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Surely RAW you'd only get the warp charges from psykers who are either on their own or in a unit of psykers? Annoying, certainly, but I'm not seeing the issue that breaks the phase or prevents them from ever casting even when alone.

In any case, you're again making the grandiose assumption that it's the psychic phase that's broken - rather than the IC rules.

You don't understand the RaW clearly so either read it or drop the argument. Just saying surely this thing is RaW doesn't make it RaW.

So first we have a Psyker unit is a unit that has the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers rule. Find me such a unit anywhere in any codex (remembering they need and explicit rule stating that the unit has the rule not the models as usual).

Let's ignore that for a second and move to generating Warp Charge for a lvl2 Psyker in a Brotherhood with lvl1 tell me the Warp Charge that UNIT generates using RaW.

Then to cast a power select a power known to the unit. Only BoP know powers as a unit so a lone psyker can indeed NEVER cast a power.

Starting to get it yet?

 FlingitNow wrote:

So first we have a Psyker unit is a unit that has the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers rule. Find me such a unit anywhere in any codex (remembering they need and explicit rule stating that the unit has the rule not the models as usual).

Eh?

Doesn't it say in the rules somewhere that single models are still units by themselves?

I know independent characters that aren't joined to squads are units of one model.


Without wishing to sound offensive, I think you're the one who needs to revisit the rulebook.

They are units of 1 model. But the unit and modelare still separate entities rules wise. So again if you don't understand rules don't try to use them to justify your argument.

 FlingitNow wrote:
They are units of 1 model. But the unit and modelare still separate entities rules wise.

Eh?

I'm not sure you even know what you're talking about any more.

How can they possibly be separate entries? A IC psyker is a model wth the psyker special rule. But, if he's alone on the table, then he's also a unit (of one) with the psyker special rule.

No the unit does not know the USR the model knows it. Models and units are defined entities in the rules. Model level rules don't interact with units and vice versa, unless specifically stated. So once again name me a single unit anywhere in the game with the Psyker or BoP USRs?

 FlingitNow wrote:
No the unit does not know the USR the model knows it. Models and units are defined entities in the rules. Model level rules don't interact with units and vice versa, unless specifically stated. So once again name me a single unit anywhere in the game with the Psyker or BoP USRs?

Sorry, but I'm completely unable to follow your logic. By your reasoning, a lone IC apparently cannot have any special rules.

 vipoid wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No the unit does not know the USR the model knows it. Models and units are defined entities in the rules. Model level rules don't interact with units and vice versa, unless specifically stated. So once again name me a single unit anywhere in the game with the Psyker or BoP USRs?

Sorry, but I'm completely unable to follow your logic. By your reasoning, a lone IC apparently cannot have any special rules.

His unit can't he can. Check the what special rules do I have section for an explanation of who has special rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

His unit can't he can.

That is impossible.

 vipoid wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

His unit can't he can.

That is impossible.

Why? Using actual rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

His unit can't he can.

That is impossible.

Why? Using actual rules.

You're saying that a model can have a special rule and yet a unit consisting of that model and nothing else somehow doesn't have that special rule. Could you please explain in more detail how this is even remotely possible?

Surely, at the very least, the unit has that special rule because every model in the unit (all one of them) has that rule?

We know the model has the special rule because the rules tell us they do. Do you have any rules telling us that the unit has the special rule? Or indeed in anyway defines what special rules units have?

In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.

You do have a way to determine warp charges. It would be 0 for a mixed unit, as it is not a psyker unit. The phase still works fine, you would just sacrifice any Psyker's abilities that joined a unit for that turn. Stop trying to claim that one model losing an ability is more important than another; that is a completely subjective matter.

 FlingitNow wrote:
We know the model has the special rule because the rules tell us they do. Do you have any rules telling us that the unit has the special rule?

Why wouldn't it? The unit consists of a single model with those rules, ergo the unit has those rules.

You seem desperate for this not to work and I'm struggling to understand why.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Or indeed in anyway defines what special rules units have?

You tell me. You're the one making really bizarre assumptions regarding what rules units have or don't have.

Also, if indeed you're right, then all you seem to have done is disproved your own point - clearly the IC character rules cannot possibly be fine.

Why would it? This is a permissive ruleset the unit only has Special Rules that the rules tell us it has. You're making the claim that because a model in a unit has the rule therefore the unit does. For this to be the case you need to find the rule telling you this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.

You do have a way to determine warp charges. It would be 0 for a mixed unit, as it is not a psyker unit. The phase still works fine, you would just sacrifice any Psyker's abilities that joined a unit for that turn. Stop trying to claim that one model losing an ability is more important than another; that is a completely subjective matter.

Please tell me using actual RaW what Warp charge the following units generate:

Eldrad (lvl4) in a unit of Dire Avengers.

Eldrad (lvl4) on his own

Draigo (lvl2) in a unit of Strikes (lvl1)

I'm guessing you get 1 out of 3 correct RaW.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why would it? This is a permissive ruleset the unit only has Special Rules that the rules tell us it has. You're making the claim that because the only model in a unit has the rule therefore the unit of that one model does. For this to be the case you need to find the rule telling you this.

Fixed that for you.

Also, you realise that by your logic, no unit can ever have a special rule?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please tell me using actual RaW what Warp charge the following units generate:

Eldrad (lvl4) in a unit of Dire Avengers. None

Eldrad (lvl4) on his own 4

Draigo (lvl2) in a unit of Strikes (lvl1) 1

I'm guessing you get 1 out of 3 correct RaW.

Yes no unit ever has a special rule. Why does that surprise you? Also it is not my logic but clearly what the rules state. The rules state models have special rules therefore models have special rules. The rules do not state that units have special rules therefore they don't.

You got 1 out of 3 correct RaW. The other 2 are RaW also both zero as none of them are not pskyer units.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why would it? This is a permissive ruleset the unit only has Special Rules that the rules tell us it has. You're making the claim that because a model in a unit has the rule therefore the unit does. For this to be the case you need to find the rule telling you this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.

You do have a way to determine warp charges. It would be 0 for a mixed unit, as it is not a psyker unit. The phase still works fine, you would just sacrifice any Psyker's abilities that joined a unit for that turn. Stop trying to claim that one model losing an ability is more important than another; that is a completely subjective matter.

Please tell me using actual RaW what Warp charge the following units generate:

Eldrad (lvl4) in a unit of Dire Avengers.

Eldrad (lvl4) on his own

Draigo (lvl2) in a unit of Strikes (lvl1)

I'm guessing you get 1 out of 3 correct RaW.

Dire Avenger unit = 0 WC

Solo Eldrad = 4 WC

Strikes unit = 1 WC

Still works, just not optimal for Psyker heavy armies, just like the JSJ issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes no unit ever has a special rule. Why does that surprise you? Also it is not my logic but clearly what the rules state. The rules state models have special rules therefore models have special rules. The rules do not state that units have special rules therefore they don't.

You got 1 out of 3 correct RaW. The other 2 are RaW also both zero as none of them are not pskyer units.

This is false. Also units do have special rules. Go read the Eldar Codex, plenty in there.

Again wrong on 2 counts. As none are psyker units as defined in the BrB. If they were psyker units (skipping over the RaW fail there) then there is literally no way to determine the answer to the first or last examples.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This is false. Also units do have special rules. Go read the Eldar Codex, plenty in there.

Care to quote that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example note page 96 point 10.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Again wrong on 2 counts. As none are psyker units as defined in the BrB. If they were psyker units (skipping over the RaW fail there) then there is literally no way to determine the answer to the first or last examples.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This is false. Also units do have special rules. Go read the Eldar Codex, plenty in there.

Care to quote that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example note page 96 point 10.

Dire Avengers are not a unit with the Psker special rule. No ML

Eldrad is a unit with the Psyker special rule. ML 4

Strikes are a unit with the BoP special rule. ML 1

Relevant rules are listed in their profiles.


Look at any Aspect Warrior unit in the Eldar Codex and read for yourself what special rules they have.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Oberron wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Oberron wrote:
Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?

If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.

He isn't rejoining in the assault phase he is moving to the head of the group in the assault phase. Sorry for the confusion.

Cool so he's not in the unit at all just running near them. As he can't make the thrust move if part of the unit.

You still seem to be misunderstanding. He can make the thrust move if part of the unit. "while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows the rules for characters."

Under characters pg 100 Characters and Moving "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in (pg 19)."

Eldrad is a unit with the Psyker special rule. ML 4

Strikes are a unit with the BoP special rule. ML 1

Relevant rules are listed in their profiles.


Look at any Aspect Warrior unit in the Eldar Codex and read for yourself what special rules they have.

Those rules are for the MODELs in the unit check the rules. Please provide ANY rule that states a unit has a special rule. I'll take this as your concession as you are just stating things already proven false.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oberron wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Oberron wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Oberron wrote:
Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?

If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.

He isn't rejoining in the assault phase he is moving to the head of the group in the assault phase. Sorry for the confusion.

Cool so he's not in the unit at all just running near them. As he can't make the thrust move if part of the unit.

You still seem to be misunderstanding. He can make the thrust move if part of the unit. "while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows the rules for characters."

Under characters pg 100 Characters and Moving "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in (pg 19)."

Yes you have to follow the rules for their unit type not break those rules. Breaking rules is not following rules.

The rules are listed in the UNIT entires, on the UNIT data cards. They are for the UNIT.

Yes you have to follow the rules for their unit type not break those rules. Breaking rules is not following rules.

Hilarious. But, in this case no. IC are specifically told that they follow the rules for ICs. The rules for IC's tell them to move as their MODEL type, even when joind to another unit.

The rules are listed in the UNIT entires, on the UNIT data cards. They are for the UNIT.

Yet the rules don't say this as you know. So why are you stating things you know to be untrue? It is not helpful for the discussion. As we know from page 96 that those rules are the special rules that the MODELS in the unit have, which matches up with the BrB section on "what special rules do I have". So again please quote any rule that states a unit has special rules.

Hilarious. But, in this case no. IC are specifically told that they follow the rules for ICs. The rules for IC's tell them to move as their MODEL type, even when joind to another unit.

Model type doesn't exist. Unit types do and they are a model level rule. However thrust move is a unit level rule and thus requires the entire unit to have the rule for it to work. So you stillhave to follow that rule when attached.

Now do you have any actual rules to support your baseless assertations?

Fling, could one not argue that if a model has a special rule, the unit possess said rule, much like units and wargear?

For example, if I buy a Tac Squad and upgrade one model to have a Meltagun, couldn't an argument be made that the Tac Squad has a Meltagun? If so, then I could argue that a unit has the Fleet special rule if just one model has the special rule.

Of course all of this has nothing to do with a Destroyer Lord thrusting in the Assault phase, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

 Happyjew wrote:
Fling, could one not argue that if a model has a special rule, the unit possess said rule, much like units and wargear?

For example, if I buy a Tac Squad and upgrade one model to have a Meltagun, couldn't an argument be made that the Tac Squad has a Meltagun? If so, then I could argue that a unit has the Fleet special rule if just one model has the special rule.

Of course all of this has nothing to do with a Destroyer Lord thrusting in the Assault phase, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

You could say that, but it is not RaW. The unit does not fleet because A model has fleet. Essentially we have no way of knowing what properties a unit has based on the models properties. For instance say a Commissar Lord joins your tactical squad does the tactical squad have the Astra Militarum faction for triggering PE for instance?

When precision doesn't matter it does no harm to say the imprecise phrase "this tactical squad has a meltagun", in other cases it is not so appropriate.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The rules are listed in the UNIT entires, on the UNIT data cards. They are for the UNIT.

Yet the rules don't say this as you know. So why are you stating things you know to be untrue? It is not helpful for the discussion. As we know from page 96 that those rules are the special rules that the MODELS in the unit have, which matches up with the BrB section on "what special rules do I have". So again please quote any rule that states a unit has special rules.

Hilarious. But, in this case no. IC are specifically told that they follow the rules for ICs. The rules for IC's tell them to move as their MODEL type, even when joind to another unit.

Model type doesn't exist. Unit types do and they are a model level rule. However thrust move is a unit level rule and thus requires the entire unit to have the rule for it to work. So you stillhave to follow that rule when attached.

Now do you have any actual rules to support your baseless assertations?

Are you delusional? (serious question) Have you even been reading the posts? (again, serious)

"while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows the rules for characters."

Under characters

"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in..."

"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type..."

"...models of their type..."

Yes model of their type, meaning unit type, unless you have another type you think it is referring to? If so please explain what type and where these are defined.

I've noticed you've neglected to mention your bizarre claim that units have special rules this time and again refuse to post or reference any rules that support your increasingly bizarre claims.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes model of their type, meaning unit type, unless you have another type you think it is referring to? If so please explain what type and where these are defined.

I've noticed you've neglected to mention your bizarre claim that units have special rules this time and again refuse to post or reference any rules that support your increasingly bizarre claims.

WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.

I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes model of their type, meaning unit type, unless you have another type you think it is referring to? If so please explain what type and where these are defined.

I've noticed you've neglected to mention your bizarre claim that units have special rules this time and again refuse to post or reference any rules that support your increasingly bizarre claims.

WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.

I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.

Guys, let's keep this polite. What is being said, and that I don't think you're recognizing is that, generally speaking, units don't have special rules. Generally speaking, individual models within a unit have special rules. The Psyker rules tend to be broken because there is not a single UNIT in the game with the Psyker special rule. There are plenty of MODELS with it, but no UNITs.

So combine the rule quote there.

"while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows // the movement rules for models of their type (Jet Pack Infantry), whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in..."