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Your point is irrelevant if you don't understand your fundamental flaw in logic here.

No one said the thing you claim was said. In fact, what was said is not even congruent with what you claim was said.

You said....

It's almost like that's how they intend the game to be played.

Remind me again how I am not replying to your point?

If you were around Dakka when 7th dropped, you'd know there was plenty of hate poured out on Unbound as well. The problem is, with GW, there's only so many months you can go on pouring out hatred for before they release something new that deserves your hatred

But yeah, I agree with the people who are saying Unbound is just super lazy rules writing. People always had the ability to throw away the rules if that's what they wanted to do, we didn't need another rule to tell us that we can throw away the rest of the rules. What we needed was those other rules to be improved so that when we decide we want to throw them away we have a solid base to start from.

My Takes on Unbound
Lazy Writing: Rouge Trader Days, There was only Unbound, Second brought is the % System and 3rd the FOC and 7th has given us the FOC and Unbound.
So I see things have gone full circle with the addition of a FOC to (Now here is the Key Word) Attempt to force Balance on those who want to just only play the most powerful Units. Now this concept is a good concept, but flawed by human nature.

Unbound was an attempt to please everyone and we know how that works out. Before 7th there where a lot of threads about how people were being forced to play units they did not want to [Mostly Troop Choices] and wanted to change things. Some of these were the same one who complained the most about Unbound when it dropped, even though they got what they were asking for.

Competitiveness: This has nothing to do with The Rules, it hast to do with the players. It is the players who are taking a half dozen Riptides, not the rules. The Rules just allow it.

Now our group has no problems with Unbound, in fact we encourage it at times. We have one player who wants to field an all Dreadnaught Army and I want to field an all Sternguard/Vanguard Vet Army.

Using unbound has allowed me to assemble my Angels of Wrath army without having to compromise. I can now add Space Wolf scouts to my Dark Angels list with ease; thereby representing my fully fledged and experienced marines who happen to wear scout armour.

I am genuinely confused as to why people dislike unbound armies though. Considering all the high power mix and match army combo's that these same people have found perfectly acceptable since Allies became a thing.

I play Night Lords and plan on using unbound for a 3.5 style army list with plenty of FA (for moar raptors) and chaos furies without having to take aligned daemons.

I like unbound because it lets me do this. I hate unbound because this should be possible without unbound.

Never played and never will. I have also never seen a true unbound army played. Some how 40k without some sort of restrictions other than points just somehow seems wrong and not in the spirit of the game.

I'm now going to go back to playing the game where space elves are fighting space orks.

I love unbound. Let's me have an advantage for those times when I am find playing by the FoC. It also allows me to play armies that have always been in the game but have never been allowed to actually be played in the game. I like being able to field my Raven Guard 8th Company in its entirety.

That being said, the rule fails because players often times tend to blame the rules when other players (or even themselves) automatically go to the worst (nastiest) possible combination of units they can pull out of a codex.

Even a perfectly balanced game and meta would still have specific builds for each army/faction that a large proportion of players would take with the idea that they would be "better" than others. It just changes the distance from the top of the power list to the bottom.

Unbound doesn't fix this. So while I love it, it fails for me. Namely because it doesn't allow me to ban "those" players from my table top. Oh wait, I already get to do that...

Seriously people, it's YOUR game you are playing, rules are rules, it's lazy gaming if you allow them to ruin your fun.

Actually the latest 'generation' of Throne of Skulls specifically allows Unbound armies.

On the other hand, it also requires you to get at least as many Favourite Game Votes as any other player to be able to qualify for winning the tournament, so if you use it as license to be a complete tool, you cannot win the event, regardless of destroying every opponent you face.

Let's be honest, it's quite possible to be a douche with a battleforged army. From invisible centurions to 2++ rerollable screamers to death companies with hit and run because one white scar techmarine is having a crafty smoke at the back of the unit, people will always find ways to abuse the rules.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually the latest 'generation' of Throne of Skulls specifically allows Unbound armies.

On the other hand, it also requires you to get at least as many Favourite Game Votes as any other player to be able to qualify for winning the tournament, so if you use it as license to be a complete tool, you cannot win the event, regardless of destroying every opponent you face.

Let's be honest, it's quite possible to be a douche with a battleforged army. From invisible centurions to 2++ rerollable screamers to death companies with hit and run because one white scar techmarine is having a crafty smoke at the back of the unit, people will always find ways to abuse the rules.

To recap, most people don't like unbound but would play against an unbound list IF they opponent was nice and not WAAC. I wish the Ork codex allowed more of our great HQ's like the 5th BA or the previous Necron codex with royal court. Or just double like Space Wolves. That's my biggest complaint. But unlimited (Unbound quantity ) CAD's are allowed.

Since its been brought up Murillo times: tell me what you think is the most broken spammed Unbound list for each army is.

Thanks for all the info so far.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Since its been brought up Murillo times: tell me what you think is the most broken spammed Unbound list for each army is.

Assuming you want each army to stay within it's codex while building an inbound list. For Sisters, as many Dominion squads in Immo's as you can fit.

 PipeAlley wrote:

Please explain to me like I'm 5 or an actually Ork Boy what is so bad about Unbound. "broken" examples of "codex abuse" would be greatly apprciated. Thanks, Pipes

20 units of 1 Vaul Support Battery with D-Cannon.
35 units of 1 DE beast pack, Khameae
20 units of 1 DE beast pack, beast master
20 Lhaemaean

So the problem is that it's packing a ton of Strength D shooting (20 shots!), in the durable T7 3+ save packages.
Along with that, it has 75 other units, with a mix of speed, combat, and shooting.
It's extremely difficult for a normal army to deal with this, as it's all different units. 10 tactical marines combat squad into 2 squads, and at best, kill a pair of 10 point units. Meanwhile, the other 73 run rampant all over the table. Standing off with objective secure doesn't really work vs 20 full D barrage blasts.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

Please explain to me like I'm 5 or an actually Ork Boy what is so bad about Unbound. "broken" examples of "codex abuse" would be greatly apprciated. Thanks, Pipes

20 units of 1 Vaul Support Battery with D-Cannon.
35 units of 1 DE beast pack, Khameae
20 units of 1 DE beast pack, beast master
20 Lhaemaean

So the problem is that it's packing a ton of Strength D shooting (20 shots!), in the durable T7 3+ save packages.
Along with that, it has 75 other units, with a mix of speed, combat, and shooting.
It's extremely difficult for a normal army to deal with this, as it's all different units. 10 tactical marines combat squad into 2 squads, and at best, kill a pair of 10 point units. Meanwhile, the other 73 run rampant all over the table. Standing off with objective secure doesn't really work vs 20 full D barrage blasts.

The Vaul Support Battery is DE and in the codex and fires Str D? What is the range? How many shots per gun?

 PipeAlley wrote:
tell me what you think is the most broken spammed Unbound list for each army is.

What do you mean for each army? Unbound lets you take anything you like from any codex.

Ex;

165 - Tigurius
410 - 5x Grav Cents, Omniscope
245 - Draigo
300 - Fateweaver
225 - 9x Screamers
150 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML3, Disk, Exalted Gift
120 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML3, Disk
225 - Riptide, IA, EWO, Stims

1840

Play that in a kill points game.

How about

165 - Tigurius
410 - 5x Grav Cents, Omniscope
245 - Draigo
170 - Heldrake
170 - Heldrake
130 - Skyray, DPod
210 - Riptide, IA, EWO, VT

1500

Control the skies. If it's on the ground with a 2+ it dies to grav, it it's on the ground with a 3+ or worse, it dies to drakes, if it's in the air, missiles + vector strikes and some follow up with the riptide mean it won't be for long.

240 - Nightbringer
295 - Wraithknight
350 - Belakor
230 - Riptide, EPCA, VT
210 - Riptide, IA, EWO, VT
240 - Flyrant, 2x TL Devs, E-Grubs
275 - Insensate Rage Bloodthirster

1850

All the MC's.

115 - Farseer, bike
115 - Farseer, bike
115 - Farseer, bike
115 - Farseer, bike
135 - 5x Scatbikes
135 - 5x Scatbikes
135 - 5x Scatbikes
295 - Wraithknight
295 - Wraithknight
295 - Wraithknight

1750

Get people out of transports, cast eldrich storm. Proceed to eliminate any remaining 2+ saves with wraithknights. Use prescience and perfect timing to ensure flier destruction

Just imagine if you could easily take any OP unit you felt like from any codex. You can create some killer stuff. Granted eldar can manage it in their own codex using formations, but it's still silly. Could you tailor a list to beat most of these? Sure, but if someone turns up to a PUG when everyone else has a TAC list, I suspect we all know which way most of these games will go.

I agree with the sentiment that unbound is lazy rule writing. I will also say that though unbound and allies are fun ideas that simply create a gaming system where having a dedicated army or faction is utterly flawed. The bound lists need a larger advantage then only objective secured, to off set the min max armies that can be generated by allies and unbound.

My Army is Tyranid. We have been kicked in the toxin sacs with the ally matrix and Red Book powers. I find there are many holes that can be filled with allies and unbound, but this is the case with all armies. Simply solving shortcomings in a codex by allowing open access to all others is, once again, lazy.

Truthfully, lets not kid ourselves, these systems were implemented to drive sales and thus increase investor returns, not to create a better gaming experience. With more flushed out rules, more care given to implementing this system, it could have been game changing instead of just game breaking.

DDD

 Drasius wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
tell me what you think is the most broken spammed Unbound list for each army is.

What do you mean for each army? Unbound lets you take anything you like from any codex.

Ex;

165 - Tigurius
410 - 5x Grav Cents, Omniscope
245 - Draigo
300 - Fateweaver
225 - 9x Screamers
150 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML3, Disk, Exalted Gift
120 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML3, Disk
225 - Riptide, IA, EWO, Stims

1840

Play that in a kill points game.

How about

165 - Tigurius
410 - 5x Grav Cents, Omniscope
245 - Draigo
170 - Heldrake
170 - Heldrake
130 - Skyray, DPod
210 - Riptide, IA, EWO, VT

1500

Control the skies. If it's on the ground with a 2+ it dies to grav, it it's on the ground with a 3+ or worse, it dies to drakes, if it's in the air, missiles + vector strikes and some follow up with the riptide mean it won't be for long.

240 - Nightbringer
295 - Wraithknight
350 - Belakor
230 - Riptide, EPCA, VT
210 - Riptide, IA, EWO, VT
240 - Flyrant, 2x TL Devs, E-Grubs
275 - Insensate Rage Bloodthirster

1850

All the MC's.

115 - Farseer, bike
115 - Farseer, bike
115 - Farseer, bike
115 - Farseer, bike
135 - 5x Scatbikes
135 - 5x Scatbikes
135 - 5x Scatbikes
295 - Wraithknight
295 - Wraithknight
295 - Wraithknight

1750

Get people out of transports, cast eldrich storm. Proceed to eliminate any remaining 2+ saves with wraithknights. Use prescience and perfect timing to ensure flier destruction

Just imagine if you could easily take any OP unit you felt like from any codex. You can create some killer stuff. Granted eldar can manage it in their own codex using formations, but it's still silly. Could you tailor a list to beat most of these? Sure, but if someone turns up to a PUG when everyone else has a TAC list, I suspect we all know which way most of these games will go.

That last one is almost double CAD legal. Replace a WraithKnight with one more bike unit.
The rules for allies still affects Unbound list. You'd still want to keep those components away from each other.

Furious_DDD wrote:
I agree with the sentiment that unbound is lazy rule writing. I will also say that though unbound and allies are fun ideas that simply create a gaming system where having a dedicated army or faction is utterly flawed. The bound lists need a larger advantage then only objective secured, to off set the min max armies that can be generated by allies and unbound.

My Army is Tyranid. We have been kicked in the toxin sacs with the ally matrix and Red Book powers. I find there are many holes that can be filled with allies and unbound, but this is the case with all armies. Simply solving shortcomings in a codex by allowing open access to all others is, once again, lazy.

Truthfully, lets not kid ourselves, these systems were implemented to drive sales and thus increase investor returns, not to create a better gaming experience. With more flushed out rules, more care given to implementing this system, it could have been game changing instead of just game breaking.

DDD

Actually, Unbound is also useful if you just want to play with a themed army that won't fit a CAD. For instance: a terminator-only battleforce holding a stronghold in the center of the board with many fortification weapons, versus an invading horde of Orks on one side, and Tyranid on the other. Hold the 1 objective at the center of the board for 6 + roll-off turns. We've actually done this before, and it was a blast. When the terminators lost horribly the first game, we gave them reinforcements (MORE TERMINATORS!!) in drop pods in turn 4. I will confess that one of the reasons we did this was because I have something like 80 freakin terminators painted, most of which hadn't even been played in 1 game

Things like this are fun to think up and play; IMO more fun than random terrain, two random (but battle-forged) armies, FIGHT!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Please fix title. We're on page two, and the poor title wants to pour its guts out onto the forum floor.

 Talys wrote:

Furious_DDD wrote:
I agree with the sentiment that unbound is lazy rule writing. I will also say that though unbound and allies are fun ideas that simply create a gaming system where having a dedicated army or faction is utterly flawed. The bound lists need a larger advantage then only objective secured, to off set the min max armies that can be generated by allies and unbound.

My Army is Tyranid. We have been kicked in the toxin sacs with the ally matrix and Red Book powers. I find there are many holes that can be filled with allies and unbound, but this is the case with all armies. Simply solving shortcomings in a codex by allowing open access to all others is, once again, lazy.

Truthfully, lets not kid ourselves, these systems were implemented to drive sales and thus increase investor returns, not to create a better gaming experience. With more flushed out rules, more care given to implementing this system, it could have been game changing instead of just game breaking.

DDD

Actually, Unbound is also useful if you just want to play with a themed army that won't fit a CAD. For instance: a terminator-only battleforce holding a stronghold in the center of the board with many fortification weapons, versus an invading horde of Orks on one side, and Tyranid on the other. Hold the 1 objective at the center of the board for 6 + roll-off turns. We've actually done this before, and it was a blast. When the terminators lost horribly the first game, we gave them reinforcements (MORE TERMINATORS!!) in drop pods in turn 4. I will confess that one of the reasons we did this was because I have something like 80 freakin terminators painted, most of which hadn't even been played in 1 game

Things like this are fun to think up and play; IMO more fun than random terrain, two random (but battle-forged) armies, FIGHT!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Please fix title. We're on page two, and the poor title wants to pour its guts out onto the forum floor.

Title fixed. At this point I'll just bring 2 lists every time I play, one Unbound, and one Double CAD.

Wait wait wait... You went and changed hate to (BLANK) yet you didn't bother to change poor to pour... Seriously?

FratHammer wrote:
Wait wait wait... You went and changed hate to (BLANK) yet you didn't bother to change poor to pour... Seriously?

LOL that's great!! I didn't notice that is what the problem was. I assumed someone didn't like the word "hate". Now I definitely have to leave it as is! Hey, even Ork players make mistakes sometimes.