US court backs hold on Obama immigration action

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**whembly**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I agree. We can't deport all these people, but we also shouldn't let them off the hook.

We don't have to deport them all. When it is no longer economically viable for them to remain here they will leave, and it's an easy fix;
- no social security for illegal immigrants
- no medicare/medicaid for illegal immigrants
- no public school/tuition for illegal immigrants
- no driving licenses for illegal immigrants
- no government ID for illegal immigrants
- no public assistance for illegal immigrants
- expand e-verify to prevent employers using illegal immigrants
- jail time and serious fines for each illegal immigrant knowingly employed by a business
- use the money saved supporting illegal immigrants to have more ICE agents inspecting businesses known for employing illegal immigrants (taxi companies, restaurants, etc.)

We definitely need to do all that too.

We also need to allow more people to come here legally. We rely too much on migrant labor from Mexico to go cold turkey.

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.

O.o

Why? It's more efficient to use the huge swath of farmerlands we use now...with GMO crops.

**cincydooley**

hotsauceman1 wrote:

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.

Oh I can't wait for this explanation!

Please, continue!

**Grey Templar**

Yeah, we're not exactly running out of farmland yet. But GMOs definitely.

Fun fact: Cheese is mostly coagulated today using rennet harvested from modified bacteria instead of calf stomachs. Go GMOs!

**hotsauceman1**

cincydooley wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.

Oh I can't wait for this explanation!

Please, continue!

they are grown in the city, requiring less gas to ship.
they can also grow in sometimes twice the rate of normal plants.
they use less water
if they are sterile enviroments, no need for pesticides
they need less soil
They also can be grown Vertically.
Warehouse farming is the future. Especially in places with less fertile land.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, we're not exactly running out of farmland yet. But GMOs definitely.

Fun fact: Cheese is mostly coagulated today using rennet harvested from modified bacteria instead of calf stomachs. Go GMOs!

And insulin is made mugh the same way.

**Relapse**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I agree. We can't deport all these people, but we also shouldn't let them off the hook.

We don't have to deport them all. When it is no longer economically viable for them to remain here they will leave, and it's an easy fix;
- no social security for illegal immigrants
- no medicare/medicaid for illegal immigrants
- no public school/tuition for illegal immigrants
- no driving licenses for illegal immigrants
- no government ID for illegal immigrants
- no public assistance for illegal immigrants
- expand e-verify to prevent employers using illegal immigrants
- jail time and serious fines for each illegal immigrant knowingly employed by a business
- use the money saved supporting illegal immigrants to have more ICE agents inspecting businesses known for employing illegal immigrants (taxi companies, restaurants, etc.)

We definitely need to do all that too.

We also need to allow more people to come here legally. We rely too much on migrant labor from Mexico to go cold turkey.

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.

So you are saying that all food production and distribution should be in the hands of the few corporations that can afford to do this if it was even a remotely possible thing to do? This sounds like the topic of another thread you could start. As someone who grew up on a farm, I'd have a lot to say on the matter.

**Grey Templar**

Indeed, although that really only would apply to places without the fertile land. And hydroponics will be the way to grow food in space.

**Da Boss**

Not to drag this off topic, but there is something to what hotsauce is saying, though it isn't so easy as he supposes.

Farming has costs on the ecosystem beyond the bald land area arguments, and reducing land use for farming is going to be important in the coming decades if we want to preserve the ecosystems we rely on for our survival.

But at the same time it is impractical to think that all, or even a majority, of food could be produced in "sterile warehouses". More sensible land use and more efficient farming is a good idea, though.

On the immigration thing: Wouldn't what you guys are proposing for immigrants result in an underclass? That might not be good for social cohesion.

I always had the image of america as a nation built on immigrants and proud of it's ability to integrate them.

**hotsauceman1**

Da Boss wrote:

On the immigration thing: Wouldn't what you guys are proposing for immigrants result in an underclass? That might not be good for social cohesion.

I always had the image of america as a nation built on immigrants and proud of it's ability to integrate them.

Not really, history is full of us hating immigrants, even legal ones.

**cincydooley**

hotsauceman1 wrote:

they are grown in the city, requiring less gas to ship.
they can also grow in sometimes twice the rate of normal plants.
they use less water
if they are sterile enviroments, no need for pesticides
they need less soil
They also can be grown Vertically.
Warehouse farming is the future. Especially in places with less fertile land.

And what about all the initial start up costs? Large scale vertical farming isn't cheap at the outset.

Further, vertical farming requires a higher degree of intelligence and science than does traditional farming. That's also an increased cost.

Unless you're proposing we hire more immigrants to work in these highly controlled, sterile environments?

**hotsauceman1**

I'm saying it's a highly likely possibility where food production may go, especially with its use of water.
Do I think it will happen anytime soon? No, and but it is a Real possibility and something to look into.

**cincydooley**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
I'm saying it's a highly likely possibility where food production may go, especially with its use of water.
Do I think it will happen anytime soon? No, and but it is a Real possibility and something to look into.

As an alternative, maybe. Or a supplement. But it won't ever replace large scale farming like you indicated it should.

**Grey Templar**

Sure, we were built on immigration. Legal immigration.

But those days are coming to an end. It was a great boon when we were an expanding country that also had a massive need for cheap manual labor. But mechanization has basically killed the need for manual labor everywhere except agriculture.

America is very different economically from where we were 100-130 years ago. China is pretty much the only place with rapidly expanding industry that needs a workforce, except they already have that workforce and don't need to import it like we did.

As for my proposal, it might create an underclass. But only if the children of the illegal immigrants given that sort of punishment didn't move beyond what their parents were doing. And I believe they are actually motivated to do better. I think its very similar to the Asian immigration wave in the last century and a half. They're the descents of the railway workers, but they no longer are our cheap manual labor, they're part of the middle class. Latino immigrants will probably follow a similar path, or we can hope they do.

**Nostromodamus**

As a legal immigrant, now naturalized citizen of the USA I agree with all Dreadclaw has to say.

To see the failboat arguements trying to propose anything else is both hilarious to me and quite insulting.

Get rid of the criminals and if they want to be here they can try to do it the legal way, with all the hassle and expense us law-abiding folks had to deal with.

**hotsauceman1**

cincydooley wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
I'm saying it's a highly likely possibility where food production may go, especially with its use of water.
Do I think it will happen anytime soon? No, and but it is a Real possibility and something to look into.

As an alternative, maybe. Or a supplement. But it won't ever replace large scale farming like you indicated it should.

I think it might in a couple of decades or maybe a century, but not right now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, we were built on immigration. Legal immigration.

But those days are coming to an end. It was a great boon when we were an expanding country that also had a massive need for cheap manual labor. But mechanization has basically killed the need for manual labor everywhere except agriculture.

America is very different economically from where we were 100-130 years ago. China is pretty much the only place with rapidly expanding industry that needs a workforce, except they already have that workforce and don't need to import it like we did.

As for my proposal, it might create an underclass. But only if the children of the illegal immigrants given that sort of punishment didn't move beyond what their parents were doing. And I believe they are actually motivated to do better. I think its very similar to the Asian immigration wave in the last century and a half. They're the descents of the railway workers, but they no longer are our cheap manual labor, they're part of the middle class. Latino immigrants will probably follow a similar path, or we can hope they do.

yeah, me ando a friend where talking about recent shift in perception of Latinos lately.

**Relapse**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
I'm saying it's a highly likely possibility where food production may go, especially with its use of water.
Do I think it will happen anytime soon? No, and but it is a Real possibility and something to look into.

Do you realize what happens when control of food is put into the hands of a few entities, as would happen with your suggested system?

"If you control the food system, you control the people". Henry Kissinger

**Dreadclaw69**

Da Boss wrote:
On the immigration thing: Wouldn't what you guys are proposing for immigrants result in an underclass? That might not be good for social cohesion.

Who do you believe will make up this underclass?

Da Boss wrote:
I always had the image of america as a nation built on immigrants and proud of it's ability to integrate them.

This nation is a nation of immigrants. I'm one of them. A nation of legal immigrants.

**Pendix**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think it might in a couple of decades or maybe a century, but not right now.

I think I heard somewhere that they are trialling this very idea in Toyko.

**Ensis Ferrae**

hotsauceman1 wrote:

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.

Like Soylent Green, Yellow and Red?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:

On the immigration thing: Wouldn't what you guys are proposing for immigrants result in an underclass? That might not be good for social cohesion.

I always had the image of america as a nation built on immigrants and proud of it's ability to integrate them.

If you really take a look at American history... there is a hazing process that needs to be gone through before we'll just outright accept immigrants

**hotsauceman1**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.

Like Soylent Green, Yellow and Red?

Where do you think the immigrants will go?

**Dreadclaw69**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.

Like Soylent Green, Yellow and Red?

Where do you think the immigrants will go?

Illegal immigrants; back to their country of origin

**Ensis Ferrae**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:

to be honest, we need to move away from giant farms and go to genetically modified food grown in sterile warhouses.

Like Soylent Green, Yellow and Red?

Where do you think the immigrants will go?

Illegal immigrants; back to their country of origin

Wow... you completely missed that joke there

**Dreadclaw69**

And the good news just keeps on rolling; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/03/gop-immigration_n_7507158.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — House Republicans voted Wednesday to block the Obama administration from spending any money to defend against a lawsuit over the president's immigration policies.

The 222-204 vote came on an amendment by leading immigration hardliner Rep. Steve King of Iowa to a spending bill for the Commerce and Justice Departments.

House Republicans spent weeks earlier this year trying to overturn President Barack Obama's executive actions from last fall that granted work permits and stays of deportation to millions of immigrants living in this country illegally. The House efforts were unsuccessful, but Republicans have claimed success anyway, noting that the policies have been put on hold by a federal judge in a lawsuit by a group of states seeking to overturn the actions.

More than two dozen states argued that Obama's executive action was unconstitutional.

The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans will hear arguments next month in the lawsuit. King's amendment would block the administration from spending any money to defend against it.

It was one of a handful of immigration-related amendments offered by King and approved by the GOP-controlled House.

By voice vote, the House adopted an amendment that would block spending for trade deals that add visas.

The House also voted 227-198 for an amendment that would block certain federal funds to localities that refuse to report names to federal immigration authorities. That's become an issue in recent months as localities refused to participate in a federal program that turns over the names of people picked up for crimes to federal immigration authorities.

"All we're saying is follow the law. ... They are undermining the rule of law," said King.

Democrats objected to his approach.

"This is not the appropriate bill for this," said Rep. Chaka Fattah, D-Pa.

The spending bill has already drawn a veto threat from the White House over cuts in domestic programs, and the addition of the immigration measures will only harden the administration opposition.

**Nostromodamus**

Awesome