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 The Shadow wrote:
Good points about the disposability and the combat - even if the latter only really matters about necrons. I guess I may pick up a box of direwolves or chaos warhounds then, and use them as khymerae then. I assume a beastmaster is necessary for the increased Ld?

Hellions make great stand ins for beastmasters.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Good points about the disposability and the combat - even if the latter only really matters about necrons. I guess I may pick up a box of direwolves or chaos warhounds then, and use them as khymerae then. I assume a beastmaster is necessary for the increased Ld?

Hellions make great stand ins for beastmasters.

Not like you are going to use them for anything else these days.

Seriously, a naked beastmaster I'd probably a solid addition though the beastpack ally's greatest strength is that of target priority.

Alright, 10 dogs and a beastmaster it is. And so no added bonus to durability is necessary? They're just a cheap, throwaway unit?

I would add a swooping hawk autarch his grenades make them strike at iniative and give him a banshee mask so they dont have to worry about overwatch.

 CKO wrote:
I would add a swooping hawk autarch his grenades make them strike at iniative and give him a banshee mask so they dont have to worry about overwatch.

That's a good idea. Though it does make the unit less throwaway. I guess if need be the autarch could always go off and do his own thing. I could give him a Fusion Gun to threaten tanks and the like.

I would add a swooping hawk autarch his grenades make them strike at iniative and give him a banshee mask so they dont have to worry about overwatch.

For five more points, the bike is always better. T4 makes a huge difference.

 JGrand wrote:

I would add a swooping hawk autarch his grenades make them strike at iniative and give him a banshee mask so they dont have to worry about overwatch.

For five more points, the bike is always better. T4 makes a huge difference.

No the bike is not better the wings extra 6 inches puts you in 2d6 range with your fusion gun it also can gurantee the charge by moving from the middle of the pack to way in the front leading the congo line. Toughness 4 makes him a space marine captain not that durable you already have a 4++ so jink doesnt do much for you.

Except possibly stack with Stealth/Shrouded.

No the bike is not better the wings extra 6 inches puts you in 2d6 range with your fusion gun it also can gurantee the charge by moving from the middle of the pack to way in the front leading the congo line. Toughness 4 makes him a space marine captain not that durable you already have a 4++ so jink doesnt do much for you.

Using the 18" much when the Autarch is attached to a unit that moves 12" a turn? The Autarch is best used for the +1/-1 reserve bonus and the Banshee Mask. It isn't wise to count on a single fusion shot anyway.

The bike gives the Autarch the ability to break and contest almost anywhere late game. The laser lance adds some decent CC punch as well.

im pretty sure assault grenades are models and not units.

peirceg wrote:
im pretty sure assault grenades are models and not units.

You aren't just pretty sure, you're correct.

Hawk wings can't be used to move 18" unless the whole unit is equipped with Hawk wings. The only advantage of the Wings over the Jetbike is that the Jetbike is not Fleet. Really though, Khymera are too easy to kill and I'd spend the points elsewhere.

ryuken87 wrote:
Hawk wings can't be used to move 18" unless the whole unit is equipped with Hawk wings. The only advantage of the Wings over the Jetbike is that the Jetbike is not Fleet. Really though, Khymera are too easy to kill and I'd spend the points elsewhere.

Do Hawk wings have a special rule stating the whole unit has to have them?

 Jimsolo wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
Hawk wings can't be used to move 18" unless the whole unit is equipped with Hawk wings. The only advantage of the Wings over the Jetbike is that the Jetbike is not Fleet. Really though, Khymera are too easy to kill and I'd spend the points elsewhere.

Do Hawk wings have a special rule stating the whole unit has to have them?

“A model equipped with Swooping Hawk wings gains the Jump unit type. When a unit composed entirely of models equipped with Swooping Hawk wings uses its jump packs in the Movement phase, it can move up to 18" instead of 12".”

Then aye, there you go then.

Fleet is pretty important tough, so wings is still an option. A bike makes a laser lance possible, which is also nice.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Except possibly stack with Stealth/Shrouded.

I had thought about giving the unit Stealth/Shrouded, but what would be the easiest, cheapest way to get it in the unit? There's no Baron any more

So, regarding the Autarch, his plasma grenades really don't do much, as only he'll be striking at initiative if the unit charges through difficult terrain? In that instance, although the negate overwatch is nice, I'm not sure if it's worth putting a ~100pt model into a unit that isn't far over that cost itself and is meant to be throwaway.

And wait... don't Beasts ignore terrain anyway? So they won't need grenades? I'm not sure as I've never used Beasts before and don't have the rulebook on me to check.

Their movement isn't slowed by difficult terrain. Common interpretation of that rule is that they still suffer a reduced initiative.

Since we're talking about allying Eldar with Dark Eldar, then I think the best way to give the unit Stealth/Shrouded would be with psychic powers. Telepathy has one, and Runes of Battle has another.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Their movement isn't slowed by difficult terrain. Common interpretation of that rule is that they still suffer a reduced initiative.

Since we're talking about allying Eldar with Dark Eldar, then I think the best way to give the unit Stealth/Shrouded would be with psychic powers. Telepathy has one, and Runes of Battle has another.

Ah, fair enough. That makes sense.

And yeah, I did think about the psychic powers. But if I add in a Spiritseer for the (guaranteed) Shrouded, then it will slow the unit down; and if I add in a Farseer Skyrunner on Telepathy, I'm not guaranteed to get the shrouded power and the unit becomes a bigger points sink (true, I'm likely to be taking a Farseer Skyrunner anyway, but I'd much rather have him accompany a unit of Jetbikes/Warlock Skyrunners).

And is Shrouded even that useful on the beast pack, considering the Khymerae have a 5++?

How does the Shadowseer give you Shrouded?

Also, with a Farseer, the odds are damn good you will either get the Shrouding OR Invisibility (which is also damn fine). With Runes of Battle, I think the Stealth one is the Primaris.

 Jimsolo wrote:
How does the Shadowseer give you Shrouded?

Also, with a Farseer, the odds are damn good you will either get the Shrouding OR Invisibility (which is also damn fine). With Runes of Battle, I think the Stealth one is the Primaris.

I think you misread: I said Spiritseer (who gets it through Runes of Battle).

But I don't think Shrouded is even that useful on the unit, especially considering I'll have to almost double the cost of the unit by adding a character to it. Wouldn't a Farseer Skyrunner be better off somewhere else rather than in the beast pack?

I don't think you can add independent characters to a beasts unit. Might have to check that when I get home.

effreem wrote:
I don't think you can add independent characters to a beasts unit. Might have to check that when I get home.

I'm not aware of any such rule.

effreem wrote:
I don't think you can add independent characters to a beasts unit. Might have to check that when I get home.

Theres nothing to prevent this. It was common until the packs nerfing and no form of increased movement left in codex DE means it would really only happen with an allied eldar IC. But ya it's legal if you want to do it for whatever reason.

Yeah, I CAN do it, it's whether I want to do it. I don't think Shrouded, or any other potential bonus I can get, is worth it for making a cheap, throwaway unit far less so.

dominuschao wrote:

effreem wrote:
I don't think you can add independent characters to a beasts unit. Might have to check that when I get home.

Theres nothing to prevent this. It was common until the packs nerfing and no form of increased movement left in codex DE means it would really only happen with an allied eldar IC. But ya it's legal if you want to do it for whatever reason.

Well thats good to know. Maybe I was thinking fantasy rules or something.

A beast pack is a decent place to hide a Jetseer with shard.

They provide a bunch of somewhat solid abative wounds for a low price. He doesn't slow them down and provides fearless until they get it on their own

serathnal wrote:
A beast pack is a decent place to hide a Jetseer with shard.

They provide a bunch of somewhat solid abative wounds for a low price. He doesn't slow them down and provides fearless until they get it on their own

The Fearless is admittedly a nice bonus, but a Jetseer with a Shard is 155 points, significantly more than the rest of the unit combined. It makes the beast pack less throwaway, which is something I'm worried about. If this isn't an issue, I'll give it a shot, but I feel that the throwaway-ness is kinda the idea of the beastpack.

Plus, wouldn't a Farseer be better off in a Jetbike or Warlock Skyrunner unit? Where he wouldn't get caught in combat? And does a Farseer make the most out of the Shard? It's 40points on a character with only WS5 and 1 base attack, whose basic weapon has Fleshbane anyway...

Still, I guess another Jetseer is useful to have (I'd probably run it alongside a Windrider Host - or it could be my only Farseer if I don't) and that the unit does provide a good meat shield. I guess that Divination would be a good discipline to roll on, considering that Prescience's re-rolls to hit would be so useful on the pack, not to mention its potential elsewhere?