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Heresy! You condemn us with your voice of logic and reason! Now go back to whining about high about high prices with the masses before you actually make people start thinking!

I guess if customers are constantly whining at prices, it's for a reason. You suggest the understanding of prices' level is more or less reserved to people who think.... That's just utterly ridiculous.

Whether you've been diplomed of Cambridge or not, you can undestand pretty easily that this is just wallet-fethin :

http://www.games-workshop.com/fr-FR/Blood-Angels-Sanguinary-Priest-2014

Where is your argument of logic and reason now?

Yeah I gotta go with the OP on this one.

These prices are ridiculous. I mean I'm still pretty new, so there are no halcyon days of cheap-ish metal minis for me, but I'm not a fool that blindly throws money away.

I don't care how you cut it, the price of any given model in GWs range is fantastically high, and unreasonably so. No amount of bits or poses or castellated boots can justify the blatant gouging that GW engages in with every release.

To assert otherwise is to admit that you are either stupid, have too much money, or both!

I have just returned to the hobby after nearly a decade break. It is very painful to pay these prices and build up an army. (Well, maybe, more like 3 armies.heh heh)
But it is a one time buy. For the most part.

What gets me (and why i left in the first place) is the 'planned obsolesce' that is GW's business model. I have now replace a codex that was bought 10 months ago. And because I am building up a few armies, it's going the get worse. (I have kids that will be playing.)
And how fast was 6th thrown out the window?

Yes the places are high, but that would be okay if there wasn't this high turn around.

GW logic:

If you can't get at least half a dozen games with your codex in the span of 21 months, you shouldn't be playing this game.

Yeah! The turn over is really what kills you!

I haven't even owned my codex for a full year yet. I feel sorry for those who just got into the game and bought a codex.

Just last week I was looking at buying AsM and Devs, to fill out an allied detachment, well maybe not last week, but it was before the new kits came out. Now its like well gak, I could have bought paint too, but now I'm just paying for fancy boots and up jumped chainswords?

Hypothetically speaking of course! There is no way in hell I'm buying those kits now.

And that's the thing, I know the prices suck, but as a new player I was ready to accept the fact that having a hobby wasn't cheap. I went out and got my armies, books, dice, all that, and then it was like suddenly the veil was lifted and I realized I had come to the table far far too late.

I'm kind of a freak, I'm sure some have noticed, and I really felt like this hobby was something I could be passionate about. I wanted to get out there and meet like minded people, I wanted something in my life that was more than video games and TV. Now, don't get me wrong, I have plenty in my life to be happy about, I'm strictly speaking from an entertainment perspective! I know I'm not the only guy out there who isnt fulfilled by sports or woodworking or whatever modern men do for fun, I mean have you ever read the list of hobbies on Wikipedia? The for men one is especially funny. Its like society thinks men my age are all white hat douche crew or spiffy hipsters. Forbes thinks I'm either sewing or pounding grey goose, but I digress.

I thought this hobby could be a positive influence in my life and maybe even be the sort of thing I could enjoy with my kids when that time comes. Now I see that while this may be the case for some lucky few among us, it is no longer the case now. I understand those pained looks I see in former long time fans faces, because its a good thing gone down the tubes. Everything is so corporate now, there is no consideration for anything except the almighty dollar. Its sad to see such a vibrant hobby become so marginalized and exploited.

I was looking forward to enjoying 40k in an active way for a long time, but now it seems I'm the only one getting any satisfaction out of it.

Tl;dr: I might as well masturbate. Its a bit cheaper... Lol!

I picked up 2 of the new devastator boxes a couple of days ago, and it's worth mentioning that you get SEVEN torso fronts and SIX leg sets, two of which posable. Plus 2 of each heavy weapon, 1 combi (with all options, one of each possible pistol, and one of each possible cc weapon.

One of those torsos is a very cool new one, with an armored plated tabard.

Since most people who will buy devastator marines will buy two boxes (as you want 4 heavy weapons of your choice), this actually lets you build 12 complete devastators -- and still have 2 spare torsos. Since the sergeants don't carry heavy weapons, with extra bits from other boxes that the vast majority of space marine players have, you can easily get yourself a 3 full squads of devastators with 4 each of heavy weapons -- to do this, you need 12 legs, 12 torsos, and 3 sets of 4 weapons. Then, you need 3 sergeants. But since those will NOT be carrying heavy weapons, you can just use pieces from other boxes.

One 1 grav cannon squad, 1 missile launcher squad, and 1 lascannon squad out of 2 boxes of Devastators is pretty good!

@darkcloak - I had to chuckle when I read your post. Codex: Space Marines is 2 years old, by the way, and the consensus by the people who actually enjoy space marines as their faction of choice is that this is a good book with plenty of worthwhile stuff. But the world of 40k is in a constant state of change in terms of the meta, so armies and models are really the big cost as you accumulate more stuff to deal with ever-changing threats and different people with different factions and playstyles. A reasonable expectation for 40k, in my opinion, is $500-$900 to build a well-planned army, and an ongoing investment of $250-$500 a year in new stuff. If you enjoy variety, double that. Now, I dunno how to break this to you man, but there are not many forms of entertainment comparable in price than television, video games, and masturbation. Hope you find a hobby or game that is more to your liking and budget.

For the price of 10 Assault Marines I got enough French and British to play Waterloo (too much really). Is each Assault Marine worth the cost of 48 1/72 foot soldiers? Not really, those foot soldier will have a lot more time on the board too.

Heck I could buy 16 black powder 28mm infantry for the price of 1 Assault Marine. They are also worth more in game terms. They also look amazing.

So yea, every update it confuses me. I can understand buying them though, I purchased Harlequins because they looked awesome. Recently won a painting competition with them. But ultimately they were still a rip off.

It is incredible that a company that posted a 11 million pound sales decline and is looking at posting an even worse decline in sales (reported to me that it is in the ball park of 13 million pounds) suddenly decides that eventually all 5 man units will cost between $70 to $80 Australian

AND

10 man sets up to $90 to $100 per unit is suddenly going to perceived sale increases.

GW is in its death spirals and can't recover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
For the price of 10 Assault Marines I got enough French and British to play Waterloo (too much really). Is each Assault Marine worth the cost of 48 1/72 foot soldiers? Not really, those foot soldier will have a lot more time on the board too.

Heck I could buy 16 black powder 28mm infantry for the price of 1 Assault Marine. They are also worth more in game terms. They also look amazing.

So yea, every update it confuses me. I can understand buying them though, I purchased Harlequins because they looked awesome. Recently won a painting competition with them. But ultimately they were still a rip off.

That hokey plastic platinum Ad Mech that cost $62 Aussie is a prime example, for $1 more I can pick up an entire 10 man pox of Chaos Space Marines. This just crazy how GW comes up with these dodgy decisions.

 Talys wrote:
I picked up 2 of the new devastator boxes a couple of days ago, and it's worth mentioning that you get SEVEN torso fronts and SIX leg sets, two of which posable. Plus 2 of each heavy weapon, 1 combi (with all options, one of each possible pistol, and one of each possible cc weapon.

One of those torsos is a very cool new one, with an armored plated tabard.

Since most people who will buy devastator marines will buy two boxes (as you want 4 heavy weapons of your choice), this actually lets you build 12 complete devastators -- and still have 2 spare torsos. Since the sergeants don't carry heavy weapons, with extra bits from other boxes that the vast majority of space marine players have, you can easily get yourself a 3 full squads of devastators with 4 each of heavy weapons -- to do this, you need 12 legs, 12 torsos, and 3 sets of 4 weapons. Then, you need 3 sergeants. But since those will NOT be carrying heavy weapons, you can just use pieces from other boxes.

One 1 grav cannon squad, 1 missile launcher squad, and 1 lascannon squad out of 2 boxes of Devastators is pretty good!

@darkcloak - I had to chuckle when I read your post. Codex: Space Marines is 2 years old, by the way, and the consensus by the people who actually enjoy space marines as their faction of choice is that this is a good book with plenty of worthwhile stuff. But the world of 40k is in a constant state of change in terms of the meta, so armies and models are really the big cost as you accumulate more stuff to deal with ever-changing threats and different people with different factions and playstyles. A reasonable expectation for 40k, in my opinion, is $500-$900 to build a well-planned army, and an ongoing investment of $250-$500 a year in new stuff. If you enjoy variety, double that. Now, I dunno how to break this to you man, but there are not many forms of entertainment comparable in price than television, video games, and masturbation. Hope you find a hobby or game that is more to your liking and budget.

I have front torsos coming out of my ears, They always supply just enough back torso to make enough for a squad

Canknotstandmods/admins wrote:
GW's prices have gone to the skies. Sorry if I am going off on a rant, but for Christ's sake why does a 5-man devastator squad cost 46$, when I can buy a 10-man tactical squad for 40$.
I have just gotten fed up with the pricing of models. Same thing goes for HQ's. Honestly I have seen so many people go over to WM/H because of this. GW wants new players in the hobby, but are shooting themselves in the foot by increasing the prices of models. Let's be honest here we know they have no business ethic at all shown by their practices. If you got any problems with GW just post replys below. Sorry again for the same argument and the rant just had to get this of my chest.

The same here.
40k players have started to get into WMH.
However, if you compare prices you'll see that WMH is not much cheaper.
Nevertheless, there are a few benefits of moving: tighter rule set, tournament support via Steamroller, smaller armies and thus less costs.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

I have front torsos coming out of my ears, They always supply just enough back torso to make enough for a squad

Actually, Assault Marines come with 10 front 10 back for a 5 man squad (but 5 legs). If you have extra torso fronts, you can get backs on ebay for cheap. They are all the same, too (well almost identical, and not exactly going back forever, but for a very, very long time), and nobody sees the back side of the torso with the backpack/jump pack and all that. I have a lot of extra backs and fronts from old command/devastator boxes, which I raided for parts anyways.

For me, the limiting factor is always the special weapons. Specifically, combi is in very short supply, melta and plasma I buy some extra resin (GW) bits for but am short, and grav is a precious commodity

Part of the issue is that tacticals come in a box of 10 but are often built in a squad of 5. So you want 2 combis/10. And you get 1 each of the special weapons, when often, for 10, you want 2 of the same special weapon. And bikes don't have grav guns :(


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 wuestenfux wrote:

However, if you compare prices you'll see that WMH is not much cheaper.
Nevertheless, there are a few benefits of moving: tighter rule set, tournament support via Steamroller, smaller armies and thus less costs.

For me, saying "it costs less because you get less because you need less" isn't any value at all. If GW published Kill Team in a regular ruleset and made it so that you could play with $100 of models, it wouldn't improve the value of GW models at all. It would just mean that there's a set of rules to play with fewer models.

Now, if you want to play WMH or Corvus Belli because the total price to play the game is lower, because you prefer their rules, or because you don't own a car and can't transport a trunkload of models and terrain,or because you want to play smaller quicker games, or because you prefer the aesthetic -- that makes perfect sense. To say the models are any better value is just lying to yourself, though.

Going by this logic of "amount of dudes" - Butcher3 from Warmachine is overpriced as hell, as you only get 1 character and 2 dogs for 64.47$.

6$ for what the sprues have isn't that bad in my opinion. However, on average the miniature prices are too high overall. Atleast 20% should come off in a blanket manner for me to consider them reasonably priced.

And for the love of god stop with that value argument, because it doesn't hold.

Regarding coming to the hobby too late, this is not the case. Now is actually quite a good time to be in the hobby. Miniature wargames are more popular these days than they were 5 years ago. It's just people who can't perceive anything outside their hometown that give you the illusion of the opposite. "No one in my area plays, therefore game X is dead." - yeah, no.

 Talys wrote:

Now, if you want to play WMH or Corvus Belli because the total price to play the game is lower, because you prefer their rules, or because you don't own a car and can't transport a trunkload of models and terrain,or because you want to play smaller quicker games, or because you prefer the aesthetic -- that makes perfect sense. To say the models are any better value is just lying to yourself, though.

If you get the same enjoyment from another game with a smaller investment, then, by definition, they have greater value.

That said, it becomes subjective at that point.

I needed to say I do agree however that for the price what you get is a game that is quite unbalanced, clunky, and pretty much every publication includes poorly written rules.

The only way to go about the game these days is pretty much how GW has put it infact. They make the tools, us players make the games and agree on things that are unclear. However, that makes the game completely playable in the end.

TO's decide their rules, and one can always ask if something is allowed or banned, and simply choose not to go if the rules aren't for you. With friends you can mostly agree on pretty much anything. Only problem is random pick-up games I guess, never had to play those myself as I have way more friends playing that I possibly have time to play with.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Ad-Mec-Tech-Priest-Dominus

"Value"

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Talys wrote:

Now, if you want to play WMH or Corvus Belli because the total price to play the game is lower, because you prefer their rules, or because you don't own a car and can't transport a trunkload of models and terrain,or because you want to play smaller quicker games, or because you prefer the aesthetic -- that makes perfect sense. To say the models are any better value is just lying to yourself, though.

If you get the same enjoyment from another game with a smaller investment, then, by definition, they have greater value.

That said, it becomes subjective at that point.

Oh, you misunderstand me. Your purchase can be of greater value, sure -- but not the models. Cardboard triangles on plastic bases using free rules gives you the best value of all. But the value of the models is not linked to the number of models the game that demands; the value of the models is what you as an individual value them at, and can be very high as a piece of art or nothing more than the plastic or metal they're made of.

To take a strictly GW example -- if Age of Sigmar has a low point game and a high point game, playing the low point game doesn't magically make the models worth more, and playing the high point game doesn't make the same model suddenly less valuable.


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 jokerkd wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Ad-Mec-Tech-Priest-Dominus

"Value"

This is a perfect example. As a piece of artwork, $36 for Dominus is a steal! Or a rip-off, if you think he's fugly.

But as a game piece? It's a terrible value no matter how you cut it, because a paper triangle costs $0.00000001 and does the same thing. Terrible value! Anything more than a picture printed onto cardboard distributed at $20 for a whole box of everything you need for a 500 models is a ripoff, if you imagine them as game counters.

Look at chess sets. You can buy one at a dollar store for a buck. Or you can go to a specialty store, and spend $500, $5,000, or $15,000 on a chess table with hand-carved pieces. Or more, if they're ivory or marble. But the latter isn't a rip-off -- it's art.

The new devastator squad is $78 dollars australian for 5 models, at that price it's literally barking mad. To give you an idea, its like going into the shop and picking up the kit and taking it to the cashier and while you're trying to give it to him to buy it he starts dancing from foot to foot going "bark bark grrrr woof bark bark". It is off putting to the point that only small children would find it entertaining when looking to buy it. Barking mad, literally. I'd say i hope its working for them, but clearly it isn't.

 Talys wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Ad-Mec-Tech-Priest-Dominus

"Value"

This is a perfect example. As a piece of artwork, $36 for Dominus is a steal! Or a rip-off, if you think he's fugly.

But as a game piece? It's a terrible value no matter how you cut it, because a paper triangle costs $0.00000001 and does the same thing. Terrible value! Anything more than a picture printed onto cardboard distributed at $20 for a whole box of everything you need for a 500 models is a ripoff, if you imagine them as game counters.

Look at chess sets. You can buy one at a dollar store for a buck. Or you can go to a specialty store, and spend $500, $5,000, or $15,000 on a chess table with hand-carved pieces. Or more, if they're ivory or marble. But the latter isn't a rip-off -- it's art.

one of the biggest problems is the price difference in different countries.

i'm sure i wouldn't mind $36 for the magos, but here in sunny oz, it's closer to double that.

people are complaining in countries where they pay maybe 60% of what we pay. it certainly makes me feel justified in having a whinge and moan myself

@jokerkd -- Yeah, I hear your pain man. Frankly, if all models cost twice as much here (in Canada), I'd buy a lot less models (if any), because they wouldn't be as much an impulse buy. Especially the big ones, like IK and Bloodthirster.

To say the models are any better value is just lying to yourself, though.

I didn't say this. At least I didn't mean it.
GW makes definitely the best minis (plastic) in the wargaming miniature universe, in particular when compared with PP (hard plastic or metal) and Corvus Belli (metal).
I just don't like the clampack models that GW makes (e.g. Necron Lord and Cryptek).

The price differences seem to have no rhyme or reason. the Bloodthirster is only about $10-15 more for us. whereas Fateweaver is $25 more.

$96 for one finecast model is fething ridiculous.

I still play because i can afford to (and because i buy from cheaper sellers), but how long before i have hardly anyone to play against?

 wuestenfux wrote:

To say the models are any better value is just lying to yourself, though.

I didn't say this. At least I didn't mean it.
GW makes definitely the best minis (plastic) in the wargaming miniature universe, in particular when compared with PP (hard plastic or metal) and Corvus Belli (metal).
I just don't like the clampack models that GW makes (e.g. Necron Lord and Cryptek).

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you at all Or anyone. I just meant it as a generality.

The clampack models have gotten really expensive, for sure -- though you generally don't buy many, so the impact isn't large. Not only do the armies generally don't have a lot of them, but they're mostly monopose, so there isn't even any point to buying multiples. If you just modelled for fun (not gamed), I can't imagine really buying many of them at all, as the boxed multi model kits now are just as good or better than most of the clam packs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jokerkd wrote:
The price differences seem to have no rhyme or reason. the Bloodthirster is only about $10-15 more for us. whereas Fateweaver is $25 more.

$96 for one finecast model is fething ridiculous.

I still play because i can afford to (and because i buy from cheaper sellers), but how long before i have hardly anyone to play against?

I can only imagine that the person who sets prices for GW was given a body cavity search as he went through customs or some such.

this thread...

No it's true. The only reason I even remotely considered getting back into 40k after 15 odd years was because I was busily crafting some foam armor for a personal project and only then realized "Hey...this reminds me of something..." *Quickly Googles 'Space Marine armour'* and it was just a slippery slope from that point on...

I love Warhammer 40k but I can't buy any more armies. I just can't justify spending $45-$85 for three to five plastic models anymore. I don't really care how much comes in the box, its still plastic. And the new Battleforce is absurd! $100 for a Tactical squad, a mono pose commander and a Dreadnought? It was only $90 for 15 Tac marines, 5 scouts, 5 assault marines and a Rhino a few year ago.

It was $20 for a tac squad when I started. I was ok with $25, $30, $35 and $37 but I just can't do it anymore.

Same story, 2 decades later. This is nothing new. Most of us have been complaining about GW prices since like the beginning of time. While the prices are the highest they have ever been, GW prices have always been high. People have been saying for decades, DECADES that high prices will be the demise of GW. Hell I have been part of those people who have been saying that over 10 years ago. GW has proven all of us WRONG.

Throw enough dung against a wall, it will stick eventually. Keep saying high prices for GW will be the end, it will happen one day. But it will not happen this day. Soon? I don't think so. That was said like 15 years ago, but prices keep going higher and higher, and GW is still around.

Allow this reality to marinate.

This is a hobby. By definition, no hobby is justifiable. You will never win enough tournaments to show why you "needed" this crap. Ive won way more than my share, and I can tell you it ain't ever penciling out.

You also don't do it entirely for the game. Some, like me, definitely do prefer the game aspect but I will tell you my Necrons (for no reason other than I havent moved them recently) are quite the attractive little display in my living room and a good conversation starter. "Yeah, I built those" and "yeah the paints coming along. I gonna do this and that to them..."

And finally the hanging out part of this hobby IS part of the value if you can even call it that. Just the constant discussion and yes, JUSTIFIABLE consternation creates a community.

we all enjoy playing the game. the models are second to none (Sorry Privateer Press fans, but there's no comparison STILL). We love the back story.

We're NEVER at the end of the day going to be able to heap enough "good things" at the alter of judgement and say "This hobby is justified". Because it's a hobby.

At some point you have to fight through that, treat your ten year old models with respect so they will last another ten, and use EBAY and Bartertown.com a ton.

Trust me i have legions purchased in these way for FAR less than retail. So if you need to Justify it (and I exhort you not to try) then go this route. Speaking with your wallet is THE number one way you can impact GW. There is no end to the availability of used models. Embrace it, purchase THOSe and stop buying ANY from the company.

Keep playing, keep enjoying and when ABSOLUTELY forced, okay go ahead and buy a fresh GW model. But otherwise... Meh. Buy from other sources and send your message and your venom THAT way instead of discouraging people from joining what has been a great hobby for me..

@Jancoran - Justification for hobby: I like stamps. Therefore I collect stamps! I like models. Therefore I collect models!

I think doing and buying things that make you happy is an essential part of life in a free, capitalist society, and a motivating factor for earning more money. You spend money on the things you must, then spend money on the things you want. And when you die, you give the unspent money to whomever you choose.

If you want to buy a GW model, do it! If you want to buy stuff from another company because it makes you happy, go for it! The only justification you need is that it brings you a bit of happiness, and that you can afford it.

 Talys wrote:


@darkcloak - I had to chuckle when I read your post. Codex: Space Marines is 2 years old, by the way, and the consensus by the people who actually enjoy space marines as their faction of choice is that this is a good book with plenty of worthwhile stuff. But the world of 40k is in a constant state of change in terms of the meta, so armies and models are really the big cost as you accumulate more stuff to deal with ever-changing threats and different people with different factions and playstyles. A reasonable expectation for 40k, in my opinion, is $500-$900 to build a well-planned army, and an ongoing investment of $250-$500 a year in new stuff. If you enjoy variety, double that. Now, I dunno how to break this to you man, but there are not many forms of entertainment comparable in price than television, video games, and masturbation. Hope you find a hobby or game that is more to your liking and budget.

I'm sorry, you caught me in a rare moment of compassion. I'll try not to let that happen again.

I am completely awed by your estimates. One thousand dollars to play 40k is your "reasonable" expectation? For that much money I could buy a pretty darn good computer, and still have enough money left over to buy whatever games I wanted. Now all the PC buffs are gonna come screaming in here and kill me because they spent 3k on their gaming rig, and there is no way anyone could be satisfied with such a cheap PC but I digress. For that much money, and that much yearly investment you could do any number of things, important things too, like for example if I had a "reasonable" amount of money right now I'd pay my rent in advance and probably buy my wife something nice. If I had $900 on hand and I said to my wife (or anyone for that matter) that I was going to spend all that money on little plastic toys I would get shipped to a hospital immediately to be checked for a brain malady. And that has nothing to do with the stereotypical "toys are for kids" attitude that most men adopt in their later years, that's just good sense. If you said to me right now "Darkcloak, I am going to spend $900 on an army!" I would say "Talys, no! Don't do it" and I would try to talk you down.

As everyone else has pointed out, this is a hobby. It is not justifiable in any way shape or form, nor does it have any real world implications or bearing. As it stands right now, we are a group of adults who pay an exorbitant amount of money to engage in a mere hobby. I understand completely that people will do with their money what they will, but that's not the problem. The problem is this.

I am a 29 year old man who plays tabletop wargames as a means to entertain myself. I'd much rather be gluing something together than draining my brain out through my ears watching TV. I have a (pretty crappy) job, and I make enough money to support myself and my wife, with just enough leftover to spend on entertainment. We aren't poor, we just aren't rich. I am an adult male who plays GW games. Now here is the kicker. GW claims that they manufacture a game designed for children. They also claim that they are not responsible for the actual gameplay of said game because GW is actually a maker of high quality collectibles and not a game company.

High Quality Collectibles...

... for kids?

Okay, right.

Is anyone else seeing the problem here? GW looks you in the eye and says, these toys are for kids. Then they jack the price of these kids toys up so high only people who think $900 is a reasonable amount to pay for an army can afford to buy them. This company spits in your face, and what do you do? Defend them? Buy their crap?

If this is broadly in line with expectations, then yeah fething count me out mates!

If its been said a million times before. does it need to be said again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkcloak wrote:
IAs everyone else has pointed out, this is a hobby. It is not justifiable in any way shape or form, nor does it have any real world implications or bearing. As it stands right now, we are a group of adults who pay an exorbitant amount of money to engage in a mere hobby. I understand completely that people will do with their money what they will, but that's not the problem. The problem is this.

It being a hobby IS the justification for the high price.

Its not a life essential product like water or food that absolutely must be available to everyone.

Otherwise id love to be able to afford collecting cars and go scuba diving EVERY DAY.