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 Crazyterran wrote:
The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

Thanks!

I'd say 165 is not chump change and if you take three squads of barebones scouts, they aren't adding a lot to the army. There is a heavy price in focus, flexibility and fun factor in order to get those free razorbacks/drop pods.

You could take that list: Drop the bike on the chaplain and the command squad replace it with the the formation that is a razorback, command squad and chaplain. Then adjust the points.

No where near as powerful though.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
You could take that list: Drop the bike on the chaplain and the command squad replace it with the the formation that is a razorback, command squad and chaplain. Then adjust the points.

No where near as powerful though.

Nope. That formation is not an auxilliary choice, it's a command choice.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

lustigjh wrote:Could people use this formation to drop a bunch of free empty ob sec drop pods (ghost pods?) on objectives? Not sure if that's a thing or not

Oh yes it is.

And everything in those core formations is Objective Secured, so any purchased dedicated transports (including drop pods) are also objective secured. MWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ugh. As if drop pods weren't cheesy enough as is. This game is becoming so much fuuuuuuuun. ZZZZZZZZZZ.

I better start writing a Ghostbusters list consisting of MSU deep strike Plaguebearers to clean up ghost pods dropped on objectives like shiny metal turds or else find a new hobby.

lustigjh wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

lustigjh wrote:Could people use this formation to drop a bunch of free empty ob sec drop pods (ghost pods?) on objectives? Not sure if that's a thing or not

Oh yes it is.

And everything in those core formations is Objective Secured, so any purchased dedicated transports (including drop pods) are also objective secured. MWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ugh. As if drop pods weren't cheesy enough as is. This game is becoming so much fuuuuuuuun. ZZZZZZZZZZ.

I better start writing a Ghostbusters list consisting of MSU deep strike Plaguebearers to clean up ghost pods dropped on objectives like shiny metal turds or else find a new hobby.

It's not like METAL BOXES and soda cans are hard to kill...and that idea of yours is probably a good counter to it. Also, drop pods aren't OP, just saying.

The free transports thing is neat but it's hardly game-breaking. These are Rhinos and Razorbacks we're talking about, not Wave Serpents or Ghost Arks. Drop Pods, of course, remain strong... but if you put your whole army in pods instead of tanks then you're gonna get mulched by volume of fire from basically anything, especially if you haven't filled out your squads (which is not required by the formation).

Also it's kinda really boring. Snoozeville if you ask me. I'd take a demi-company formation if I could use scouts in an LSS instead of all those friggin MEQ bodies.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
You could take that list: Drop the bike on the chaplain and the command squad replace it with the the formation that is a razorback, command squad and chaplain. Then adjust the points.

No where near as powerful though.

Nope. That formation is not an auxilliary choice, it's a command choice.

Where does it say that? I'm new to this decurion type formation thing.

There's a pair of pages that list the formations and options available to a Decurion and each has a symbol. Auxiliary, Core, Command.

This place is so predictable.

New codex rumours - people whine it's just a reprint
New Codex leaks - people whine too much has been buffed/ nerfed.

 General Kroll wrote:
This place is so predictable.

New codex rumours - people whine it's just a reprint
New Codex leaks - people whine too much has been buffed/ nerfed.

From the link provided I can say that there are some buffs in terms of mobility. I mean you can really hit hard with bikes and stuff but it's not much at all.
On a side note I prefer not to comment till the official release.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
There's a pair of pages that list the formations and options available to a Decurion and each has a symbol. Auxiliary, Core, Command.

I think you mean these.

I'm pretty sure we're allowed to post leaks.
Remove them if they're not, mod. And apologies if that's the case.

But I see them posted every time.. so I'm guessing it's fine.

That's what I mean, yep. They're like the Troops, Heavy Support, HQ etc symbols in the normal lists.

I am not particularly worried, somehow I don't think I am going to encounter many people at my FLGS who are prepared to spend £250 on razorbacks alone.
Although I understand the effect this could have on tournaments, this wont effect 90% of players significantly.

If you use ghost drop pods to capture objectives, I will immediately deduce that you are a total melt.

Everyone talking about how easy DP's and metal boxes are to kill seem to be failing to appreciate that there's like 12 of them in an 1850 list. Sure, you could reliably kill four or five per turn with an extremely optimized, tourny-level list, but at that rate it'd take you three or four turns to clean them all up and you still have the 12+ ObSec marines themselves to take care of. There's only a maximum of 7 turns in a game, gentlemen.

I wouldn't say the new marines are overpowered, but they're going to be tough to beat on maelstrom for a lot of armies.

 General Kroll wrote:
This place is so predictable.

New codex rumours - people whine it's just a reprint
New Codex leaks - people whine too much has been buffed/ nerfed.

Both can be true. They're not mutually exclusive.
The book can be just the same thing including same art and fluff, just with power levels adjusted in poor ways.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
This place is so predictable.

New codex rumours - people whine it's just a reprint
New Codex leaks - people whine too much has been buffed/ nerfed.

Both can be true. They're not mutually exclusive.
The book can be just the same thing including same art and fluff, just with power levels adjusted in poor ways.

You're right. But before, people whine about it being nothing substantial and just a money grab. You don't see that anymore -- the whine is now that the codex is too powerful. Of course, if it weren't you'd have people whining that it's not competitive. Even if it were.

I would argue that both are hyperbole, and the truth lies in the eye of the beholder. If you like your romans in plate mail with bolt guns and power weapons, and enjoy the game, you'll probably like C:SM. Otherwise, buying it is ill-advised -- unless you just want it for competitive or completeness reasons.

Its not like the additions/changes to the book are worth the price tag.

The rules changes alone could have been accomplished by a FAQ and a few pages of formations.

I also doubt the fluff or art got any sort of change/upgrade/addition worth even $5. If the Ad Mech books are anything to go by, the colour scheme guide section is likely a bad joke.

 Blacksails wrote:
Its not like the additions/changes to the book are worth the price tag.

The rules changes alone could have been accomplished by a FAQ and a few pages of formations.

I also doubt the fluff or art got any sort of change/upgrade/addition worth even $5. If the Ad Mech books are anything to go by, the colour scheme guide section is likely a bad joke.

This. 100%

We are being charged a premium for no real substance and minimal balance and quality control within a rapid turn around and release cycle.

 Blacksails wrote:
Its not like the additions/changes to the book are worth the price tag.

The rules changes alone could have been accomplished by a FAQ and a few pages of formations.

I also doubt the fluff or art got any sort of change/upgrade/addition worth even $5. If the Ad Mech books are anything to go by, the colour scheme guide section is likely a bad joke.

I disagree. The formations, stat changes, points changes, and updated special rules. If the amount of lore and art is anything like the Eldar codex, I would see no reason to complain.

I think the company formation will be tough to beat, especially if razorback upgrades are free. 10 TL assault cannons, sheesh. But every other formations kinda "meh". I seriously doubt theres a serious theat from a SM army without formations. An army with just the new tweaks & squadron buffs would get shot off the board & blown out the lgs door.

The formations look good but none of them really appeal to me. I'm a little bummed out. I hope that FW releases some formations or something. I hate that there's only one "core" choice for the Gladius.

Space Marine players complain about the lack of variety in their codex while being given the options to fields infantry mobs, vehicle squadrons, drop pod armies, and biker armies along with a collection of formations.

I'm sitting here with an Ork codex that has 100 fewer pages, removes huge chunks of fluff to be replaced by nothing, costs almost the same as the SM codex, has a single formation, and took away a lot of the variety of the previous codex.

I don't see any reason to complain why your codex is underpowered.

I am interested in seeing how these changes to the SM codex will affect small point and large point games. I see vehicle squadrons as a pathway to almost IG levels of tank spam.

There's only a single broken formation, which requires one to fork out money to buy 10 tanks, and EVEN then, eldar is still by far, much stronger.

Other than that, this codex is same old, same old. I don't see any change in the meta.

Pfft, I'll just take the Ork formation with the free transports and laugh.

Oh, we don't get free transports? Well who needs that weak gak, I'll just take the Ork special detachment and kick your ass with an extra Elites slot and hammer of wrath on Ork boyz if they roll a 10 to charge...

Yeah this is pretty stupid.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Pfft, I'll just take the Ork formation with the free transports and laugh.

Oh, we don't get free transports? Well who needs that weak gak, I'll just take the Ork special detachment and kick your ass with an extra Elites slot and hammer of wrath on Ork boyz if they roll a 10 to charge...

Yeah this is pretty stupid.

Ork pride

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/8/26/263430-Army,%20Freehand,%20Orcs,%20Warhammer%20Fantasy.jpg

 j31c3n wrote:
The free transports thing is neat but it's hardly game-breaking. These are Rhinos and Razorbacks we're talking about, not Wave Serpents or Ghost Arks. Drop Pods, of course, remain strong... but if you put your whole army in pods instead of tanks then you're gonna get mulched by volume of fire from basically anything, especially if you haven't filled out your squads (which is not required by the formation).

Also it's kinda really boring. Snoozeville if you ask me. I'd take a demi-company formation if I could use scouts in an LSS instead of all those friggin MEQ bodies.

Boring maybe, but weak and unconcerning, not hardly. No reason to upgrade any of the razorbacks. 10 TL heavy bolters is 30 shots, 25 hits, and wounds most things on a 2 or 3 plus. Any army with exposed 4+ save is going to hate that. Parking them on objectives, why the hell not, they all have objective secured. Massed tankshocking is also an option for those who love to run straight at the enemy. Even LD 10 fails every so often, let alone 9 or 8.

The marine player is basically getting 2000 points in a 1500 point game. I dont care if they are just AV11 and the guys are only T4/ 3+ save guys. The game is only 7 turns at most and the other guy can only kill so many things a turn. Play the mission and concentrate on what VPs you can get and enjoy the wins.

Over in the News/Rumor thread that's up to like 100 pages, you can get a wide range of reaction from folks, especially Marine players, about the new codex.

So far, it seems to have garnered a pretty positive reaction. Lots of excited Marine players. That's good for Marine players.

Some Marine players will 'play it down', not wanting people to look at the codex with the same squinty-eyed glare that many people give the Eldar or Necro codex books. In this thread, and others, there will be those who will try to claim that the codex really isn't any 'big deal'.

I don't play marines, and I am reserving my own judgment until I've had a chance to face off against them a bunch of times - but my initial reaction to -any- formation that gives out 'free stuff' is pretty negative. Things cost points for a reason. Giving players opportunities to get 'free stuff', gives them an advantage before models are even placed on the table. 200-300 points of free transports is still 200-300 points of free stuff. The fact that it's all obsec doesn't bother me so much as the fact that it's -free- does.

I have already seen some players go on about how it 'doesn't really matter'... which is ludicrous. It -does- matter, or why would points values be assigned at all?

Even in the Eldar codex, the Guardian Battlehost can get 3 weapons platforms for free (possible 90 points total). I don't use them, myself, out of principle. Giving 'free points' to any appreciable degree is just lazy game design.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
The free transports thing is neat but it's hardly game-breaking. These are Rhinos and Razorbacks we're talking about, not Wave Serpents or Ghost Arks. Drop Pods, of course, remain strong... but if you put your whole army in pods instead of tanks then you're gonna get mulched by volume of fire from basically anything, especially if you haven't filled out your squads (which is not required by the formation).

Also it's kinda really boring. Snoozeville if you ask me. I'd take a demi-company formation if I could use scouts in an LSS instead of all those friggin MEQ bodies.

Boring maybe, but weak and unconcerning, not hardly. No reason to upgrade any of the razorbacks. 10 TL heavy bolters is 30 shots, 25 hits, and wounds most things on a 2 or 3 plus. Any army with exposed 4+ save is going to hate that. Parking them on objectives, why the hell not, they all have objective secured. Massed tankshocking is also an option for those who love to run straight at the enemy. Even LD 10 fails every so often, let alone 9 or 8.

The marine player is basically getting 2000 points in a 1500 point game. I dont care if they are just AV11 and the guys are only T4/ 3+ save guys. The game is only 7 turns at most and the other guy can only kill so many things a turn. Play the mission and concentrate on what VPs you can get and enjoy the wins.

Sure, you can try this, but you need to take what many marine players consider sub-optimal or terrible units to do it. You can forgo upgrading the METAL BOXES, but then you run into a brick wall at AV12, when you yourself are only AV11/11/10.

Sure you can park on objectives, but anyone with half a brain will simply spread all the objectives out so that the marine player has to move around, which is the other problem with this army build.

Sure, it has mobility, but no maneuverability. 10 Rhino chassis creates a massive parking lot that will struggle over terrain and get in each others' way constantly. There is more than enough S6 and 7 firepower in the game to murder plenty of METAL BOXES a turn. After that, the list is totally spent.

 the Signless wrote:
Space Marine players complain about the lack of variety in their codex while being given the options to fields infantry mobs, vehicle squadrons, drop pod armies, and biker armies along with a collection of formations.

I'm sitting here with an Ork codex that has 100 fewer pages, removes huge chunks of fluff to be replaced by nothing, costs almost the same as the SM codex, has a single formation, and took away a lot of the variety of the previous codex.

I don't see any reason to complain why your codex is underpowered.

I am interested in seeing how these changes to the SM codex will affect small point and large point games. I see vehicle squadrons as a pathway to almost IG levels of tank spam.

I'll explain then, because I'm one of those players unhappy with the Formations given now that I'm trying to build a list. And I'll even preface this by saying that I love Formations in general. I think they're a lot of fun as was extremely excited for the Space Marines to get a Decurion. Figured my Astral Claws would have something fun to work with on the Fast Attack side of things and my Ultramarines would be able to do as they like.

The new book has ways to run Infantry Mobs and Vehicle Squadrons OR Drop Pod armies OR Bike armies. It does not have ways to run AND anything. There is no TAC build here that utilizes every aspect of Ultramarines, Imperial Fists or Salamanders, and certainly not White Scars. Those armies have to go back to CAD again, because Space Marines, according to leaked pages atleast, don't even have a Detachment similar to the Baal Strike Force or Great Wolf Detachment. The Demi-Company is awesome, and I will likely build an army using that, but I still have to use minimum 3 tank units, or Whirlwinds and Speeders, or minimum 3 Scouts. There's nothing to include just another Devastator Squad or a spare Bike squad or Assault Squad. And nothing in the Decurion to give a single tank choice like two Predators in a Squadron.

Spam lists are happy with this, able to take one idea and run it into the ground. But I want a balanced list for casual games, and the minimum requirements are too excessive for me to be able to anything with using these Formations. I'm stuck with a CAD and Saint Tylus Formation, just like the previous codex. Especially since Tyrannic War Veterans don't appear to be in the codex for some friggin reason. The Dataslate has to still be used, which means they have no options to go into a Decurion. Just one of the many complaints that can be made about the new book. The codex was supposed to be a great, grand thing bringing it all into one. Instead, it saved me 40pts on my 1850pt list. I can now include six Terminators instead of five. Yay...

Just looked through all those images on OP's link.

You know what I hate about this new codex?

It is Codex Ultramarines with chapter tactics slapped on to facilitate the use of other chapters.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE UNIT PHOTOGRAPHS is painted in the Ultramarines colour scheme. Seriously, GW?

In the 6th edition codex the unit art was varied on purpose to give you the feel that this was a codex dedicated to many chapters. Sure, the UMs had the largest fluff section and the largest miniatures gallery, but overall it still felt like this was a book being used by many chapters.

Now in this new book, except for the CT page, everything else feels like I'm holding a codex of and for the blue boys.