Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/09 11:23:50
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
|
I've seen some people talk about using a Necron Destroyer Lord in a unit of Wraiths or Praetorians. He starts at the front, the wraiths move ahead in their movement (keeping in coherency), and then the lord uses his JSJ move to get back in front in the assault phase.
Is this legal?
I thought the entire unit had to be made up of JSJ models in order to make a JSJ move?
|
blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/09 12:19:20
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Fireknife Shas'el
Lisbon, Portugal
|
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.
just like psyker model-unit situation, this has been discussed a lot and, AFAIK, no consensus has been achieved.
|
AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
Unit1126PLL wrote:"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"
Shadenuat wrote:Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/09 12:28:36
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/09 22:58:19
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
FlingitNow wrote:Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/09 23:01:52
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Auspicious Daemonic Herald
|
Fragile wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
The rules for IC say they become a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes. He no longer is his own unit. He is now part of a unit that isn't a jet pack unit.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/09 23:05:29
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
Fragile wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
He's talking about when the DLord is attached to the Wraith unit not when he is a jetpack unit. Unless you are claiming I can always target ICs in units as they remain separate units on their own?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 00:52:12
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
CrownAxe wrote:Fragile wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
The rules for IC say they become a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes. He no longer is his own unit. He is now part of a unit that isn't a jet pack unit.
Good to know that Psyker ICs can no longer use any powers while attached to a nonPsyker unit.
Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 01:05:48
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
|
Fragile wrote: CrownAxe wrote:Fragile wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
The rules for IC say they become a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes. He no longer is his own unit. He is now part of a unit that isn't a jet pack unit.
Good to know that Psyker ICs can no longer use any powers while attached to a nonPsyker unit.
Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole.
This is a known issue with the Psyker rules. It's also totally irrelevant to the current discussion, but nice try at derailing the Jet Pack discussion.
If a Destroyer Lord joins a unit that is not composed of Jet Pack models, he remains a Jet Pack Infantry model, but the unit is not a Jet Pack Unit and can't elect to perform a thrust move. The only way for a Jet Pack IC to perform a thrust move is to be alone OR to Join a Jet Pack unit.
Another solid question is whether or not a Necron Lord on foot attached to a unit of Destroyers is allowed to participate in a thrust move. After all, he counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes and it's an action the unit elects to take. No mention of models is ever made...
"A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase."
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 01:10:48
Subject: Re:Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Confessor Of Sins
|
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639352.page
Last time it came up.
RaW: Jet-Pack Units trusting - No
Jump-Pack Units moving/charging - Yes
|
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 01:18:27
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Kriswall wrote:
If a Destroyer Lord joins a unit that is not composed of Jet Pack models, he remains a Jet Pack Infantry model, but the unit is not a Jet Pack Unit and can't elect to perform a thrust move. "
Prove that he is no longer a Jet Pack Unit.
He counts as part of the other unit, but nothing states he loses any status or special rules he has.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 02:05:35
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch
|
Tau drones in broadsides squads jump around all of the time, and noone has contested this for years.
The second Necrons do it everyone cries. Go figure.
|
Aftermath can be calculated.
Dark humor is like food, not everyone gets it. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 02:55:33
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Auspicious Daemonic Herald
|
Fragile wrote: CrownAxe wrote:Fragile wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
The rules for IC say they become a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes. He no longer is his own unit. He is now part of a unit that isn't a jet pack unit.
Good to know that Psyker ICs can no longer use any powers while attached to a nonPsyker unit.
Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole.
The poorly designed psyker rules does not give you permission to ignore the clearly written IC rules
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 03:52:13
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
|
Lord Commissar wrote:Tau drones in broadsides squads jump around all of the time, and noone has contested this for years.
The second Necrons do it everyone cries. Go figure.
I've never played the Broadside Drones like that. The Broadside unit isn't a Jet Pack unit. As such, the unit can never make a thrust move. Automatically Appended Next Post: Fragile wrote: Kriswall wrote:
If a Destroyer Lord joins a unit that is not composed of Jet Pack models, he remains a Jet Pack Infantry model, but the unit is not a Jet Pack Unit and can't elect to perform a thrust move. "
Prove that he is no longer a Jet Pack Unit.
He counts as part of the other unit, but nothing states he loses any status or special rules he has.
Prove that he's a separate unit.
“If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (Interactive Edition).” v1.0. Games Workshop, 2014. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
So, if an IC is the last surviving model of a unit he has joined, he again becomes a unit of one model. This is a nice way of telling us that while he's joined to a unit, he isn't a unit of one model. In fact, we are explicitly told he counts as a part on the joined unit for all rules purposes.
If you have a Captain joined to a Tactical Squad, how many units are on the table? One, not two.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/10 03:59:02
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 09:26:58
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
|
CrownAxe wrote:
The poorly designed psyker rules does not give you permission to ignore the clearly written IC rules
Unless you're a psyker, it seems.
|
blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 09:42:15
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Deranged Necron Destroyer
|
Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
|
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 12:36:45
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
Oberron wrote:Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." ( pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 13:12:41
Subject: Re:Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Screaming Shining Spear
|
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
I think if we all can agree that as thrust move is movement? This is clearly allowing all type specific movement by an IC while in a unit.
|
4000 points: Craftworld Mymeara |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 13:40:38
Subject: Re:Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
|
extremefreak17 wrote:Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
I think if we all can agree that as thrust move is movement? This is clearly allowing all type specific movement by an IC while in a unit.
This doesn't change that thrusting is a unit level decision and the Wraith Unit doesn't have the option to thrust.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 13:46:48
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 14:44:34
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
|
FlingitNow wrote:They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
|
blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 15:03:03
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote:They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 15:05:37
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
|
FlingitNow wrote: vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote:They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
My point is that this seems like 'one rule for some, another rule for others'.
|
blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 15:51:47
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote: vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote:They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
My point is that this seems like 'one rule for some, another rule for others'.
Nope it seems that the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW so we have to change them to work. The fact that RaW the Destroyer Lord can't thrust move with Wraiths does not break an entire phase. It merely means an unfluffy combo no longer works together and is most likely why GW changed the unit type of Destroyers in the first place...
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 17:30:36
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Deranged Necron Destroyer
|
FlingitNow wrote:Oberron wrote:Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." ( pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.
He isn't rejoining in the assault phase he is moving to the head of the group in the assault phase. Sorry for the confusion.
|
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 17:41:46
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Screaming Shining Spear
|
FlingitNow wrote: vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote:They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
I would say its the rules for ICs joining units that are broken.
|
4000 points: Craftworld Mymeara |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 17:42:21
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
Oberron wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Oberron wrote:Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." ( pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.
He isn't rejoining in the assault phase he is moving to the head of the group in the assault phase. Sorry for the confusion.
Cool so he's not in the unit at all just running near them. As he can't make the thrust move if part of the unit. Automatically Appended Next Post: extremefreak17 wrote: FlingitNow wrote: vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote:They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
I would say its the rules for ICs joining units that are broken.
In what way?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/10 17:44:31
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 17:51:14
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Screaming Shining Spear
|
FlingitNow wrote: vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote: vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote:They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
My point is that this seems like 'one rule for some, another rule for others'.
Nope it seems that the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW so we have to change them to work. The fact that RaW the Destroyer Lord can't thrust move with Wraiths does not break an entire phase. It merely means an unfluffy combo no longer works together and is most likely why GW changed the unit type of Destroyers in the first place...
Regardless of whether you think it is an Unfluffy combo or not, or the possibility that GW changed the rule because of fuff reasons (HAHAHAHA), this is still indeed a case of "one rule for some, another rule for others." I doesn't matter how hard it breaks the game/phase/unit, you are still literally interpreting the same mechanic two different ways.
|
4000 points: Craftworld Mymeara |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 17:58:42
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
|
FlingitNow wrote:
Nope it seems that the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW so we have to change them to work.
And who gets to decide what constitutes "broken"?
You're fine with dolling out RAI interpretations for psykers, but not for JSJ unit interactions - which some could argue are also broken. e.g. You obviously thin psykers not being able to use their powers because they've joined a unit is silly, and yet you're fine with Jetpack units not being able to use their abilities because they joined a unit.
Exact same problem, but you say one requires a RAI interpretation, the other has to be played RAW.
FlingitNow wrote:The fact that RaW the Destroyer Lord can't thrust move with Wraiths does not break an entire phase.
Nor does psykers not being able to cast when in units.
If I want to use my destroyer lord's JSJ movement, I need to either put him in a JSJ unit, or elde have him alone. Likewise, if you want your psykers to use their powers, you have to either put them in a psychic unit, or else have them alone.
Again, the issue is the same in both cases, but you want the solutions to be different.
|
blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 18:03:09
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
vipoid wrote: FlingitNow wrote:
Nope it seems that the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW so we have to change them to work.
And who gets to decide what constitutes "broken"?
You're fine with dolling out RAI interpretations for psykers, but not for JSJ unit interactions - which some could argue are also broken. e.g. You obviously thin psykers not being able to use their powers because they've joined a unit is silly, and yet you're fine with Jetpack units not being able to use their abilities because they joined a unit.
Exact same problem, but you say one requires a RAI interpretation, the other has to be played RAW.
FlingitNow wrote:The fact that RaW the Destroyer Lord can't thrust move with Wraiths does not break an entire phase.
Nor does psykers not being able to cast when in units.
If I want to use my destroyer lord's JSJ movement, I need to either put him in a JSJ unit, or elde have him alone. Likewise, if you want your psykers to use their powers, you have to either put them in a psychic unit, or else have them alone.
Again, the issue is the same in both cases, but you want the solutions to be different.
In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW. Automatically Appended Next Post: Regardless of whether you think it is an Unfluffy combo or not, or the possibility that GW changed the rule because of fuff reasons (HAHAHAHA), this is still indeed a case of "one rule for some, another rule for others." I doesn't matter how hard it breaks the game/phase/unit, you are still literally interpreting the same mechanic two different ways.
Not really the Psychic phase rules are broken top to bottom the easiest fix for that also enables psykers to cast when in non-psyker units. The IC rules aren't broken so why change them? And yes GW seem to largely change rules to represent the fluff and break up power combos. They've been doing that since day 1. Buffmander & Riptide meet 7th Ed, Buffmandergravstar meet new faction allies, Tigirius Farsightbomb etc.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/10 18:10:11
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/10 18:40:02
Subject: Necron Destroyer Lord JSJ
|
 |
Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
|
FlingitNow wrote:
In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.
Surely RAW you'd only get the warp charges from psykers who are either on their own or in a unit of psykers? Annoying, certainly, but I'm not seeing the issue that breaks the phase or prevents them from ever casting even when alone.
In any case, you're again making the grandiose assumption that it's the psychic phase that's broken - rather than the IC rules.
But, again, this is just your opinion. You've just decided that it's the psychic phase that's broken and that we should change the wording of that. When, in fact, changing the IC rules would fix the psychic phase and interactions like JSJ units.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/10 18:40:27
blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
|
 |
 |
|