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You basically prove my case and continue to haggle. Odd strategy.

I'm sorry for rudeness, but maybe you should try to say yes you are right. I relent when I'm in error as I'm a slave to the truth which burns like sulfuric acid and care nothing about how I look if I backpedal.

So you're gonna ignore my asking for a source but claim you have the evidence.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Custodes were literally the emperors bodyguard. The IF were the Praetorians of Terra. Got a source for the IF under Sigi being black at Terra? I know he was, but all I can find is 'Sigismund's heraldry had been changed to black to show that he served the Emperor directly, as did the Reclusiarch and his fellow Chaplains.' and then 'The Chapter took upon themselves the black and white panoply of Sigismund's personal heraldry. ' when the Black Templars were formed. The cross could just be personal heraldry for that Custode or something, it's not exactly definitive proof.

I go for that. And I'm not being rude, not seeing it your way at all. You proved my case in addition to the pickelhaubes, iron-cross and them being Empy's praetorians. Thats pretty damn overwhelming evidence.

I haven't proved your case, you've been nothing but rude, and you still haven't given me a source I asked for.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes

First quote by the Emperor in there, "these men are my bodyguards..." (Can't copy paste it with my phone apparently). They definitely were NOT just advisors, they even went with the Emprah to fight the Beast I believe. They were his personal bodyguards and while the IF could have been there, I'm siding with ImAGeek and saying it was more than likely custodes.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I haven't proved your case, you've been nothing but rude, and you still haven't given me a source I asked for.

The Imperial Fists are one of the First Founding Chapters of the Space Marines and were originally the VII Legion of the Legiones Astartes raised by the Emperor Himself from across Terra during the Unification Wars. The Imperial Fists stand out from other Space Marine Chapters since they possess no fixed homeworld, although they are most frequently based on Terra. Instead, the Imperial Fists rely on their 10,000-year-old mobile space fortress, Phalanx, to serve as their fortress-monastery. They maintain recruitment-chapels on various worlds spread throughout the Imperium. Part of the Imperial Fists' duties during the Great Crusade were to function as the Emperor's "personal praetorians", accompanying Him everywhere. The Imperial Fists were usually used to strike a decisive blow against the enemies He confronted during that time. The role of the Emperor's bodyguards since he was mortally wounded during the Horus Heresy and interred within the Golden Throne at the heart of the Imperial Palace on Terra has been entirely taken over by the Adeptus Custodes.

That should be the truth. Not entirely sure where it came from. But should be truth good enough. Sorry if you see me as rude, but I speak the uncolored truth nothing else.

Nope, I asked for a source for the Imperial Fists under Sigismund being black at Terra. And a 'source' without an actual source isn't really a source anyway. The Custodes were created to be the Emperors bodyguard. Collected Visions, pg 45: 'The Legio Custodes was the Emperors personal bodyguard'.

The Imperial Fists might have served as extra bodyguard during the Heresy, but only during the heresy. It was what the Custodes were created for. There were 300 of them who never left the Emperors side, the Companions.

Collected Visions page 364 is perhaps most revelant:
"A flash of light and a feeling of coldness enveloped the Emperor and his two loyal Primarchs, Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius. They had teleported into the Warmaster's flagship. The Emperor took an instant to re-orientate himself and realised that something had gone wrong. He stood in a vast, warped chamber with only a handful of his Custodian Guard in attendance. The other Custodians and the Primarchs were not present."

 Gashrog wrote:
Collected Visions page 364 is perhaps more revelant:
"A flash of light and a feeling of coldness enveloped the Emperor and his two loyal Primarchs, Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius. They had teleported into the Warmaster's flagship. The Emperor took an instant to re-orientate himself and realised that something had gone wrong. He stood in a vast, warped chamber with only a handful of his Custodian Guard in attendance. The other Custodians and the Primarchs were not present."

Ha, didn't even think to look for that. Thanks

Didn't hey split up? I mean Sanguinus somehow got to confront Horus on his own since he is basically lying dead on the floor at Horus' feet. Stop doing wishful thinking.

Seriously are you gonna give me that source or what?

I think it'd be wishful thinking to say they'd split up. I don't think it'd make much sense to split up, there's little chance custodes, no matter how strong they might be, I don't think they could take on Horus, so why split up?

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
I think it'd be wishful thinking to say they'd split up. I don't think it'd make much sense to split up, there's little chance custodes, no matter how strong they might be, I don't think they could take on Horus, so why split up?

Yeah. The Emperor, Sanguinius and Dorn got split up teleporting on. The Custodes who arrived with the Emperor wouldn't have split up from him. Why on earth would they do that?

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
I think it'd be wishful thinking to say they'd split up. I don't think it'd make much sense to split up, there's little chance custodes, no matter how strong they might be, I don't think they could take on Horus, so why split up?

They split up, that was the very fundation of this thingy. Sang is laying dead at the feet of Horus because he confronted him alone. Have you been paying any attention at all? I mean beyond wishful thinking? You are basically like ImAGeek dismissing photographic evidence here.

They split up because Horus split them up, to quote the Bill King story:
"The Emperor rose to the challenge, and he and his surviving Primarchs teleported aboard the Warmaster's battle barge. Horus used his powers to separate the Emperor from his loyal followers. The loyalists were transported to different spots within his hideously altered ship. Sanguinius he had brought directly to his throne room. In his evil cunning the Warmaster offered the Blood Angel a chance to switch sides, reasoning that the winged Primarch's followers would be useful when the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels arrived."

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even confronted with a mountain of evidence you argue your case? The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's praetorians. Thats fluff. They were recalled to be his bodyguard, just use a dictionary and stop arguing because you want things to be a certain way. Argue the truth instead.

You haven't given me one counter-argument other than what I take to be your personal opinion, come in with some evidence, not just what you want. I have given you very good points to why they are Imperial Fists. You haven't given me one argument for them being Custodes. Except they might have colored their armour black AFTER Empy's death.

The IF were recalled because Dorn was instructed to build the defences of the Imperial Palace, being considered the best at decensive siege among the Legions, and had claimed he could build a fortress even Perturabo and Iron Warriors couldn't get through. The IF went with his to garrison the planet, because they travel with their Primarch.

You haven't given a piece of evidence to suggest that the IF were his bodyguards othèr than yelling THAT IS FACT. You haven't given "very good points" either.

They may be Custodes. Why? Because no one knows what they are. They aren't IF, because the IF wore yellow. Sigismund wore black along with the Sword Brethren 1st Company. That's it. Sigismund stayed on Terra at the Emperor's appointment as supreme commander while the Primarchs accompanied him shipward. And IIRC, the teleported up and IIRC it was specified that the IF detachment was Terminators, meaning yellow armour.

That leaves Custodes who are known users of black armour on a wide scale post-heresy. Given that this picture was made during the RT era, when Custodes wore black, not gold, it lends more weight to the idea they are Custodes than IF, given that the Legion ins-and-outs of who wore what colour differently to the normal Legion design was fleshed out or even thought about. RT was the era of "Red=BA, Blue=UM, Yellow=Imperial Fists, Green=Sallies, White=Scars, Black= Raven Guard, Spikey= Chaos.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even confronted with a mountain of evidence you argue your case? The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's praetorians. Thats fluff. They were recalled to be his bodyguard, just use a dictionary and stop arguing because you want things to be a certain way. Argue the truth instead.

You haven't given me one counter-argument other than what I take to be your personal opinion, come in with some evidence, not just what you want. I have given you very good points to why they are Imperial Fists. You haven't given me one argument for them being Custodes. Except they might have colored their armour black AFTER Empy's death.

The IF were recalled because Dorn was instructed to build the defences of the Imperial Palace, being considered the best at decensive siege among the Legions, and had claimed he could build a fortress even Perturabo and Iron Warriors couldn't get through. The IF went with his to garrison the planet, because they travel with their Primarch.

You haven't given a piece of evidence to suggest that the IF were his bodyguards othèr than yelling THAT IS FACT. You haven't given "very good points" either.

They may be Custodes. Why? Because no one knows what they are. They aren't IF, because the IF wore yellow. Sigismund wore black along with the Sword Brethren 1st Company. That's it. Sigismund stayed on Terra at the Emperor's appointment as supreme commander while the Primarchs accompanied him shipward. And IIRC, the teleported up and IIRC it was specified that the IF detachment was Terminators, meaning yellow armour.

That leaves Custodes who are known users of black armour on a wide scale post-heresy. Given that this picture was made during the RT era, when Custodes wore black, not gold, it lends more weight to the idea they are Custodes than IF, given that the Legion ins-and-outs of who wore what colour differently to the normal Legion design was fleshed out or even thought about. RT was the era of "Red=BA, Blue=UM, Yellow=Imperial Fists, Green=Sallies, White=Scars, Black= Raven Guard, Spikey= Chaos.

Stop wishful thinking.

This picture have many points where they are pointed to be Imperial Fists as I have superbly pointed out. I'm right and you are wrong. Just read my previous posts.

 Deadshot wrote:
Given that this picture was made during the RT era, when Custodes wore black, not gold

The pictures not that old, it was made for the Horus Heresy CCG circa 2003, I mentioned RT because there'd been no mention of Custode colours in the interim.

Seriously Beavis I've asked for one source about 4 times now, I'm starting to think you don't have it.

Honestly ImAGeek, the burden of evidence is on you not me. I have presented my mountain of evidence making you look foolish asking source. Just go for Google and Imperial Fists.

I already did that, and I posted here the results of that, that Sigismund and the Chaplains had black armour at Terra, and the Black Templars took on Sigismunds heraldry when they were formed. Nothing about them wearing black at Terra. So now I'd like your source for that, because the burden of proof is now on you really. You've not presented any evidence. You've just stated you're right repeatedly. That's not evidence. I've actually found sources which contradict your 'evidence'.

That evidence said they got up there together, yet they despite your claims got separated during the fighting. Even the picture proves you wrong.

The evidence said the Primarchs were split but some Custodes ended up with the emperor. Nothing about the photo proves that wrong. I never said the Primarchs and the Emperor were together. Just some of the Custodes were with the Emperor.

Even if that bit was wrong (it wasn't) it doesn't invalidate other stuff I found which disproves other stuff you claimed either.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
I think it'd be wishful thinking to say they'd split up. I don't think it'd make much sense to split up, there's little chance custodes, no matter how strong they might be, I don't think they could take on Horus, so why split up?

They split up, that was the very fundation of this thingy. Sang is laying dead at the feet of Horus because he confronted him alone. Have you been paying any attention at all? I mean beyond wishful thinking? You are basically like ImAGeek dismissing photographic evidence here.

So the group that was still with the Emperor would sit up because a freakin primarch (one of the best, actually) dies from Horus in a 1v1. What part of that makes you want to try and 1v1 him as well? And once again, someone should give you a reminder of not being so rude and give false accusations as well.

The problem with the theory that they are Imperial Fists-turned-Black Templars is that (as far as I know), the painting predates that fluff, and nearly all the modern Horus Heresy fluff by many, many years, other than just the basic outline of what happened.

If I remember right in a white dwarf three hundred they are detailed as tactical squads that custodes had.

Custodes had various tactical groups and forces that they used to protect the emperor no doubt the spears would be completely useless in close quarters of a ship.

Even crazier- in the first black and white art of the Emperor vs. Horus from Rogue Trader era, down at the left under the platform is a dead marine with what could only be assumed is the symbol of the Dark Angels on his shoulderpad. You can't see the sword, but the wings are definitely Dark Angels.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even confronted with a mountain of evidence you argue your case? The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's praetorians. Thats fluff. They were recalled to be his bodyguard, just use a dictionary and stop arguing because you want things to be a certain way. Argue the truth instead.

You haven't given me one counter-argument other than what I take to be your personal opinion, come in with some evidence, not just what you want. I have given you very good points to why they are Imperial Fists. You haven't given me one argument for them being Custodes. Except they might have colored their armour black AFTER Empy's death.

You're pretty wrong dude. The HH novels make it pretty clear that the Custodes are the Emperors bodyguard and protectors of the palace. The use of the term 'praetorians' is rather misleading, as while the Praetorian GUARD were the Emperors bodyguard in ancient Roman times, the term Praetorian itself does not mean bodyguard, rather its a derivative of the term 'Praetor' which was a title/rank within the Roman government, essentially the Roman equivalent of a General, as well as the term 'Praetorium' which was the Praetors physical office. Praetorians predate the foundation of the Praetorian Guard, and were traditionally a senior/elite body of troops, typically a sort of private army paid for by the Praetor, separate from the legions (which were paid for by the government), that were often posted as guards at the Praetorium as a symbol of status(similar to the guards at say, Buckingham Palace), but were not necessarily the formal bodyguard of the Praetor himself.

History aside, the reason the Imperial Fists are the Emperors Praetorians is because they alone had the responsibility of fortifying the Imperial Palace, and they served directly under the command of the Emperor at all times, rather than under the command of Warmaster Horus like the other Legions, thus forming the Emperors own personal army. The Custodes themselves were the Emperors true bodyguards, and this is demonstrated several times in the HH novels, as the Custodes are typically seen accompanying the Emperor everywhere and ensuring his security, rather than the Imperial Fists themselves.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even confronted with a mountain of evidence you argue your case? The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's praetorians. Thats fluff. They were recalled to be his bodyguard, just use a dictionary and stop arguing because you want things to be a certain way. Argue the truth instead.

You haven't given me one counter-argument other than what I take to be your personal opinion, come in with some evidence, not just what you want. I have given you very good points to why they are Imperial Fists. You haven't given me one argument for them being Custodes. Except they might have colored their armour black AFTER Empy's death.

The IF were recalled because Dorn was instructed to build the defences of the Imperial Palace, being considered the best at decensive siege among the Legions, and had claimed he could build a fortress even Perturabo and Iron Warriors couldn't get through. The IF went with his to garrison the planet, because they travel with their Primarch.

You haven't given a piece of evidence to suggest that the IF were his bodyguards othèr than yelling THAT IS FACT. You haven't given "very good points" either.

They may be Custodes. Why? Because no one knows what they are. They aren't IF, because the IF wore yellow. Sigismund wore black along with the Sword Brethren 1st Company. That's it. Sigismund stayed on Terra at the Emperor's appointment as supreme commander while the Primarchs accompanied him shipward. And IIRC, the teleported up and IIRC it was specified that the IF detachment was Terminators, meaning yellow armour.

That leaves Custodes who are known users of black armour on a wide scale post-heresy. Given that this picture was made during the RT era, when Custodes wore black, not gold, it lends more weight to the idea they are Custodes than IF, given that the Legion ins-and-outs of who wore what colour differently to the normal Legion design was fleshed out or even thought about. RT was the era of "Red=BA, Blue=UM, Yellow=Imperial Fists, Green=Sallies, White=Scars, Black= Raven Guard, Spikey= Chaos.

Stop wishful thinking.

This picture have many points where they are pointed to be Imperial Fists as I have superbly pointed out. I'm right and you are wrong. Just read my previous posts.

I have, and still not convinced. And you're constant screaming of "I'm right and you are wrong" has distinctly labelled you as some kind of troll or flamebaiter so for now I'm just going to ignore you until you say something intelligent.

Some good evidence above for Custodians based on the CV series and RT stuff.

And one last time Beaviz, they did not consiously split up onboard the battlebarge. They were deliberatly split up by Horus using his powers.
Thats been cannon since whenever. Claiming that somehow Sang wandered off alone to find Horus first or that the IFs stumbled on the Emperor aboard by chance is nonsense.