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 Ratius wrote:
Some good evidence above for Custodians based on the CV series and RT stuff.

And one last time Beaviz, they did not consiously split up onboard the battlebarge. They were deliberatly split up by Horus using his powers.
Thats been cannon since whenever. Claiming that somehow Sang wandered off alone to find Horus first or that the IFs stumbled on the Emperor aboard by chance is nonsense.

Exactly this. The Emperor's plan was to get his best warriors (minus Sigismund who was chosen by Big E to command the ground war, obviously) and make a last ditch lunge at the Warmaster to end it there and then. He got Sanguinius and Dorn, the Custodes, and the Primarch's best warriors (Sanguinary Guard and IF Terminators) and teleported up. Horus used his powers of Chaos and control of the Warp to separate them, allowing his forces to divide and conquer the scrub soldiers, while Emperor spawned with a few close guards, and he planned to either bring Sanguinius over to the Dark Side or kill him.

Just while on my mind, the final battle reminds me of a reversal of the end of Return of the Jedi. Horus being Darth Sideous, The Emperor being Vader and good, Sanguinius being Luke and dead.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even confronted with a mountain of evidence you argue your case? The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's praetorians. Thats fluff. They were recalled to be his bodyguard, just use a dictionary and stop arguing because you want things to be a certain way. Argue the truth instead.

You haven't given me one counter-argument other than what I take to be your personal opinion, come in with some evidence, not just what you want. I have given you very good points to why they are Imperial Fists. You haven't given me one argument for them being Custodes. Except they might have colored their armour black AFTER Empy's death.

The IF were recalled because Dorn was instructed to build the defences of the Imperial Palace, being considered the best at decensive siege among the Legions, and had claimed he could build a fortress even Perturabo and Iron Warriors couldn't get through. The IF went with his to garrison the planet, because they travel with their Primarch.

You haven't given a piece of evidence to suggest that the IF were his bodyguards othèr than yelling THAT IS FACT. You haven't given "very good points" either.

They may be Custodes. Why? Because no one knows what they are. They aren't IF, because the IF wore yellow. Sigismund wore black along with the Sword Brethren 1st Company. That's it. Sigismund stayed on Terra at the Emperor's appointment as supreme commander while the Primarchs accompanied him shipward. And IIRC, the teleported up and IIRC it was specified that the IF detachment was Terminators, meaning yellow armour.

That leaves Custodes who are known users of black armour on a wide scale post-heresy. Given that this picture was made during the RT era, when Custodes wore black, not gold, it lends more weight to the idea they are Custodes than IF, given that the Legion ins-and-outs of who wore what colour differently to the normal Legion design was fleshed out or even thought about. RT was the era of "Red=BA, Blue=UM, Yellow=Imperial Fists, Green=Sallies, White=Scars, Black= Raven Guard, Spikey= Chaos.

Stop wishful thinking.

This picture have many points where they are pointed to be Imperial Fists as I have superbly pointed out. I'm right and you are wrong. Just read my previous posts.

I have, and still not convinced. And you're constant screaming of "I'm right and you are wrong" has distinctly labelled you as some kind of troll or flamebaiter so for now I'm just going to ignore you until you say something intelligent.

I don't flame. I post the truth. Lets iterate. Prussian style helmets, the iron-cross, black armour. All points to the Imperial Fists. And the Custodes unde NO point had black armour. I have not succeeded in finding a description that talks to them as that, so Custodians are out of the window, so stop making up your own fluff.

Did some more digging and Beaviz may have a point. No gloating now

The Crux Terminatus is a stone medallion awarded to highly skilled and experienced Space Marine Veterans. All members of a Chapter trained in the use of Terminator Armour will have been first awarded the Crux Terminatus. These badges, set into the left shoulder plate of Terminator armour, are highly distinctive and usually fashioned from stone. In Codex Chapters, members of the chapter's veteran First Company are the exclusive users of Terminator armour.

This Honour appears most commonly as a skull set onto a cruciform shape of red iron or bone. Terminator sergeants often add crossed bones behind the skull, whilst lightning bolts behind the skull are often added for Terminators trained as Assault units wielding lightning claws and thunder hammers with storm shields. Variations include the size and dimensions of the skull and the removal of the crossed lightning bolts or bones or their scale in relation to the shape of the cruciform. The Crux Terminatus is almost always worn on the left shoulder pad, though it may also be worn on one knee pad (this is usually done only in combination with the shoulder pad, however). Legend has it that the first Crux Terminatus ever crafted contained a tiny fragment of the Emperor's own armour within it. Whether or not this is true it means that ancient suits of power armour bearing Terminator Honours are considered even more rare and precious to a Chapter as a result of their reputed connection to the Master of the Imperium.[1]
Variants

Acts of extreme valour among wearers may be rewarded by the replacement of the standard badge by the Crux Argentum - a Terminator badge made from silver and encrusted with gems.

Sergeants, Captains and Librarians have different versions to identify their status. Those awarded with the Crux Terminatus often wear smaller versions when they fight in standard power armour, often hanging them from banners, weapons and belts. It is also usual for them to paint this symbol onto the knee or shin plates of their standard power armour.

A Terminator Captain is among the most highly skilled and experienced warriors humanity has ever produced. In recognition of their achievements, these Marines are allowed the honour of wearing a distinctive badge that incorporates fragments of the Emperor's armour. During his struggle against Horus aboard the Warmaster's battle barge at the climax of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was aided by a squad of Terminators from the Imperial Fists chapter. In recognition of their act of valour, the mortally wounded Emperor ordered that his own suit of armour be taken off and melted down, and its shards incorporated into badges that all Terminator Captains should wear. Therefore all efforts are made to recover the suits of Captains killed in action as the loss of such a relic brings great dishonour to the squad and the Chapter.

They vary from chapter to chapter; among the Space Wolves, for instance, the human skull is replaced by a wolf skull; or by a sword among the Deathwing of the Dark Angels.[2]

Those arent terminators though. What point of Beavis' does that prove?

True but it could be artistic license for the picture.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even confronted with a mountain of evidence you argue your case? The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's praetorians. Thats fluff. They were recalled to be his bodyguard, just use a dictionary and stop arguing because you want things to be a certain way. Argue the truth instead.

You haven't given me one counter-argument other than what I take to be your personal opinion, come in with some evidence, not just what you want. I have given you very good points to why they are Imperial Fists. You haven't given me one argument for them being Custodes. Except they might have colored their armour black AFTER Empy's death.

The IF were recalled because Dorn was instructed to build the defences of the Imperial Palace, being considered the best at decensive siege among the Legions, and had claimed he could build a fortress even Perturabo and Iron Warriors couldn't get through. The IF went with his to garrison the planet, because they travel with their Primarch.

You haven't given a piece of evidence to suggest that the IF were his bodyguards othèr than yelling THAT IS FACT. You haven't given "very good points" either.

They may be Custodes. Why? Because no one knows what they are. They aren't IF, because the IF wore yellow. Sigismund wore black along with the Sword Brethren 1st Company. That's it. Sigismund stayed on Terra at the Emperor's appointment as supreme commander while the Primarchs accompanied him shipward. And IIRC, the teleported up and IIRC it was specified that the IF detachment was Terminators, meaning yellow armour.

That leaves Custodes who are known users of black armour on a wide scale post-heresy. Given that this picture was made during the RT era, when Custodes wore black, not gold, it lends more weight to the idea they are Custodes than IF, given that the Legion ins-and-outs of who wore what colour differently to the normal Legion design was fleshed out or even thought about. RT was the era of "Red=BA, Blue=UM, Yellow=Imperial Fists, Green=Sallies, White=Scars, Black= Raven Guard, Spikey= Chaos.

Stop wishful thinking.

This picture have many points where they are pointed to be Imperial Fists as I have superbly pointed out. I'm right and you are wrong. Just read my previous posts.

I have, and still not convinced. And you're constant screaming of "I'm right and you are wrong" has distinctly labelled you as some kind of troll or flamebaiter so for now I'm just going to ignore you until you say something intelligent.

I don't flame. I post the truth. Lets iterate. Prussian style helmets, the iron-cross, black armour. All points to the Imperial Fists. And the Custodes unde NO point had black armour. I have not succeeded in finding a description that talks to them as that, so Custodians are out of the window, so stop making up your own fluff.

What is your source for the IF having black armour at the battle of Terra, for about the 5th time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
True but it could be artistic license for the picture.

As could the cross on Custodes, or even black armour on Custodes.

 Ratius wrote:
Did some more digging and Beaviz may have a point. No gloating now

The Crux Terminatus is a stone medallion awarded to highly skilled and experienced Space Marine Veterans. All members of a Chapter trained in the use of Terminator Armour will have been first awarded the Crux Terminatus. These badges, set into the left shoulder plate of Terminator armour, are highly distinctive and usually fashioned from stone. In Codex Chapters, members of the chapter's veteran First Company are the exclusive users of Terminator armour.

This Honour appears most commonly as a skull set onto a cruciform shape of red iron or bone. Terminator sergeants often add crossed bones behind the skull, whilst lightning bolts behind the skull are often added for Terminators trained as Assault units wielding lightning claws and thunder hammers with storm shields. Variations include the size and dimensions of the skull and the removal of the crossed lightning bolts or bones or their scale in relation to the shape of the cruciform. The Crux Terminatus is almost always worn on the left shoulder pad, though it may also be worn on one knee pad (this is usually done only in combination with the shoulder pad, however). Legend has it that the first Crux Terminatus ever crafted contained a tiny fragment of the Emperor's own armour within it. Whether or not this is true it means that ancient suits of power armour bearing Terminator Honours are considered even more rare and precious to a Chapter as a result of their reputed connection to the Master of the Imperium.[1]
Variants

Acts of extreme valour among wearers may be rewarded by the replacement of the standard badge by the Crux Argentum - a Terminator badge made from silver and encrusted with gems.

Sergeants, Captains and Librarians have different versions to identify their status. Those awarded with the Crux Terminatus often wear smaller versions when they fight in standard power armour, often hanging them from banners, weapons and belts. It is also usual for them to paint this symbol onto the knee or shin plates of their standard power armour.

A Terminator Captain is among the most highly skilled and experienced warriors humanity has ever produced. In recognition of their achievements, these Marines are allowed the honour of wearing a distinctive badge that incorporates fragments of the Emperor's armour. During his struggle against Horus aboard the Warmaster's battle barge at the climax of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was aided by a squad of Terminators from the Imperial Fists chapter. In recognition of their act of valour, the mortally wounded Emperor ordered that his own suit of armour be taken off and melted down, and its shards incorporated into badges that all Terminator Captains should wear. Therefore all efforts are made to recover the suits of Captains killed in action as the loss of such a relic brings great dishonour to the squad and the Chapter.

They vary from chapter to chapter; among the Space Wolves, for instance, the human skull is replaced by a wolf skull; or by a sword among the Deathwing of the Dark Angels.[2]

The guys in the picture don't wear Terminator Armour. They may be Terminator Veterans, but the source states

a squad of Terminators from the Imperial Fists chapter

. No Terminator Armour, no Terminator.

I gotta side with ImAGeek and Deadshot on this, Custodes makes far more sense and the evidence shown supports this.

It's not even astartes class armor, as mentioned before. It's custodes armor, not regular power armor, and definitely not terminator armor.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Even crazier- in the first black and white art of the Emperor vs. Horus from Rogue Trader era, down at the left under the platform is a dead marine with what could only be assumed is the symbol of the Dark Angels on his shoulderpad. You can't see the sword, but the wings are definitely Dark Angels.

No, it's the old version of the Blood Angels icon, the wings aren't as sharp and angular as the then-Dark Angels ones. (see attachment)

 Ratius wrote:
Did some more digging and Beaviz may have a point. No gloating now

During his struggle against Horus aboard the Warmaster's battle barge at the climax of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was aided by a squad of Terminators from the Imperial Fists chapter. In recognition of their act of valour, the mortally wounded Emperor ordered that his own suit of armour be taken off and melted down, and its shards incorporated into badges that all Terminator Captains should wear.

To the Astartes the Crux Terminatus commemorates the sacrifice of a single Imperial Fist Terminator who attempted to save the Emperor and was brutally killed in short order by Horus. The Imperial Guard however believe that it was a Guardsman named Ollanius Pius.

The most recent version of the story however - Collected Visions, page 365 however changes it (and all other references to marines) to a Custode.

Granted.

Well Gdub does like have 2 possible answers to a questions these days.

Going by the death mask knee pad and hawk head badges that are on the marines. Theyre probably custodes. The templar cross is probably a personal honour thing.

As for calling them black armour, well Id say it was more the unpainted armour Dorn raided from Mechanicus.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Even crazier- in the first black and white art of the Emperor vs. Horus from Rogue Trader era, down at the left under the platform is a dead marine with what could only be assumed is the symbol of the Dark Angels on his shoulderpad. You can't see the sword, but the wings are definitely Dark Angels.

These days theres probably a few from every chapter in on the assault. But it's more likely a blood drop than a dagger.

A bit late to the party

The crux terminatus connection is non-existent. Why would the dudesmen in the picture have a crux terminatus if the crux wasn't implemented until after the conclusion of the heresy? duh.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The more I look the more sure I am they're probably Custodes. The SoH on the other side have proper space marine armour where as theirs isn't much like it. And the Custodes did go with the Emperor, they're in the newer version of the picture too, the Neil Roberts one:

Spoiler:

and if Custodes were black in Rogue Trader it might explain the black.

You tend to be wrong about a lot of stuff, they are almost certainly the Imperial Fists. The ones under Sigismund colored their armour black during the Battle for Terra, they are the Imperial German chapter/legion, the iron-cross is even present. Whats left is personal interpretation. And even there fluff lends to my side. The Imperial Fists were Empy's praetorians and never left his side. So its like 99% certainly they are Imperial Fists.

In truth the emperors praetorian's were the Blood Angels they always accompanied him in battle (but his final battle). The IF were the protectors of terra.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even confronted with a mountain of evidence you argue your case? The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's praetorians. Thats fluff. They were recalled to be his bodyguard, just use a dictionary and stop arguing because you want things to be a certain way. Argue the truth instead.

You haven't given me one counter-argument other than what I take to be your personal opinion, come in with some evidence, not just what you want. I have given you very good points to why they are Imperial Fists. You haven't given me one argument for them being Custodes. Except they might have colored their armour black AFTER Empy's death.

The IF were recalled because Dorn was instructed to build the defences of the Imperial Palace, being considered the best at decensive siege among the Legions, and had claimed he could build a fortress even Perturabo and Iron Warriors couldn't get through. The IF went with his to garrison the planet, because they travel with their Primarch.

You haven't given a piece of evidence to suggest that the IF were his bodyguards othèr than yelling THAT IS FACT. You haven't given "very good points" either.

They may be Custodes. Why? Because no one knows what they are. They aren't IF, because the IF wore yellow. Sigismund wore black along with the Sword Brethren 1st Company. That's it. Sigismund stayed on Terra at the Emperor's appointment as supreme commander while the Primarchs accompanied him shipward. And IIRC, the teleported up and IIRC it was specified that the IF detachment was Terminators, meaning yellow armour.

That leaves Custodes who are known users of black armour on a wide scale post-heresy. Given that this picture was made during the RT era, when Custodes wore black, not gold, it lends more weight to the idea they are Custodes than IF, given that the Legion ins-and-outs of who wore what colour differently to the normal Legion design was fleshed out or even thought about. RT was the era of "Red=BA, Blue=UM, Yellow=Imperial Fists, Green=Sallies, White=Scars, Black= Raven Guard, Spikey= Chaos.

Stop wishful thinking.

This picture have many points where they are pointed to be Imperial Fists as I have superbly pointed out. I'm right and you are wrong. Just read my previous posts.

I have, and still not convinced. And you're constant screaming of "I'm right and you are wrong" has distinctly labelled you as some kind of troll or flamebaiter so for now I'm just going to ignore you until you say something intelligent.

I don't flame. I post the truth. Lets iterate. Prussian style helmets, the iron-cross, black armour. All points to the Imperial Fists. And the Custodes unde NO point had black armour. I have not succeeded in finding a description that talks to them as that, so Custodians are out of the window, so stop making up your own fluff.

Flaming; Posting something with the intention of starting arguments

"I'm right, you're wrong." "Where's the evidence you haven't shown me?! (Even though I conveniantly haven't shown mine)." "I only speak the truth, straight from the Emperor's own backside, yiu're just maiing stuff up."

If you are not deliberately trying to start fights or irritate, you're doing a hell of a good job anyway.





Ratius, I'm going to say that its a very good find on that, and a good suggestion, but I'm also going have to say no dice. The bottom of the second paragraph mentions that the first Crux is said to contain a fragment of the Emperor's armour. While there could be a number of suits it refers to, I believe either the 5th or 6th Ed Codex also addresses this rumour, and states it to be the one he fought Horus. I don't have a book on hand but maybe Lexicanum will cite it? I'm in work on my lunch right now so can't check myself. That would indicate, assuming its the final armour suit, that the Crux is a post-Heresy device. Certainly going off the FW range of models, neither the Cataphractii or the Tartaurus pattern armour has a Crux, nor any of the unique variants such as the Justaerin or Gorgon pattern armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further evidence for being Custodes: The two guys on the right both bear a red shield with a golden eagle's head on their left shoulder, the same hereldric device on the Emperor's tilt plate in that image.

The Emperor's Children were the only Legion permitted to wear the Aquila at the GC era, as it was the Emperor's personal hereldry. The III Legion were granted an enormous honour and took great pride in the award. The Aquila wasn't started to be use until the MK7 armour as a general device for Loyalists. The Mk7 was first introduced at the tail end of the Heresy when Dorn secured a handful of unpainted suits from Mars and equipped them to the IF. That said, these suits are clearly NOT Mk7 in any shape or form, and unpainted ceramite ranges in fluff from dark grey to almost white (both the Grey Knights and Death Guard have been described as having unpainted armour, particularly the DG because Mortarion hates decoration, and who wore grey/silver and white armour). Definitely not black.

I doubt the Emperor would be going around telling Loyalists to paint this badge on the armour ti show Loyalty at such a critical stage, so it stands to reason they already had it. Besides the EC, the only other group of Astartes or Astartes-like figures that would be permitted to wear His personal heraldry are the Custodes.

Yeah Im reconsidering my own thesis at this point
I do still think they're Custodes however.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The crux terminatus connection is non-existent. Why would the dudesmen in the picture have a crux terminatus if the crux wasn't implemented until after the conclusion of the heresy? duh.

It's not a Crux Terminatus in the post-Heresy sense, its just the generic veteran cross that was in use with many legions prior to the Heresy.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

I don't flame. I post the truth. Lets iterate. Prussian style helmets, the iron-cross, black armour. All points to the Imperial Fists. And the Custodes unde NO point had black armour. I have not succeeded in finding a description that talks to them as that, so Custodians are out of the window, so stop making up your own fluff.

Also, not to add fuel to the fire, but the continued claims as Prussians equal imperial fists isn’t really true either. If by Prussian you mean the Prussian style of military organization and tactical warfare implemented under Clausewitz, it would probably be present in all space marine armies, as the structures and organizations are still used in modern militaries today, as it was one of the first military doctrines to incorporate factors outside of the battle field into the stratagems and philosophies of modern western warfare. It was a direct answer to the futility of Napoleonic tactics in the face of the exponential rise of battlefield technology.
As far as the "Prussian" aesthetic, do you mean the Teutonic or Iron Cross motif? That style of cross first originated during the crusades in Knights form the Central Europe area known as the Order of Teutonic Knights. Their trappings were adopted by the Holy Roman Empire and the Teutonic forces in the Middle Ages as a direct link to religious legitimacy and heritage. (Also, that isn’t a crux terminatus as it is too small, it is probably a veteran cross as the Imperium Adopted the Iron Cross to mean Veterancy to lend to 40ks sinister bureaucracy vibe. It was used as such by all inheritors of the Holy Roman Empire and Hapsburg controlled countries like Prussia, Austria, Luxembourg and Germany in the 19th century. It was also heavily used by the Germans in WWI, and in WWII specifically for the purpose of denoting military valor.) Or do you mean the Black and Gold Color scheme, because again this was first implemented by the Holy Roman Empire in central Europe. (The official sigil of the Holy Roman Holy Roman Emperor was a crowned gold eagle on a black background) Or the rounded helm with the spike on it? This was Prussian in design, and later adopted by German forces after the unification of Germany and the adoption of Clausewitz’s military philosophy. Because of the propaganda in American and Britain in WWI this style of helmet became synonymous with the German Empire and its “insatiable craving for Imperial dominance”. Also it was used by Nazi Germany. It’s why the rounded flare helmet is used in “bad guy” depictions in pop culture, such as Star Wars Imperial Troops and Officers? Or do you mean the ubiquitous presence of the eagle? The Eagle was a symbol for Rome and the stylized eagle was adopted by both Russia and the Holy roman Empire, who thought that they were both the inheritors of the legacy of Rome in a way (The Russian Tzar comes from Caesar ). True all of these things are Prussian in a way, but a more apt term would be Gothic. Gothic is indicative of styles that came from the central (read German) part of Europe. It was an original term describing the tribes of Goths or barbarian in roman times and eventually the term evolved to mean anything that came from the central part of Europe that was not distinctly classical or roman in appearance or nature. The entire setting has been termed as gothic because it borrows from elements of classical gothic culture, like the cathedralesque look to most buildings, the clothing and appearance of must human military officers (not rank and file guard), especially commissars (Also the term gothic, from a literary perspective, means a satiation that is unwinnable for the protagonist, and conventional notions of good and evil are thrown out of alignment. In these stories success is measured by continued existence. There is no winning, just survival. Examples of this are Frankenstein, Dracula, Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and other 19th century European Horror fiction). So to say the Prussian appearance of the space marine armor means they have to be black clad Imperial Fists is categorically wrong, because that would be like saying, because they are space marines in the general vicinity of Terra, that automatically makes them IF.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even confronted with a mountain of evidence you argue your case? The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's praetorians. Thats fluff. They were recalled to be his bodyguard, just use a dictionary and stop arguing because you want things to be a certain way. Argue the truth instead.

You haven't given me one counter-argument other than what I take to be your personal opinion, come in with some evidence, not just what you want. I have given you very good points to why they are Imperial Fists. You haven't given me one argument for them being Custodes. Except they might have colored their armour black AFTER Empy's death.

The IF were recalled because Dorn was instructed to build the defences of the Imperial Palace, being considered the best at decensive siege among the Legions, and had claimed he could build a fortress even Perturabo and Iron Warriors couldn't get through. The IF went with his to garrison the planet, because they travel with their Primarch.

You haven't given a piece of evidence to suggest that the IF were his bodyguards othèr than yelling THAT IS FACT. You haven't given "very good points" either.

They may be Custodes. Why? Because no one knows what they are. They aren't IF, because the IF wore yellow. Sigismund wore black along with the Sword Brethren 1st Company. That's it. Sigismund stayed on Terra at the Emperor's appointment as supreme commander while the Primarchs accompanied him shipward. And IIRC, the teleported up and IIRC it was specified that the IF detachment was Terminators, meaning yellow armour.

That leaves Custodes who are known users of black armour on a wide scale post-heresy. Given that this picture was made during the RT era, when Custodes wore black, not gold, it lends more weight to the idea they are Custodes than IF, given that the Legion ins-and-outs of who wore what colour differently to the normal Legion design was fleshed out or even thought about. RT was the era of "Red=BA, Blue=UM, Yellow=Imperial Fists, Green=Sallies, White=Scars, Black= Raven Guard, Spikey= Chaos.

Stop wishful thinking.

This picture have many points where they are pointed to be Imperial Fists as I have superbly pointed out. I'm right and you are wrong. Just read my previous posts.

I have, and still not convinced. And you're constant screaming of "I'm right and you are wrong" has distinctly labelled you as some kind of troll or flamebaiter so for now I'm just going to ignore you until you say something intelligent.

I don't flame. I post the truth. Lets iterate. Prussian style helmets, the iron-cross, black armour. All points to the Imperial Fists. And the Custodes unde NO point had black armour. I have not succeeded in finding a description that talks to them as that, so Custodians are out of the window, so stop making up your own fluff.

The Imperial Fists never wore Prussian style helmets, that was the Death Guard.
The cross is a very common Imperial symbol.
Black armour was not worn by the Imperial Fists at the time, but the Custodes did in earlier fluff.
Considering that the armour those guys wearing isn't at all like Space Marine armour, they are evidently not even Space Marines, much less Imperial Fists.
Besides, the only Imperial Fists on Horus' ship were Dorn and a few of his terminators, no ordinary marines.
You have presented zero evidence, so stop making up your own fluff.
It is kinda crazy we get stupid discussions like this over a bit of artwork for a tabletop game.

The cross symbol was kept by the Black Templars, and remains their Chapter symbol to this day.

Funny thing about the Custodes is that, though it is mentioned that their armor will change from red to black following this battle, almost all art of the Custodes depicts them in gold. However, as this is a painting, this may be implied to be something that exists in-universe, and thus will have the artist's (or whoever commissioned said piece) interpretations, allegories, and understanding of the events.

Such things is how we have, IRL, paintings of a blue-eyed, blond-haired Jesus. It's painted for a specific audience, not intended to reflect literal truth.

So the "in-universe" painter of this picture may have known that the Custodes would change their armor from red to black following the Emperor's ascension, and thus painted these figures in that color as a bit of foreshadowing, an homage, an honorific, or any number of reasons, if those are, indeed, Custodes.

Is there really any point to arguing fluff that changes at a whim with GW? For all we know, GW will next week say that those are really beefy Sisters of Battle.
The sure way to find out is to contact the artist somehow and ask him.

Actually both that classic black and white with piles of dead marines under Horus and the one in debate are by Adrian Smith.

The back guys are SoH, the front guys are loyalists, likely custodes. I say that for two reasons:
1) The guy right behind the Emperor has eaglehead on the shoulder but also a small lightning bolt motif.
2) Adrian Smith also did a bunch of the more tradtional Custodes. Note the helmets on the right.

The image already breaks written classic story by having all those other guys in the room. Why are they black? They're....artistic framing devices.
If they were gold and had the pronounced red plumed conical helmets they'd draw the eye away from the focus of the Emperor, Sanguinius' body and Horus; I mean, the giant background eye is distracting enough. Plus it adds to the tension of the whole us vs them final conflict of good and evil, vibe. The red/gold eagles, lightning bolts, wings, eyes of Horus are just enough visual cues to let the viewer identify who is siding with who.

On a side note, the whole piece does quite a lot with only a palette of like 4 basic colors: gold, red, black, white.

Ne, weren't the only guys to wear the Aquila back during the Heresy the Emperor's Children?

Psienesis wrote:
Such things is how we have, IRL, paintings of a blue-eyed, blond-haired Jesus. It's painted for a specific audience, not intended to reflect literal truth.
.

That's interesting - in the UK, he's usually brunette. Still inexplicably white though!

 PondaNagura wrote:
Actually both that classic black and white with piles of dead marines under Horus and the one in debate are by Adrian Smith.

The back guys are SoH, the front guys are loyalists, likely custodes. I say that for two reasons:
1) The guy right behind the Emperor has eaglehead on the shoulder but also a small lightning bolt motif.
2) Adrian Smith also did a bunch of the more tradtional Custodes. Note the helmets on the right.

The image already breaks written classic story by having all those other guys in the room. Why are they black? They're....artistic framing devices.
If they were gold and had the pronounced red plumed conical helmets they'd draw the eye away from the focus of the Emperor, Sanguinius' body and Horus; I mean, the giant background eye is distracting enough. Plus it adds to the tension of the whole us vs them final conflict of good and evil, vibe. The red/gold eagles, lightning bolts, wings, eyes of Horus are just enough visual cues to let the viewer identify who is siding with who.

On a side note, the whole piece does quite a lot with only a palette of like 4 basic colors: gold, red, black, white.

Almost definitely Custodes then, those helmets are identical to the ones in the Horus vs Emperor painting.

Those are suns of horus. Custodes are gold with cone shaped helms.

The only people who were there at the final battle on the loyalist side were sangiunius, emps, random duder(ollianus or whatever) and after the fight dorn made it there.

die toten hosen wrote:
Those are suns of horus. Custodes are gold with cone shaped helms.

The only people who were there at the final battle on the loyalist side were sangiunius, emps, random duder(ollianus or whatever) and after the fight dorn made it there.

The ones on the right aren't SoH. Far too imperial looking, no SoH iconography. Custodes are gold with cone shaped helmets now, but apparantly in Rogue Trader they were black. And the same artist painted some Custodes with identical helmets to the ones they're wearing in this painting. In the newer Neil Roberts painting of the same scene there's also Custodes in the background, so whether they made it to the final battle or not doesn't really matter where artistic license is concerned.

I'm still putting my money on Custodes.

die toten hosen wrote:
Those are suns of horus. Custodes are gold with cone shaped helms.

The only people who were there at the final battle on the loyalist side were sangiunius, emps, random duder(ollianus or whatever) and after the fight dorn made it there.

No, it's pretty well established that the guys on the right are loyalists. It's only up for debate which loyalists they are. SoH are on the left, with Horus. Their armour and iconography are clearly different. The way they are framed, their stance, their juxtaposition to each other... all tell us it's left guys vs. right guys.

One final point. It's an artistic depiction of an event not witnessed by that many people... so that many people can see what happened... kinda. Meaning? Even if GW confirmed 100% who was and wasn't on that bridge during the Emperor and Horus' duel... doesn't change the fact that this particular representation has both traitor and loyal marines there.

I promise they're Imperial Fists. The story and lore both tell that the Emperor brought Dorn and Sanguinius and some Imperial Fists. And the Custodes don't weld conventional legion weapons. They use this bolter-glaive thing, even during the Heresy.

The story also tells that the Emperor took Custodes.

 Gashrog wrote:
Collected Visions page 364 is perhaps most revelant:
"A flash of light and a feeling of coldness enveloped the Emperor and his two loyal Primarchs, Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius. They had teleported into the Warmaster's flagship. The Emperor took an instant to re-orientate himself and realised that something had gone wrong. He stood in a vast, warped chamber with only a handful of his Custodian Guard in attendance. The other Custodians and the Primarchs were not present."

And look at this: http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/images/stories/Colour%205/c_as_2069.jpg by the same artist; they have bolters and look the same past armour colour.

 MAniACK_Magee wrote:
I promise they're Imperial Fists. The story and lore both tell that the Emperor brought Dorn and Sanguinius and some Imperial Fists. And the Custodes don't weld conventional legion weapons. They use this bolter-glaive thing, even during the Heresy.

except everyone got scattered in the teleport to the ship, sanguinius got there first and died, the emperor got there second and fought horus with the olianus fellow, then dorn showed up to collect the body of the emperor. If the guys in black power armor aren't sons of horus(which they are) then they certainly aren't imperial fists or custodes.

die toten hosen wrote:

 MAniACK_Magee wrote:
I promise they're Imperial Fists. The story and lore both tell that the Emperor brought Dorn and Sanguinius and some Imperial Fists. And the Custodes don't weld conventional legion weapons. They use this bolter-glaive thing, even during the Heresy.

except everyone got scattered in the teleport to the ship, sanguinius got there first and died, the emperor got there second and fought horus with the olianus fellow, then dorn showed up to collect the body of the emperor. If the guys in black power armor aren't sons of horus(which they are) then they certainly aren't imperial fists or custodes.

Custodes were present with the Emperor, they did have black armour at one point in time, and the general equipment also matches that of the custodes (plus they look similar to other drawings this author made of custodes) Therefore it is almost 100% sure they are custodes.