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Basic sentence structure has the 'once per game' modifying the full rule, limiting how many times the entire power is used. If the 'once per game' was at the end of the sentence that would be feasible, albeit not very sensible but I could see the argument for it. With the way the sentence is now, there is no question about what it does.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
How are you making the connection that it can be used again and again for each power that you have previously used? I'm not following that train of thought. There's no wording there that indicates plural. Everything is singular. And like I said, if you try to reuse a different Canticle, that isn't using this Special Rule once per game. That would be using it twice.

You use each Canticle once per game, correct?

Since it does not state 'a single Canticle of the Omnissiah', it's very easy to make the connection that the "once per game" simply is not allowing you to reuse each Canticle more than once.

No it isn't. How are you not registering the difference between "once per game" and "at the start of each turn."
How can you possibly read "once per game" as anything other than once per game?

The RAW is often not entirely clear, but this isn't one of those times. You're trying really hard to make it obtuse, but it actually isn't. It's absolutely crystal clear if you just read the sentence the way it is written.

 Purifier wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
How are you making the connection that it can be used again and again for each power that you have previously used? I'm not following that train of thought. There's no wording there that indicates plural. Everything is singular. And like I said, if you try to reuse a different Canticle, that isn't using this Special Rule once per game. That would be using it twice.

You use each Canticle once per game, correct?

Since it does not state 'a single Canticle of the Omnissiah', it's very easy to make the connection that the "once per game" simply is not allowing you to reuse each Canticle more than once.

No it isn't. How are you not registering the difference between "once per game" and "at the start of each turn."

How are you thinking that is the issue here?

Seeing as how it specifically states every other location in the book where you get "a single" of something, I feel like it is not as cut and dry as you're acting. You're looking at the "once per game" part and assuming that it is specific to the ability to reuse a Canticle without looking at the rest of the sentence. Why did they bother to add in the part about you having used it earlier in the game?

How can you possibly read "once per game" as anything other than once per game?

You use each Canticle "once per game". Does that mean you can only use Canticles in general once per game, or a single Canticle once per game?

The RAW is often not entirely clear, but this isn't one of those times. You're trying really hard to make it obtuse, but it actually isn't. It's absolutely crystal clear if you just read the sentence the way it is written.

And yet, it's the only place in the book where "a single" is not used as a qualifier.

S please, pardon me if you dislike my reading--but that is very much how it comes across to me at this point.

Also, wrong section of the forum for YMDC arguments?

Why did they bother to add in the part about you having used it earlier in the game?

Because why would you use this rule to throw out a canticle you haven't already used? You can do that without this rule.
You already have a rule saying you can use all canticles once each. This one is for making one of those canticles able to be used twice.
Why would you EVER use it on a canticle you haven't already used? It makes no sense!

 Kanluwen wrote:
S please, pardon me if you dislike my reading--but that is very much how it comes across to me at this point.

once per game you can use a canticle that you have already used.

It' is stating that it is a single. The word "single" isn't needed, since it's already defined as a canticle. And this rule can be used only once per game. You cannot in any way shape or form use "a" of something "once per game" and use more than one. It is directly contradictory. Your explanations make no sense. You're citing things that are refuting your claims. But whatever. I don't have to play against you, thank God.

 Purifier wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
S please, pardon me if you dislike my reading--but that is very much how it comes across to me at this point.

once per game you can use a canticle that you have already used.

It' is stating that it is a single. The word "single" isn't needed, since it's already defined as a canticle. And this rule can be used only once per game. You cannot in any way shape or form use "a" of something "once per game" and use more than one. It is directly contradictory. Your explanations make no sense. You're citing things that are refuting your claims. But whatever. I don't have to play against you, thank God.

Apologies if you think I'm being some kind of rules lawyering dick; but that's the way it reads to me. I don't hang around in YMDC or usually argue rules--but in this case I'm digging my heels in.

You can play it how you want; but seeing as how everywhere else in the book when referring to a singular it actually says "a single"--the fact that this is the ONE PLACE where it does not specifically call out "a single" supports my argument.

Feel free to make a thread in YMDC though and we can continue this.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Feel free to make a thread in YMDC though and we can continue this.

I'd rather just slam my head against a real brick wall, thank you very much.

Can we get back on track regarding peoples' thoughts on the power level of the new admech books and the white dwarf formation?

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Can we get back on track regarding peoples' thoughts on the power level of the new admech books and the white dwarf formation?

They is powerful. They is awesome. They beat eldar. Which is even awesome-er.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

Why would you request more points? It's not like the skitarii players get more points than you do...

All hail our new admech overlords, which, being new, is a lot more fun to face down than eldar, that just have a bunch of already-existing models that picked up a Mario super mushroom.

Also the super formation inherently stops the army from spamming something boring, instead forcing the admech player to have a lot of unique units including a mix of vehicles and infantry. I love facing lists with lots of moving parts rather than say...6th's "wave serpents A thru G" style lists.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

Not bitter. I don't face eldar. We don't have "them" in our group, nor allow it. And I would never conform to that. I don't make eldar players let me have 1000 pt extra to make up for d cannon bs. That's pretty scrappy of you to want. And shows the fear they put in you. I'm just happy eldar have been knocked off the pedistal of top dog.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

Why would you request more points? It's not like the skitarii players get more points than you do...

Simple: the Skitarii/Admech/Knight WD formation lets you get unit upgrades and relics for free. I don't have a problem with this in principle, so long as the other player has an equvalent points amout compensated to them for the cost the upgrades and relics would create.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

Why would you request more points? It's not like the skitarii players get more points than you do...

Simple: the Skitarii/Admech/Knight WD formation lets you get unit upgrades and relics for free. I don't have a problem with this in principle, so long as the other player has an equvalent points amout compensated to them for the cost the upgrades and relics would create.

Playing eldar, you don't deserve them. I'd never play a player tha requested that. It's not a rule. Sounds like eldar players are bitter, not being top dog.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

Why would you request more points? It's not like the skitarii players get more points than you do...

Simple: the Skitarii/Admech/Knight WD formation lets you get unit upgrades and relics for free. I don't have a problem with this in principle, so long as the other player has an equvalent points amount compensated to them for the cost the upgrades and relics would create.

Most of the Relics and Wargear/Special Issue items for Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus aren't exactly game-breaking--even at the cost of "Free".

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

Why would you request more points? It's not like the skitarii players get more points than you do...

Simple: the Skitarii/Admech/Knight WD formation lets you get unit upgrades and relics for free. I don't have a problem with this in principle, so long as the other player has an equvalent points amout compensated to them for the cost the upgrades and relics would create.

Playing eldar, you don't deserve them. I'd never play a player tha requested that. It's not a rule. Sounds like eldar players are bitter, not being top dog.

To be fair, eldar don't have that much experience with NOT being the top army.

Especially for anyone who started them in the past 2+ years!

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

Not bitter. I don't face eldar. We don't have "them" in our group, nor allow it. And I would never conform to that. I don't make eldar players let me have 1000 pt extra to make up for d cannon bs. That's pretty scrappy of you to want. And shows the fear they put in you. I'm just happy eldar have been knocked off the pedistal of top dog.

Ooooh, so edgy! Careful there, you should be careful with sharp objects! You might just get hurt.

Seriously, banning an entire faction is taking things a little too far, don't you think? What's next, you'll ban Necrons? Tau? Skitarii/Admech?

I'm not afraid of any faction, so long as the armies are on a similar level of power and on an even playing field. As I explained earlier, I would want to be given compensation for the free relics and unit upgrades that specific formation provides. For example, they get 1500 points, I get 1850. They get 1850, I get 2000. It's the same standard I would apply to the Daemon factory list. Outside of that formation and the Skitarii taxi service, I don't have any problems with Skitarii/Admech.

I'm actually glad that GW has decided to release a new faction to the game. But I wouldn't be hopeful about any other armies being at the same power level, if the rumors are anything to go by.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Most of the Relics and Wargear/Special Issue items for Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus aren't exactly game-breaking--even at the cost of "Free".

Yes, yes I know, but it's the principle of the thing, darn it!

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I for one am happy to hear this. If an army has to be super powerful, and on top, if it's not eldar, it's ok in my books. I'd face it any day, unlike how I'd walk away from eldar players.

Somebody's bitter!

I for one intend to avoid the Skitarii taxi service unless I'm playing in a tournament. I'll gladly play against the free upgrades and relics formation...if I get 500 extra points. And I can bring a Wraithknight. Sounds like the setup for the ages!

Why would you request more points? It's not like the skitarii players get more points than you do...

Simple: the Skitarii/Admech/Knight WD formation lets you get unit upgrades and relics for free. I don't have a problem with this in principle, so long as the other player has an equvalent points amout compensated to them for the cost the upgrades and relics would create.

This is not logical.

The AdMech player enters a 1850 point game using the War Convocation formation. They have a 1850 point army, via using the formatin special rule that allows a uniue method of wargear selection.
The (Insert Your Faction Here) player enters a 1850 point game against the AdMech player. They have an 1850 point army also, to fit the constraints of the points limit set by the game.

Taking 500 extra points, in absence of an official rule that allows this, is breaking the rules by going over the points limit, as you are taking a 2350 point list to an 1850 point game.

 Verviedi wrote:
This is not logical.

The AdMech player enters a 1850 point game using the War Convocation formation. They have a 1850 point army, via using the formatin special rule that allows a uniue method of wargear selection.
The (Insert Your Faction Here) player enters a 1850 point game against the AdMech player. They have an 1850 point army also, to fit the constraints of the points limit set by the game.

Taking 500 extra points, in absence of an official rule that allows this, is breaking the rules by going over the points limit, as you are taking a 2350 point list to an 1850 point game.

You, sir, have made an even greater logical error: taking my post seriously!

Like I said, I don't have a problem with Skitarii or Admech. The new WD formation is fine as far as balance goes. I just might err on the side of bringing a Wraithknight (within the agree upon points limit of course) when facing down that formation, as I don't consider it particularly "friendly". But that's just my opinion. YMMV.

There's no reason to ask for more points based on 'free upgrades'. I wouldn't ask for 250pts if someone used the Blood Angel Vanguard Formation and I wouldn't do that here. I'd be surprised if I didn't laugh in their face if someone was asking for something like that.

Banning an entire faction is also ridiculous. People too scared to play a game? That's just sad.. Certainly wouldn't be a place I spend my time even though I still haven't gotten a game with the new Eldar in. Been having way too much fun with CSM...

But, both of these viewpoints will say loads about the AdMech. It will soon become endless hate when a player DARES to play AdMech, never mind that they might have been waiting for it to become a faction (or two...) since they got into 40k in general. And because you have dared to play a powerful army, you must gimp yourself ALWAYS. It is ABSOLUTELY the fault of the player that the troops choices can have kinda-D weapons.

Why can't we buck up and just play the game? Use tactics and strategy against these powerful armies and if it doesn't work, take the loss like an adult. And/or don't play for money. Losing a game isn't the worst thing in the world. And it's not like these two armies have been out long enough to get genuinely frustrated at losing against them.

having played the formation a few times now, I would have to say what makes that formation really good is not the free upgrades. Those dont have the biggest impact on the game and only gain you marginal utility. In general, this gives your onagers IWND and either the icarus or neutron gun; you get triple plasma on your vanguard and triple arquebus on your rangers; your sgts get a 4++ invuln; and your unit of kataphrons get BS 2 for snapshooting (considering your dominus is with them); and you pass out +1 leadership when relevant.

Thats the relevant stuff. Yeah you can take an arc maul and arc pistol on your vanguard alpha along with the pater radium... but this will matter how often? Thats the majority of the free points, they just dont matter.


The REAL power of that formation is having your knight and skitarii be affected and count towards canticles. Thats the real strength of the formation: Popping the +3 BS while giving your entire army stealth/shrouded for two turns in a row is pretty damn good.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
There's no reason to ask for more points based on 'free upgrades'. I wouldn't ask for 250pts if someone used the Blood Angel Vanguard Formation and I wouldn't do that here. I'd be surprised if I didn't laugh in their face if someone was asking for something like that.

Banning an entire faction is also ridiculous. People too scared to play a game? That's just sad.. Certainly wouldn't be a place I spend my time even though I still haven't gotten a game with the new Eldar in. Been having way too much fun with CSM...

But, both of these viewpoints will say loads about the AdMech. It will soon become endless hate when a player DARES to play AdMech, never mind that they might have been waiting for it to become a faction (or two...) since they got into 40k in general. And because you have dared to play a powerful army, you must gimp yourself ALWAYS. It is ABSOLUTELY the fault of the player that the troops choices can have kinda-D weapons.

Why can't we buck up and just play the game? Use tactics and strategy against these powerful armies and if it doesn't work, take the loss like an adult. And/or don't play for money. Losing a game isn't the worst thing in the world. And it's not like these two armies have been out long enough to get genuinely frustrated at losing against them.

I did admit that my "extra points allowance" was a non-serious comment taken a bit too far. Still, your point holds. There's no reason why one player should have extra points over the other simply because of one player's army setup.

I think that the internet's collective attention has finally shifted to Skitarii/Admech. First it was Necrons, then Eldar, and now that the new formation has caught everyone's attention, Skitarii/Admech.

Every army has less-than-friendly or even overpowered builds. Eldar D-weapons, Scatbikers, and the Wraithknight; Necron Canoptek Harvest, Centstar, Pentatyrant, the list goes on. Outside of abusing the allies matrix for drop pod shenanigans, I don't think Skitarii/Admech/Imperial Knights are overpowered. You could make the argument, however, that some units/army builds are not suited for friendly/casual play, just like with any army.

Again, like you said, people simply haven't played against the new armies enough to develop effective tactics and strategies to counter them.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It will soon become endless hate when a player DARES to play AdMech, never mind that they might have been waiting for it to become a faction (or two...) since they got into 40k in general. And because you have dared to play a powerful army, you must gimp yourself ALWAYS. It is ABSOLUTELY the fault of the player that the troops choices can have kinda-D weapons.

I really hope that won't be the case as I fall into that category of having waited for Admech to be a playable faction for... over a decade? *counts on his fingers and toes* Yeah over a decade. I dont want to feel ashamed *Not that I will* for my love of cyberized religious nutters who have to bust out their hymn book whenever they want to microwave a space burrito.

Are Admech as a "Faction" strong? Yeah but they have their weaknesses. Is the formation strong? Ehhh yeah, but its not autowin, I'd say. That people are not focusing on what actually makes it strong *see canticles across the board* and just seeing "FREE UPGRADES" and freaking out with "ERMAH GAWD FREEH POINHTZ OP". I will give that it is intimidating, there no two ways about that.

I think in time as people become familiar with them that the shock value will die out because it just that, shock value. Not just a new codex but a entirely new playable race, people generally don't like new, it unfamiliar and therefore scary. I for one will continue my praising of the Omnissiah.

I feel like certain Admech units are just a bit too expensive for what they do.

- Take Electro-priests, bad units in everyway.
- Infiltrators and Ruststalkers... I want to like them but their cost...
- Breachers which will never have torsion cannons on because of their cost. Arc rifles are the weapon of choice, but why take them when ya can get cheaper Vanguard.
- Dunecrawlers I feel torn about, on one hand more of them make them better. But I don't want three... especially in a squad where they can't splitfire.

And I can't help but feel that Skit/Mech formation with free upgrades is GW's way of making these overcosted units worth it.... by giving you free upgrades on your good ones.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
There's no reason to ask for more points based on 'free upgrades'. I wouldn't ask for 250pts if someone used the Blood Angel Vanguard Formation and I wouldn't do that here. I'd be surprised if I didn't laugh in their face if someone was asking for something like that.

Banning an entire faction is also ridiculous. People too scared to play a game? That's just sad.. Certainly wouldn't be a place I spend my time even though I still haven't gotten a game with the new Eldar in. Been having way too much fun with CSM...

But, both of these viewpoints will say loads about the AdMech. It will soon become endless hate when a player DARES to play AdMech, never mind that they might have been waiting for it to become a faction (or two...) since they got into 40k in general. And because you have dared to play a powerful army, you must gimp yourself ALWAYS. It is ABSOLUTELY the fault of the player that the troops choices can have kinda-D weapons.

Why can't we buck up and just play the game? Use tactics and strategy against these powerful armies and if it doesn't work, take the loss like an adult. And/or don't play for money. Losing a game isn't the worst thing in the world. And it's not like these two armies have been out long enough to get genuinely frustrated at losing against them.

I did admit that my "extra points allowance" was a non-serious comment taken a bit too far. Still, your point holds. There's no reason why one player should have extra points over the other simply because of one player's army setup.

By that logic there is no reason why an army should have a better resurrection protocols just because of one player's army setup.

So if you face me with a Decurion Necron, I get a 6+ RP to all my units too. Fair?

I'm curious to see how the War Convocation pans out the moment people get used to the new rules. The 2 batreps by FLG, Reece's opponents had no clue about the army's abilities.

My gaming group has banned the use of both Ad Mech armies so they are in the 'ridiculous tier' along with Eldar and Space Marines

SGTPozy wrote:
My gaming group has banned the use of both Ad Mech armies so they are in the 'ridiculous tier' along with Eldar and Space Marines

So your gaming group has banned AdMech, Eldar, and Space Marines? Sheesh, wow.

SGTPozy wrote:
My gaming group has banned the use of both Ad Mech armies so they are in the 'ridiculous tier' along with Eldar and Space Marines

Your group has banned Space Marines, but not Necron? Feels like someone with some influence there is a Necron player.

And why not just say Admech can't ally with anyone that can give them a drop pod? There is really nothing that strong about Ad Mech, except when they get taxi'ed. I can understand the outrage about that, but the army itself? Jeebus. What's next? Orks banned? "Alright guys, we've decided that everyone gets to play only Sisters. We sure are good at balance!"