would render the unit pretty much useless except to die in droves without dealing any damage in return; which really limits its viability. In which case, a WS and BS upgrade option would almost certainly be sought and, most of the times, taken. In which case, why make it an option in the first place rather than making it a mandatory attribute?

As others have said, you definitely need to lose the power swords, storm shields, eviscerators. The noble and the wealthy aren't going to serve in some haphazard militia, they're going to be high ranking officers in the imperial guard.

For that matter, a militia isn't going to have any military grade arms. If they want to serve the emperor, they join the guard and get nicer toys. What we're looking at here is a local group of civilians that are forming together to throw their lives at xenos, not even the level of a PDF. So no frags or kraks, no chainswords, and no practical training... the same level as conscripts, but without military grade gear. Autoguns and pistols, shotguns, CCWs... nothing more. Where are civilians getting grenade launchers? Where are they getting flamers? That's military gear.

So to sum it up... no special gear, and lower stats. BS and WS 2. Oh, and drop the ability to make vehicles count as assault vehicles. If trained astartes can't charge out of a rhino, why would clumsy humans be able to do it?

 kingbobbito wrote:
As others have said, you definitely need to lose the power swords, storm shields, eviscerators. The noble and the wealthy aren't going to serve in some haphazard militia, they're going to be high ranking officers in the imperial guard.

Ahem.

 RaptorusRex wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
As others have said, you definitely need to lose the power swords, storm shields, eviscerators. The noble and the wealthy aren't going to serve in some haphazard militia, they're going to be high ranking officers in the imperial guard.

Spoiler:

Ahem.

So you're saying that 1 in 5 cultists should be that guy? That's a high ranking priest of the Ecclesiarchy, not some run of the mill Joe Schmoe. You don't get 6 eviscerators in a squad of 30 guys.

EDIT: unless of course you're fighting 30 high ranking priests of the Ecclesiarchy, which "cultists" are not.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
As others have said, you definitely need to lose the power swords, storm shields, eviscerators. The noble and the wealthy aren't going to serve in some haphazard militia, they're going to be high ranking officers in the imperial guard.

Spoiler:

Ahem.

So you're saying that 1 in 5 cultists should be that guy? That's a high ranking priest of the Ecclesiarchy, not some run of the mill Joe Schmoe. You don't get 6 eviscerators in a squad of 30 guys.

Your point is valid- though Clovis is a wealthy Redemptionist noble, who isn't supported in any fashion by the Ecclesiarchy.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Your point is valid- though Clovis is a wealthy Redemptionist noble, who isn't supported in any fashion by the Ecclesiarchy.

Ah, hadn't considered the redemptionists. Like you said though, we're more likely to see a crowd of hive-world poor class... sure, led by someone like this Clovis perhaps, but it'll be guys with baseball bats and handguns.

Remember to count in how numerous the members of the lower classes actually are.

The likelihood of a noble with fancy gear being present in any given mob is slim.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Remember to count in how numerous the members of the lower classes actually are.

The likelihood of a noble with fancy gear being present in any given mob is slim.

For any given mob, yes. But for that one specific mob that a player created, modelled and conceived a fluff for? Probably higher. Remember, the options are there to help flesh out one's fluff. Perhaps I should reduce it down to 1 per 10 models? It would help bring it in line with other Cultist squads already in the game.

 kingbobbito wrote:
As others have said, you definitely need to lose the power swords, storm shields, eviscerators. The noble and the wealthy aren't going to serve in some haphazard militia, they're going to be high ranking officers in the imperial guard.

For that matter, a militia isn't going to have any military grade arms. If they want to serve the emperor, they join the guard and get nicer toys. What we're looking at here is a local group of civilians that are forming together to throw their lives at xenos, not even the level of a PDF. So no frags or kraks, no chainswords, and no practical training... the same level as conscripts, but without military grade gear. Autoguns and pistols, shotguns, CCWs... nothing more. Where are civilians getting grenade launchers? Where are they getting flamers? That's military gear.

So to sum it up... no special gear, and lower stats. BS and WS 2. Oh, and drop the ability to make vehicles count as assault vehicles. If trained astartes can't charge out of a rhino, why would clumsy humans be able to do it?

Then, the question still remains - if the Cultists aren't allowed to have good wargear, fighting abilities or survivability, then what would be the point of having such a unit in the first place? I feel allowing the odd Cultist to have access to high level wargear seems reasonable enough, to reflect their rarity as far as the lore is concerned. It's certainly appropriate to their role from a game mechanics perspective.

Now, regarding their having frag and krak grenades. While I can concede to the latter, frag grenades are just your everyday assault grenades, which are pretty common. Even the BRB considers frag grenades "ubiquitous" to the setting. As for access to military-grade hardware. You do realise that there are regular American citizens who own similar weapons? Likewise, in 40K, such weapons are available in Necromunda and Dark Heresy; with the latter specifying that Grenade launchers are about as common as Autoguns and that Flamers are slightly less so.

The most fanatical and cult like of the Nazi forces were the SS. Who also happened to be the most well armed and well trained forces.
The most fanatical and cult like islamic terrorist organization atm seems to be IS... who also seem to be incredibly well armed and trained compared to many other islamic terrorist forces and even the kurds, militias and Irqi security forces.

Whilst cultists have usually been lesser trained compared to the armed forces in our history so far, it has not always been the case.
In a galaxy of trillions/quadrillions of humans, there WILL be cultists who are as capable of fighting as your basic everyday professional soldier. So if you want to make them bs3 and ws3 that is absolutely fine. Your points cost for them IS very balanced, which is what I'm guessing you're asking. Others I feel are advising you more on background rather than actual balance issues. The biggest problem with background is indeedthe stormshields, powerweapons and eviserators, replace these with melta and plasma - there are plenty of these around even if not as common as granade launchers and flamers.
If you do decide to nerf them don't overestimate how the drop to bs2/ws2 effects you - my renegades get on just fine at 3ppm.

Can they take multiple missionary paths?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also keep it at 1 in 5. My renegades get 2 specials and a heavy per 10 plus whatever I want to give a champ. It's still balanced.

I'd lean more to sticking to just 1 path.

Also, perhaps as a solution for the Eviscerator, Power weapon and Storm shield dilemma, might it be more acceptable (while hopefully, still keeping them potent) to instead give them access to Heavy chainswords and either Rosarius (4++) or Brute shields (5++)?

I don't think anyone has mentioned the Siege of Vraks Militia. In the first volume they believed they were loyalists, and represented non-professional soldiers.

Of course they were equipped with Guard issue gear, some of which was old or substandard. So perhaps a downgrade from what is presented in that book? To better represent the fact that they are just 'fanatics' joining a cause.

mr. peasant wrote:
Then, the question still remains - if the Cultists aren't allowed to have good wargear, fighting abilities or survivability, then what would be the point of having such a unit in the first place? I feel allowing the odd Cultist to have access to high level wargear seems reasonable enough, to reflect their rarity as far as the lore is concerned. It's certainly appropriate to their role from a game mechanics perspective.

They'd fill the exact role that a group of angry civilians should fill.... cannon fodder. You don't take IG conscripts because they play an important battlefield role, you take them because it's a huge mass of bodies that you can throw around. If one of these guys gets a power sword, while a sister is just wielding a bolter, I don't think he's going to be allowed to hang onto it for very long. They shouldn't be capable of dealing out more death than the sisters they're supporting, the sisters deserve all the good gear.

Now, regarding their having frag and krak grenades. While I can concede to the latter, frag grenades are just your everyday assault grenades, which are pretty common. Even the BRB considers frag grenades "ubiquitous" to the setting. As for access to military-grade hardware. You do realise that there are regular American citizens who own similar weapons? Likewise, in 40K, such weapons are available in Necromunda and Dark Heresy; with the latter specifying that Grenade launchers are about as common as Autoguns and that Flamers are slightly less so.

As a gun owning American citizen, I can say that it's not the scale that your squad is claiming. I live in an area where at least half of the people own a gun.... but that doesn't mean everyone owns an M16. If I grab 50 random adult men off the street, I'll probably get about 30 with guns, and of that 1 or 2 with automatic, military grade firearms. Even the gun club I belong to doesn't see a lot of automatics. And a guy owning a power sword or a storm shield would be like an average citizen owning an M60.

All I'm saying is that either every sister you play had better be carrying a power sword.... otherwise, if a cultist does happen to have one he'll either "misplace" it or be "called in for questioning" after a short while....

 kingbobbito wrote:
They'd fill the exact role that a group of angry civilians should fill.... cannon fodder. You don't take IG conscripts because they play an important battlefield role, you take them because it's a huge mass of bodies that you can throw around. If one of these guys gets a power sword, while a sister is just wielding a bolter, I don't think he's going to be allowed to hang onto it for very long. They shouldn't be capable of dealing out more death than the sisters they're supporting, the sisters deserve all the good gear.

Conscripts are also a free slot. Where as these Cultists are not. Moreover, I'm not trying to create Conscripts!! Besides, they shouldn't really be comparable/identical to Conscripts since Conscripts are - by definition - forced into service where as Cultists volunteer to go to war. Now, only an idiot would go to war unprepared. Most would get some basic training - be it on their own or through whatever organisation they are in.

 kingbobbito wrote:
As a gun owning American citizen, I can say that it's not the scale that your squad is claiming. I live in an area where at least half of the people own a gun.... but that doesn't mean everyone owns an M16. If I grab 50 random adult men off the street, I'll probably get about 30 with guns, and of that 1 or 2 with automatic, military grade firearms. Even the gun club I belong to doesn't see a lot of automatics. And a guy owning a power sword or a storm shield would be like an average citizen owning an M60.

And of these 50 hypothetical, random adult men that you pulled off the street, how many would fly themselves to say... Iraq or Syria to fight in the war? The average Cultist in the unit is not going to be analogous to the average Joe that you pick off the street. Rather, they're likely to have far more in common with the various homegrown militia organisations that you might find in the Deep South or war-torn countries; many of whom do indeed possess military-grade hardware. More to the point, I've pointed to sources within the 40K fluff that explicitly states that stuff like Grenade launchers and Flamers are pretty easy to come by. Besides, any group that is able to score themselves their own galaxy-traversing spaceship should be able to supply themselves some good wargear, surely?

Lastly, are you genuinely suggesting that a noble Sister of Battle - Daughter of the Emperor - would stoop so low as common thievery?

mr. peasant wrote:
Conscripts are also a free slot. Where as these Cultists are not. Moreover, I'm not trying to create Conscripts!! Besides, they shouldn't really be comparable/identical to Conscripts since Conscripts are - by definition - forced into service where as Cultists volunteer to go to war. Now, only an idiot would go to war unprepared. Most would get some basic training - be it on their own or through whatever organisation they are in.

Basic training. It's the difference between the training that a US marine would receive and the training a local police officer might receive. And yes, cultists would actually be the most likely to go into a warzone unprepared. In their crazed fanatical zeal, they'll find out that there's a daemon incursion down the road and they grab whatever happens to be at hand, wildly throwing their lives at the enemy with even less regard than the Imperial Guard has for lives.

And of these 50 hypothetical, random adult men that you pulled off the street, how many would fly themselves to say... Iraq or Syria to fight in the war? The average Cultist in the unit is not going to be analogous to the average Joe that you pick off the street. Rather, they're likely to have far more in common with the various homegrown militia organisations that you might find in the Deep South or war-torn countries; many of whom do indeed possess military-grade hardware. More to the point, I've pointed to sources within the 40K fluff that explicitly states that stuff like Grenade launchers and Flamers are pretty easy to come by. Besides, any group that is able to score themselves their own galaxy-traversing spaceship should be able to supply themselves some good wargear, surely?

For starters, I'm talking power weapons. I don't recall saying anything about flamers, as I don't even remember seeing that in the original idea. They're something that can be (clumsily) homemade, even today. I'm talking a power sword, a priceless piece of technology. They're potentially thousands of years old, reserved for literally the highest ranking members of the military forces (mostly astartes, though also given to high ranking guard and commissars). Not something wielded by 1 in 5 people that have no official military sanction or support.

Also, when did you add that the sisters ship these guys around the galaxy along beside them? Why would the sisters dedicate extra cruisers to carry around a bunch of guys that aren't even officially supposed to be soldiers? I assumed we were looking at local populations of invaded planets coming out to aid the sisters, not them wasting space transporting cultists when they'd be much better off transporting a detachment of elite trained storm troopers. Is there a reason that they'd choose to take a non-military group to aid them instead of something more useful, especially considering that the guardsmen are probably just as loyal to the Emperor?

Lastly, are you genuinely suggesting that a noble Sister of Battle - Daughter of the Emperor - would stoop so low as common thievery?

If a commissar saw a rank and file soldier picking up the bolter of a fallen astartes, would anyone even blink twice if he shot the guy on the spot? It's not thievery to reclaim from a commoner what they're not worthy to carry.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Basic training. It's the difference between the training that a US marine would receive and the training a local police officer might receive. And yes, cultists would actually be the most likely to go into a warzone unprepared. In their crazed fanatical zeal, they'll find out that there's a daemon incursion down the road and they grab whatever happens to be at hand, wildly throwing their lives at the enemy with even less regard than the Imperial Guard has for lives.

And how well trained do you think the average Imperial Guardsmen gets again? Bear in mind that Conscripts - who are regular civilians or new recruits who've yet to receive military training - are already WS: 2, BS: 2. A Cultist, who's been training their entire life to go to war or who has received intensive training by some militia organisation, is bound to be better than an untrained who's never held a weapon in his/her life.

 kingbobbito wrote:
For starters, I'm talking power weapons. I don't recall saying anything about flamers, as I don't even remember seeing that in the original idea.

Not a problem. I'll attach it for you:

 kingbobbito wrote:
For that matter, a militia isn't going to have any military grade arms. If they want to serve the emperor, they join the guard and get nicer toys. What we're looking at here is a local group of civilians that are forming together to throw their lives at xenos, not even the level of a PDF. So no frags or kraks, no chainswords, and no practical training... the same level as conscripts, but without military grade gear. Autoguns and pistols, shotguns, CCWs... nothing more. Where are civilians getting grenade launchers? Where are they getting flamers? That's military gear.

Next.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I'm talking a power sword, a priceless piece of technology. They're potentially thousands of years old, reserved for literally the highest ranking members of the military forces (mostly astartes, though also given to high ranking guard and commissars). Not something wielded by 1 in 5 people that have no official military sanction or support.

Well, Power weapons are evidently common enough that the Imperium can equip whole Abhuman regiments with them (namely: Bullgryns).

 kingbobbito wrote:
Also, when did you add that the sisters ship these guys around the galaxy along beside them? Why would the sisters dedicate extra cruisers to carry around a bunch of guys that aren't even officially supposed to be soldiers? I assumed we were looking at local populations of invaded planets coming out to aid the sisters, not them wasting space transporting cultists when they'd be much better off transporting a detachment of elite trained storm troopers. Is there a reason that they'd choose to take a non-military group to aid them instead of something more useful, especially considering that the guardsmen are probably just as loyal to the Emperor?

Read the fluff again. While note spelled out in so many words, it's there. And no, the Sisters aren't providing them transport. The Cultists provide that themselves.

 kingbobbito wrote:
If a commissar saw a rank and file soldier picking up the bolter of a fallen astartes, would anyone even blink twice if he shot the guy on the spot? It's not thievery to reclaim from a commoner what they're not worthy to carry.

Well, that's because the guy picked up a bolter that didn't belong to him. That's not what's happening here. Guardsmen (namely their NCOs and COs) carry boltguns all the time. And before you state that civilians aren't allowed to own Power weapons, I'd like you to cite your evidence, please.

And like I mentioned in a previous post, there is a solution to this - namely to swap those "problematic" options out for Heavy chainswords and Brute shields. Any comments on that?

mr. peasant wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Basic training. It's the difference between the training that a US marine would receive and the training a local police officer might receive. And yes, cultists would actually be the most likely to go into a warzone unprepared. In their crazed fanatical zeal, they'll find out that there's a daemon incursion down the road and they grab whatever happens to be at hand, wildly throwing their lives at the enemy with even less regard than the Imperial Guard has for lives.

And how well trained do you think the average Imperial Guardsmen gets again? Bear in mind that Conscripts - who are regular civilians or new recruits who've yet to receive military training - are already WS: 2, BS: 2. A Cultist, who's been training their entire life to go to war or who has received intensive training by some militia organisation, is bound to be better than an untrained who's never held a weapon in his/her life.

Actually, Cadian Whiteshields, who still use the Conscript profile, are still effectively trained with using their weapons. Just not to the same degree as regular guardsmen. I would still agree that Cultists should have WS2 BS2. These are people who have just heard of the enemy next door and gone to make the Emperor proud. They aren't going to be that good, or else they would have volunteered to join the Imperial Guard/PDF on their planet. So there must be a reason why they aren't in these armies. Physical ineptitude seems like a decent reason.

 kingbobbito wrote:
For that matter, a militia isn't going to have any military grade arms. If they want to serve the emperor, they join the guard and get nicer toys. What we're looking at here is a local group of civilians that are forming together to throw their lives at xenos, not even the level of a PDF. So no frags or kraks, no chainswords, and no practical training... the same level as conscripts, but without military grade gear. Autoguns and pistols, shotguns, CCWs... nothing more. Where are civilians getting grenade launchers? Where are they getting flamers? That's military gear.

Next.

Please, I'd like this question answered, for clarification. I could see how rudimental flamers and grenade launchers are obtained, but actual frag and krak grenades and chain-weapons are rather hard to come by. Especially as an Imperial citizen who barely gets the food they need to survive.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I'm talking a power sword, a priceless piece of technology. They're potentially thousands of years old, reserved for literally the highest ranking members of the military forces (mostly astartes, though also given to high ranking guard and commissars). Not something wielded by 1 in 5 people that have no official military sanction or support.

Well, Power weapons are evidently common enough that the Imperium can equip whole Abhuman regiments with them (namely: Bullgryns).

Yes. Bullgryns which wield weapons designed specifically for them. Would you also suggest that needle rifles can be used by Cultists as Ratlings have them? The Imperium give the Bullgryns these weapons as they will make the most use out of it and will probably survive to reach the enemy, unlike a random no-name cultist who is squishier than a guardsman.

 kingbobbito wrote:
If a commissar saw a rank and file soldier picking up the bolter of a fallen astartes, would anyone even blink twice if he shot the guy on the spot? It's not thievery to reclaim from a commoner what they're not worthy to carry.

Well, that's because the guy picked up a bolter that didn't belong to him. That's not what's happening here. Guardsmen (namely their NCOs and COs) carry boltguns all the time. And before you state that civilians aren't allowed to own Power weapons, I'd like you to cite your evidence, please.

And like I mentioned in a previous post, there is a solution to this - namely to swap those "problematic" options out for Heavy chainswords and Brute shields. Any comments on that?

The power sword belongs to the Emperor. The Sister is a Daughter of the Emperor. She has more claim than he does, and I doubt he would complain about that.
Regular guardsmen are hardly ever given bolt weapons, and even NCOs and COs find them to be a rare commodity. It is more of an heirloom or earned in duty, and it isn't an Astartes bolter either. Regular humans can barely carry an Astartes bolt pistol. How do Imperial citizens come by power weapons? They can hardly live in comforting lifestyles, and I would bet that selling a power sword on the black market will make one's life a lot nicer than the drudgery they already live in. Power weapons aren't as common as they are on tabletop, where every tenth guy can get one. And those are Sergeants of Imperial Guard, official soldiers.


Heavy chainswords are acceptable to me, but Brute Shields? Wielded by Bullgryns? There's a reason that Bullgryns are given those shields, and it's not because they look good with them.

Gotta weigh in here with saying that they should be WS2 BS2 and equiped with autopistol/CCW. Id let the missionary have a power weapon but no the cultists, they are the definition of untrained milita, theyre just a group of angry hate filled civilians who've followed the faith to kill some aliens/heretics/etc in the name of the emperor. Conscripts are better trained and equipped by them by fluff, you have to remember that guardsmen are very well trained and equipped, its just that they seem terrible because everyone else in the galaxy is far better trained and equipped. (marines have tens or hundreds of years experience, the best gear the imperium produces, and genetic/mental enhancement, chaos marines have this plus the blessing of the dark gods, chaos cultists have spent a long time training for the moment they will throw off imperial shackles, tau are trained from when they can walk, eldar are naturally superior and even guardians have normally had very good training and are equipped with incredibly good wargear. etc etc) by these standards untrained militia should definitely be WS2 BS2.

I would simply take conscripts with a priest as a template and then swap lasguns for autopistol/ccw. Maybe allow 1 in 10 to carry a flamer or grenade launcher. In all fairness even frag grenades are questionable. Also maybe allow you to take 1 mob of cultists as a slot free choice for every compulsory choice you take.

Keep moral higher than conscripts. These guys do WANT to be there, where as a lot of conscripts probably dont.

So maybe 3PPM,

Unit size 10-50

WS2 BS2 S3 T3 A1 W1 I3 Ld7 Sv6+

Wargear: Autopistol and CCW, Improvised armour/flak vest

Special rules:
Hatred

For every 10 models one model may take a flamer or grenade launcher for 5pts

The unit may be joined by 1-3 Missionaries for 25ppm

Missionary
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 A1 W2 I3 Ld7 Sv6+

Wargear:
Autopistol and CCW
Rosarius
Improvised armour

Special Rules:
Zealot
War hymns

Options:
May take a plasma gun for 15pts
May swap autopistol and CCW for shotgun: Free
May swap autopistol for plasma pistol: 10pts
May swap autopistol and CCW for eviscerator: 15pts

mr. peasant wrote:
Well, Power weapons are evidently common enough that the Imperium can equip whole Abhuman regiments with them (namely: Bullgryns).

Actually, there's a difference in the rarity of power mauls and other power weapons. The classification of "power maul" can also include shock mauls, like the ones that the arbites use (meaning they're a more common weapon). Similar effect to a power maul if the charge is high enough, but able to be reproduced by the mechanicum more easily than weapons like power swords, which are sheathed in a power field. Keep in mind though that the ones used by the arbites are largely designed to incapacitate, whereas the bullgryn ones are specifically designed for them and much too large for a human.

As such, it's reasonable to supply bullgryns with these simpler weapons, especially when you consider that a bullgryn will get a lot more use out of it than if they gave them to a squad of human guardsmen.

You also need to keep in mind too that not everyone is happy that bullgryns do get access to this weaponry, or even that they're employed by the Guard at all. So you can't say that everyone's fine with bullgryn.

@Bobug: First of all, I'd like to thank you for actually providing actual, potential solutions along with your comments and criticism. However, I think the suggestion would just wind up causing the Imperial Cultists to wind up playing too much like a unit of Conscripts; which isn't what I'm going for, not the least of which being because such a unit already exists amongst the Armies of the Imperium. Likewise, the suggestions for the Missionary isn't ideal as it plays too much like a Priest. As for making them a free slot, that's already the Battle Conclave's schtick - especially in terms of aesthetics, when comparing between Priests and the attached Missionaries.

At this point though, I think we're all going around in circles; with the same points being repeated again and again with no parties convincing the others. Ultimately, I think the main reason for this is the difference in expectations. Most seem insistent on the image of Cultists as being nothing but disorganised rabble with no resources of their own where as the Cultists I envision making up such units are organised (albeit informally and as irregular forces) militant groups whose members have been training their whole lives in order to fly off to some distant planet and join the Crusades. I honestly wonder if it's a naming thing. Had I given the unit a special adjective at the start of its name (e.g. War Cultist, etc), would the stats and options be more acceptable? Certainly, I know that had it been called "Death" Cultists, then Power weapons would be back on the table.

Anyway, in order for the discussion to move forward, I'd try listing the aims for the unit could be spec'ed to fill as well as summarise the main criticisms/feedback thus far:

Aims:
- Tar pitting, as the Sisters currently lack a good unit for this function.
- Decent close combat capabilities; ideally through both, volume and quality of hits.
- Mediocre/Decent assault capabilities.
- Be able to be used aggressively; to match the Sisters' play style.
- Feel and play differently from Conscripts through the above points.


Criticisms/Recommendations:
- WS and BS should be 2, as Cultists shouldn't be as well trained as Guardsmen.
- Power weapons, Storm shields and Eviscerators are too rare and valuable for Cultists to possess them.
- Cultists should not have access to Frag grenades, Grenade launchers and Flamers as they are civilians and should not have access to military grade weaponry.


Looking at the criticisms and recommendations, my main bug bear is that they are universally based on lore reasons and less derived from the unit and game's mechanics; which (in my opinion) is not a very convincing argument on its own to make a balance change. After all, one doesn't create and balance a unit based entirely on fluff, but rather develop fluff to explain why the unit is balanced and statted the way they are.

That said, I will try to make some compromises. As mentioned before, I'm considering swapping out Power weapons, Eviscerators and Storm shields for Heavy chainswords, Brute shields and maybe some sort of Poisoned CCW. Alternatively, what about keeping said options but limiting access (e.g. 2 per squad)? Also, what are people's thoughts on giving the Cultists WS: 3, BS: 2 as a compromise?

As for the comment someone made earlier that Brute shields would be too big for a human to carry, that's not the case as can be evidenced here:


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mr. peasant wrote:

Aims:
- Tar pitting, as the Sisters currently lack a good unit for this function.
- Decent close combat capabilities; ideally through both, volume and quality of hits.
- Mediocre/Decent assault capabilities.
- Be able to be used aggressively; to match the Sisters' play style.
- Feel and play differently from Conscripts through the above points.

Just curious, why do you think sisters should get a good tarpit unit when similar armies (any flavor of marines, for example, which sisters closely resemble) don't have one? Aren't sisters supposed to be a more small numbered, "elite" style army? Also, don't mean to shoot this idea down, but most units don't get volume AND quality of hits. You can either be like orks and get a ton of crap, or be like marines and get a handful of butt whooping. Outside of units that people complain about (like necron wraiths), there aren't many units that get both unless they pay out the whazoo. If you want to go for a more balanced feel it should be a unit that is only good against some things, not against everything.

That said, I will try to make some compromises. As mentioned before, I'm considering swapping out Power weapons, Eviscerators and Storm shields for Heavy chainswords, Brute shields and maybe some sort of Poisoned CCW. Also, what are people's thoughts on giving the Cultists WS: 3, BS: 2 as a compromise?

The heavy chainsword would be a reasonable upgrade, but why a poison weapon? It's just that in the entirety of the imperial arsenal I can't think of anything that fills the role outside of stuff the assassins get, what weapon did you have in mind? If there's a common type of poison weapon out there it'd be an option, it's just that you don't want the weaponry to stray too far from what the rest of the army has available.

As for the comment someone made earlier that Brute shields would be too big for a human to carry, that's not the case as can be evidenced here:

Spoiler:

<in spoiler tag due to image size>

Just because something might look okay on a model doesn't mean it makes logical sense for them to have. Brute shields are designed for bullgryns, not for humans. If we assume it's made of solid metal, and I believe it's mentioned that there's a weak power field in there too, and then go off of the size and common weights of metals, you're going to have one heck of a shield. Even if I estimate a bit low for the measurements on it, saying it's 2.5 by 1.5 feet (although it looks more like 3.5 by 2.5), and maybe 2 inches thick.... that's over a thousand cubic inches. In steel, that's 300 pounds. In titanium, you're still looking at 175 pounds. Throw on whatever technology is required to provide a power field? It'd be impossible for these guys to effectively charge while lugging these around.

If you include models carrying brute shields, said models would need a rule showing this.... incapable of running, sweeping advances, decreased movement and charge range. If it's heavy enough to provide an invulnerable save it's going to be big. Keep in mind it has to be able to block plasma or a demolisher shell to count as an invuln.

If you want something more reasonable, aim for something more like a space marine combat shield for a 6++. A small buckler on a space marine, closer to small heater shield on humans, not hindering but still providing modest protection. Still, it's large enough that they can't wear it on one arm like a marine and still use a weapon, so don't get a bonus attack for 2 weapons.