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the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

Or you can just play the way it's supposed to be played and not force someone else who wants to utilize the formation to do something else just because you don't like it.

 gmaleron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

Or you can just play the way it's supposed to be played and not force someone else who wants to utilize the formation to do something else just because you don't like it.

In an 1700pts game or under, this formation is pretty much a Turn 1 auto-win for the Marine player.

Experiment 626 wrote:


In an 1700pts game or under, this formation is pretty much a Turn 1 auto-win for the Marine player.

Complete exaggeration and false, this will struggle against certain lists and it is very dependent upon Devastator loadout.

I mean, really, you've basically got the answer to your question already. UM are the best chapter to use this with, but it is of course, your choice, and it sounds like you're going to use one of the chapters in the OP.

Personally, I hate this formation, because it can literally table my army in one turn with no retaliation (assuming my Daemon Prince is killed by devastators and the marine player isn't stupid enough to charge it). On the other hand, I suppose once they've completely wiped the table with me, we might get another game where they don't use the formation, and that might be more fun.

People complaining how OP it is. People complaining that people aren't complaining how OP it is.

In the same thread.

Has everybody got everybody else on block or something?

Poly Ranger wrote:
People complaining how OP it is. People complaining that people aren't complaining how OP it is.

In the same thread.

Has everybody got everybody else on block or something?

They're not complaining hard enough

 gmaleron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

Or you can just play the way it's supposed to be played and not force someone else who wants to utilize the formation to do something else just because you don't like it.

I'm not forcing them to do anything. I'm giving them a choice between both of us playing something enjoyable or both is us playing something that guarantees no fun will be had.

Either we can play a balanced game or we can play a game where, if he goes first, he auto-deletes half my army and if I go first I demolish whatever he starts on the board then I turn on army wide stealth/shrouded and his formation will fail to kill enough and I auto- win.

His choice. We play "roll a single die to see who gets tabled top of turn 2" or we play 40k. Sorry, not sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Why do Marines get a free pass where literally any other army getting something comparable to the Skyhammer would have them frothing? I mean I agree with you, but I don't like how it seems everyone suddenly changed their attitude when Marines got theirs.

If Eldar got this formation people would be livid, and complaining non-stop about how Eldar break all the rules and it takes no thought or skill to play them. "Your assault units are guaranteed to get into assault and I can't stop it! That's bullgak!"

Marine players in general I've found never see anything their army can do as anything remotely obnoxious/game ruining/over powered...
Instead their codex is eternally "middle of the road at best" because Tactical Marines are unplayable apparently, while their cheap av11 transports always die to a stiff breeze, and Drop Pods are merely a way to get their models killed faster.

Can you imagine is Chaos Marines got a formation even half this godly? We'd easily have Loyalist players up in arms demanding that Chaos get banned from every tournament!

Marine butthurt & over entitlement is the driving force of 40k.

I mean there is the Charybdis/Zerkers one. More of a points investment just to delete one heavy target and get one unavoidable charge but it's the same obnoxious principle.

Seriously stop whining and suck it up. I have gone against some of the most top tier army lists to date with Sisters of Battle and my Militarum Tempestus army and I have not only been competitive in a few games, I actually beat a few as well. Nothing wrong with a challenge but if people are going to pull this crap good luck getting any games. If someone takes the time to put together a certain list they want to run then no one should have the right to deny them a game. If you don't want to play the game or against that particular army then don't, there is no point complaining about it then.

...think you quoted the wrong person lol

the_scotsman wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

Or you can just play the way it's supposed to be played and not force someone else who wants to utilize the formation to do something else just because you don't like it.

I'm not forcing them to do anything. I'm giving them a choice between both of us playing something enjoyable or both is us playing something that guarantees no fun will be had.

Either we can play a balanced game or we can play a game where, if he goes first, he auto-deletes half my army and if I go first I demolish whatever he starts on the board then I turn on army wide stealth/shrouded and his formation will fail to kill enough and I auto- win.

His choice. We play "roll a single die to see who gets tabled top of turn 2" or we play 40k. Sorry, not sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Why do Marines get a free pass where literally any other army getting something comparable to the Skyhammer would have them frothing? I mean I agree with you, but I don't like how it seems everyone suddenly changed their attitude when Marines got theirs.

If Eldar got this formation people would be livid, and complaining non-stop about how Eldar break all the rules and it takes no thought or skill to play them. "Your assault units are guaranteed to get into assault and I can't stop it! That's bullgak!"

Marine players in general I've found never see anything their army can do as anything remotely obnoxious/game ruining/over powered...
Instead their codex is eternally "middle of the road at best" because Tactical Marines are unplayable apparently, while their cheap av11 transports always die to a stiff breeze, and Drop Pods are merely a way to get their models killed faster.

Can you imagine is Chaos Marines got a formation even half this godly? We'd easily have Loyalist players up in arms demanding that Chaos get banned from every tournament!

Marine butthurt & over entitlement is the driving force of 40k.

I mean there is the Charybdis/Zerkers one. More of a points investment just to delete one heavy target and get one unavoidable charge but it's the same obnoxious principle.

I'd argue that the Kharybdis/Khorne Berzerker Formation (KKBF for short ) doesn't have most of the problems that this formation has. Being able to charge after Deep Striking isn't really the main issue, in my opinion. Skyhammer allows you to shoot at up to four units, 1st turn, then pull some stupid rules out which mean that either the units which have been shot at go to ground (50% chance of this happening) or you stay where you are but can't fire overwatch. Then you get the charge, and your units are fethed. KKBF, on the other hand, is literally limited to a single unit (and transport, if you aim for it, but then the Kharybdis is immobilised). It's also around 550pts, so unless you're trying to wipe out a TH/SS Terminator squad in a Land Raider, there's no guarantee that you'll make your points back. It also doesn't do anything about overwatch, so unless you're charging a dedicated close combat squad, a couple of Berzerkers will probably die on the way.

Just because I don't take the strongest moneygrab formations for my armies out of respect for my opponents and a desire to have fun games both players can win makes me the donkey-cave?

Look, this is not hard. I'm not gonna refuse a game with anyone, but if they want to use the strongest game-legal rules available to their faction, I'm not holding back either. They're getting 600 points of free upgrades and universal canticles to the face if they want to run the douche formation for their faction. Theirs is a web-only exclusive formation, mine is exactly the same.

Is the alternative me just bringing my slowed formation army to EVERY game so I stand a chance against people who want to do that? Because I think somehow that would get me fewer games than running a balanced list and kicking it up to 11 only if my opponents want to bring tourney-list crap to a casual game.

Then why are you just focusing on this formation then? Seriously, To Run 5x Devestators w/4x Grav Cannons in a Drop Pod, that's nearly 250 points right there. There are Drawbacks to this formation and I would think being able to run 2x Demi Companies and get free transports would be something people would be more upset about.

Again suck it up and don't play it. Then you have no reason to complain at all.

What are the drawbacks of this formation?

 Blacksails wrote:
What are the drawbacks of this formation?

None. Well, without its synergy ASM are pretty bad. But it's designed for rapid tabling.

Oh I'm aware there are no drawbacks, I just want to hear from our dear friend Ironwolf what he/she thinks the drawbacks are.

I've played SM since 3rd. This formation is insanely overpowered. There is no tax. The benefits far outweigh any tiny semblance of risk. I will never buy or use this formation, not even with proxies for a giggle. It promotes uninteresting gameplay and will make your opponent resent you every single time you plop your models down at the start of turn one. This formation is basically the pure distilled essence of WAAC TFG-ness. Don't try to pretend like it isn't just because Wraithknights and +4 RP Decurion/Canoptek Harvest formations exist. We as a community should just not accept this level of cheese.

I have the components to create a seriously unfun douchey tournament list. Ordinarily my list is nowhere near that level because thankfully I have more of a collector/fluff player meta of people who have played for 20 years and don't care what's hot this week or newer people who don't know. But unlike most people whose choice is play and lose/refuse and don't play, I have a third option

-present the above choice and have either a fun game, or an unfun game I have an exactly 50% chance of winning.

-refuse and have them go find a PUG with someone else. Which means they'll probably wind up stomping a new player, a newcomer to the club or a younger player. Most of the vets use the club forum to set up games since they like having balanced matches. So it's likely that Joe Douchecanoe would be turning someone away who would never come back and might even tell people not to play there.

I'm not expecting him to take me up on the offer, from my experience people who play all out alpha strike lists hate having a 50% chance at winning, they're just there to stomp as efficiently as possible. I'm not going to tailor my list to 100% crush an alpha strike (which again, I probably could since I've got access to a lot of models) I'm just going to do the exact same thing he's doing.

And it'd be exactly the same if he were running Scatbikes and Wraithknights, or a Screamerstar, or 20 free razorbacks, or a Decurion+Harvest.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Then why are you just focusing on this formation then? Seriously, To Run 5x Devestators w/4x Grav Cannons in a Drop Pod, that's nearly 250 points right there. There are Drawbacks to this formation and I would think being able to run 2x Demi Companies and get free transports would be something people would be more upset about.

Again suck it up and don't play it. Then you have no reason to complain at all.

If it's no big deal, why can't everybody auto-deepstrike first turn, charge and/or fire relentless?

Seems odd to limit it to just one formation, if it apparently makes no difference to game-balance, whether you can charge/fire heavy weapons on a turn-1 deepstrike or have to wait for turn 2-4 for a no-heavy-weapon, no-charge deep strike.

When you play 40k you have to respect that it's a frickin expensive hobby and not everyone has the cash to keep up with the joneses. Some people have played IG since third ed and can't just drop 1000$ on a new army when yours unexpectedly gets sweet new rules that let them table his IG turn 1. This isn't a video game like League of Legends where a meta shift can be handled by playing a different free character. "Just adapt lol" comes with a MINIMUM 300$ price tag for the other guy.

I have zero respect for the guy who will not tone his list down for a more even matchup when it literally costs him 0$ To do so. Because for every one of those guys that's a regular at a club, 5-10 will get turned away. I cringe every time they show up and cheer every time they leave because they're just toxic to the health of the game.

 Blacksails wrote:
What are the drawbacks of this formation?

It costs points, I guess.

That seals it then. Its worthless.

If GW honestly expects me to pay points for this, they have another thing coming.

I will be sending an e-mail shortly demanding they amend this formation to a free attachment.

Ok so OP you want a helpful post without it being mentioned how OP it is.

Pick UMs CT. Load up on grav cannons on both devestator squads, take combi-grav on the sarges. Go bare on the AM squads. Take everything as 10 man.

Against 3+ armour saves (and assuming t4 for the boltguns) you will be causing 39.3 wounds (after saves from boltguns), across 4 units if you combat squad. So almost the equivalent of 4 full strength tac squads dead in one turn for only 580pts.

Your grav cannons are weak against horde with low saves. But not to worry, those hordes tend to be low leadership so if you shoot them with the devs (maybe 5 bolter guys as you don't really want to waste grav on horde), your assault marines will be rerolling to hit and wound and also get an automatic st4 hit at I10. So they cause 48.75 wounds alltogether on average against ws4 t4 (eg ork) hordes before saves, even better against ws3 and/or t3.

An opponent who can't afford to lose that many models in one turn without reply is a very very rare one indeed so you should by that point have almost surely won the game.

Just in case though you still have 930pts of other units in a 1850game to help scrape off the rest.

Would be better for all concerned if people dialled it down a notch and did stick a wee bit more closely to the topic.

Thank you.


Formation does seem daft , almost beyond belief.

They spent ages pretty much removing altogether the ability to assault after arriving from reserve -- which was annoying for a lot of units but long as this rule was across the board least it was somewhat fair, least you knew that you too would have a turn to deal with any reinforcements before they smashed into your lines.

But this ..??!!??

God.

To me smacks as being a kewl idea that was never really playtested and knocked out to help push the new kits with no regard to how this affects of influences the game.

Congratulations on feeding the monster.

That'll teach 'em to keep writing gakky rules, overcharging for their product, and continue treating their customer base like gak.

But hey, you got yours, right?

Good Job.

Ravenguard CT's don't allow cover save bonuses from shrouded to marines that have left a vehicle. The only bonus you get would be from Winged Deliverance, which are the rerolls of the to wound for Hammer of Wrath.

Has anyone actually played this or played against it yet?????

OP. Don't let folks get you down; dakkadakka has become notorious for it. If your group or club is fine with it, it matters very little what others think.

Last month was the lynchmob mentality over the Eldar codex. This month appears to be this formation. This forrhas great potential and is scarily close to fluff.

For options, you need to figure out how to minimize scatter. Teleport Homers won't work. I am also looking at options with this formation. UM CT seem great as well as Pedro; need to build lists and playtest.

Oh yeah... Right RG can't do anything right anymore...

But all that stuff I said about shrouded Termies could still apply, there is just no point taking the formation as RG because it's like saying "I'll take the Marines, but not a CT".

Buddy brings up a good point about deepstriking those AsMs. Chink in the armour?

I can see a Jamming Beacon doing wonders against this type of assault.

As far as this formation being weak at higher points levels? Take 2. Or any of the other formations in the book. Shore it up with more DPA and ObSec, maybe even some summoning with the Librarius Conclave?

It is not weak at higher points levels. If it is OP for 930pts (forgot the pods above) in a 1500pt or 1850pt game it is still OP for 930pts in your 3000pt list. As it is stronger than any 930pt equivalent and then you still have 2030pts to spend on the rest of your list.
The whole "well it will be poor in a larger game" is a fallacy. It is either OP for its points or its not.

 Sarigar wrote:
This forrhas great potential and is scarily close to fluff.

You could say the same thing about Necrons and Eldar, though.

 gmaleron wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


In an 1700pts game or under, this formation is pretty much a Turn 1 auto-win for the Marine player.

Complete exaggeration and false, this will struggle against certain lists and it is very dependent upon Devastator loadout.

Take Grav Cannons. Problem solved, The type of target becomes irrelevant.

Doesn't matter what you shoot them at then. Tanks? Dead. Heavy Infantry? Dead. Light infantry? force that go-to-ground test and have the AM's mop up (and likely still kill ~8 putzes if you've got 6 bolters to throw in). MC's? Dead.

It's not an exaggeration at all to say that this formations is absolutely capable of deciding a game on turn 1.