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Hi all,

I've recently started up a small Dark Eldar collection, with the view to the army being an allied support force to add a little bit of variety to my Eldar army. However, it's sort of grown into a fully functional army, and whilst I can see easily how Eldar can be beneficial allies to Dark Eldar (Banshee Mask Autarch, for example), I'm struggling to think of a decent allied force for the other way round.

Aside from a Webway Portal Archon tagging along with a unit of Wraithguard, and some Ld shenanigans with the DE Artefacts, I can't see how Dark Eldar allies provide much help to an Eldar army, aside from providing anti-infantry poison shots that Eldar don't have. Whilst I guess this is useful, is there any other combos the dakka community would recommend?

Thanks in advance

 The Shadow wrote:
Hi all,

I've recently started up a small Dark Eldar collection, with the view to the army being an allied support force to add a little bit of variety to my Eldar army. However, it's sort of grown into a fully functional army, and whilst I can see easily how Eldar can be beneficial allies to Dark Eldar (Banshee Mask Autarch, for example), I'm struggling to think of a decent allied force for the other way round.

Aside from a Webway Portal Archon tagging along with a unit of Wraithguard, and some Ld shenanigans with the DE Artefacts, I can't see how Dark Eldar allies provide much help to an Eldar army, aside from providing anti-infantry poison shots that Eldar don't have. Whilst I guess this is useful, is there any other combos the dakka community would recommend?

Thanks in advance

Scourge with haywire, reaver jetbikes with cluster caltrops (D6 S6 auto hits with rending), and very cheap beast packs. That and transports. Venoms and Raiders are excellent transports for the superior eldar units.

So, basically, you want a ton of fast attack choices... thankfully, Real Space Raiders gives you 6 fast attack slots.

-Matt

The Leadership shenanigans have a whole lot to offer. Here's a guide to them.

Outside of that: Open-Topped Transports. Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, and Banshees all benefit from arriving in a Raider or Venom.

So both eldar and dark eldar are extremely specialized armies where unites do one thing and only one thing. This means pairing them the tether is actually really easy. Figure out what your army is missing and fill that hole. So while fire dragons are great short range anti tank, scourge are amazing mid range and mobile anti tank, making them better against Knights. If you have slower close combats unites like banshees or scorpions you can use faster beasts to hunt down and tie up units before the real killing power comes in. Likewise reavers are probably one of the best flanking units to help block off and force movement in the enemy while a wraith knight comes in and wrecks face. Finally as you said sap and wraiths are broken so you can always try that.

Running one of the Covens Formations that use the Monstrous Creatures allows you to get some rock-type units into the list. Dark Artisan w/ WWP gets you a tough threat where you want it, and the 5 Scouting Talos one provides a large midfield threat.

Yeah, Reavers and open-topped transports do seem like a strong choice to me. Still, I feel like many units, such as Fire Dragons, work better (or just as well) in Wave Serpents. Whilst they're vulnerable once disembarked, they're the kind of unit that you resign to their fate once they've done their job, and the Wave Serpent will, unlike Venoms/Raiders, give them a better chance of reaching their target.

How would you feel about units of 5 DA in Venoms? Good idea or not?

As for Haywire Scourges, I feel it's pretty redundant to include them when I have access to Swooping Hawks. Whilst they do need to be in combat for their Haywire to work (so I suppose Scourges are better vs Walkers/IKs and the like) Swooping Hawks are, in my opinion, a more effective and simply better unit.

And thanks for the guide, Jimsolo! Much appreciated!

After alot of brainstorming I like Eldar without Dark Eldar! I thought I was going to love the synergy but denying battle focus ruined it for me.

 CKO wrote:
After alot of brainstorming I like Eldar without Dark Eldar! I thought I was going to love the synergy but denying battle focus ruined it for me.

Even a skeleton force of DE can benefit CWE. If nothing else, the DE have superior transports and Deep Strike capabilities. For a 240 pt troop tax you can also get two units of warriors in venoms, which gives you a nice backstop against enemy MCs or other high-toughness units.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 CKO wrote:
After alot of brainstorming I like Eldar without Dark Eldar! I thought I was going to love the synergy but denying battle focus ruined it for me.

Even a skeleton force of DE can benefit CWE. If nothing else, the DE have superior transports and Deep Strike capabilities. For a 240 pt troop tax you can also get two units of warriors in venoms, which gives you a nice backstop against enemy MCs or other high-toughness units.

240 points is like 10 wind rider jet bikes with scatter lasers right? IMO, poison is too specialized compared to just packing S6.
I wouldn't take more poison shot troops beyond what's required. The transports are handy, but if you've got access to S6, you really don't need poison 4+.

How many T7 T8 targets are left in the game, that aren't immune to poison? Wraith Lord, Talo, Chronos and C'Tan? Against anything T6, S6 is just as good, and anything less than T6, S6 is better.
IMO, the favorable targets for poison shooting vs S6 shooting is a pretty short list.

Take the troops because you have to, and then load up on the good stuff.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 CKO wrote:
After alot of brainstorming I like Eldar without Dark Eldar! I thought I was going to love the synergy but denying battle focus ruined it for me.

Even a skeleton force of DE can benefit CWE. If nothing else, the DE have superior transports and Deep Strike capabilities. For a 240 pt troop tax you can also get two units of warriors in venoms, which gives you a nice backstop against enemy MCs or other high-toughness units.

240 points is like 10 wind rider jet bikes with scatter lasers right? IMO, poison is too specialized compared to just packing S6.
I wouldn't take more poison shot troops beyond what's required. The transports are handy, but if you've got access to S6, you really don't need poison 4+.

How many T7 T8 targets are left in the game, that aren't immune to poison? Wraith Lord, Talo, Chronos and C'Tan? Against anything T6, S6 is just as good, and anything less than T6, S6 is better.
IMO, the favorable targets for poison shooting vs S6 shooting is a pretty short list.

Take the troops because you have to, and then load up on the good stuff.

If you have to take the troops though, you might as well make them useful, n'est pas? And a five man warrior squad with a blaster in a venom is infinitely more useful than a five man squad on foot.

Load up your eldar with all of your anti-infantry and anti-tank options, leave anti-Monstrous-Creature to poison 4+

That and what everyone else has said already.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 CKO wrote:


Take the troops because you have to, and then load up on the good stuff.

If you have to take the troops though, you might as well make them useful, n'est pas? And a five man warrior squad with a blaster in a venom is infinitely more useful than a five man squad on foot.

Is it? You're taking two 40 point unit, and making them 240 points. For 2 troops, you're adding 160 extra points. Remember, this is dark eldar allies for Eldar.
I'd say eldar is better served spending those 160 extra points on fast attack slot transports, grotesques, reavers, and scourge. Shooty troop choice is pretty low on my list of things eldar need.
Why would you buy the venom dedicated to the warrior when instead you can take it free-range?

I assume we're talking a CAD or RRD, rather than Allied Detachment. For just one transport, what's the point? To get the number you need, you'll probably have to take two troops.

And in that regard, yes, a 120 pt group with a venom and blaster is superior to their cheap but worthless five man team with no upgrades.

Venom spam just dont impress me much, against decurion necrons how many warriors can you drop?

 Jimsolo wrote:
I assume we're talking a CAD or RRD, rather than Allied Detachment. For just one transport, what's the point? To get the number you need, you'll probably have to take two troops.
And in that regard, yes, a 120 pt group with a venom and blaster is superior to their cheap but worthless five man team with no upgrades.

I want 4 transports for my eldar, so I go Real Space Raiders. I want fire dragons in the venoms, not warriors. If I had another 160 points, then I might consider 2 more venoms for the warriors; but even then, I think I'd rather have ~5 more eldar jetbikes.
Those 2x5 warriors are largely ignored compared to every other threat I've got on the table. If I gave them a blaster and venom, they'd just die with the venom, and cost more in the process.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CKO wrote:
Venom spam just dont impress me much, against decurion necrons how many warriors can you drop?

1.33 warriors per PAIR of venoms.
Compared to a mighty 1.85 from ~the same value of scatter bikes.
In either case, you want scorpions, banshees, shining spears, reaver jet bikes, grotesques and even beast packs hitting those necron in close combat. Shooting at a Decurion is folly.

-Matt

The only cc I have in my list is the wraithknight, that matchup against necron scares me!

 CKO wrote:
The only cc I have in my list is the wraithknight, that matchup against necron scares me!

Wraith knight does well; S6 AP4 stomps puts down a decent number of necrons, but that knight can't be everywhere.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Those 2x5 warriors are largely ignored compared to every other threat I've got on the table.

Because they're complete dead weight. Oh well, the conversation seems to have moved on without us.

Back on topic: how much ignores cover do the Necrons bring?

Tomb Blades, which are required for the Dec, and are totally awesome, pack S6 ignore cover blasts, for way too cheap.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Tomb Blades, which are required for the Dec, and are totally awesome, pack S6 ignore cover blasts, for way too cheap.

-Matt

Hmm. Every time I've seen people talking about them, it's only as a tax to take the Dec. Are they super popular in the tabletop?

Yeah, the decision about going with bare bones troop choices or not is a tricky one.

But, Dark Eldar infantry are good, and, whilst it's a fair point that they're shooty troop infantry (like many Eldar troops), they don't quite bring exactly the same things to the table. True, Scatterbikes do their job arguably better, but a unit of 10 Kabalites with a Cannon in a Raider with Splinter Racks in the place of something like Dire Avengers is, in my opinion, a good choice. Whilst both are shooty troop choices, the DA's Bladestorm rule naturally lends them to targeting heavily-armoured units, whereas the Kabalites are best targeting more lightly-armoured opponents. In addition, they've got a mobile firebase, automatic re-rolls to hit whilst inside it and, if taken in an Allied Detatchment (which it would be) then a fast moving unit with ObSec.

Of course, if I need those points spent elsewhere (i.e. on a webway portal for my Archon) then I'll likely just run with a unit of bare bones kabalites that can sit on a home objective. However, if I have the points, I think it's worth fleshing the unit out.

The main reason for me to take DE would be a beastpack squad, I need a cc unit and having a million str 4 attacks eventually str 5 on the charge would help me out alot. I just hate having a bad matchup against necrons!!

If you want a beast pack squad then you should put them with a farseer / autrach with the fearless sword on a jetbike

Yeah, to be honest, I never really saw the appeal of the beastpack. I mean, it was alright with Baron when it was rocking a 4+ cover by default but now... I still think that the Eldar have much better combat options around (especially if you consider harlequins too).

Am I missing something? What makes the beastpack so good?

Pretty cheap, honestly.

When you have a few extra points to spend and some empty FA slots, a Beastpack can provide a great distraction unit for 30 pts or less.

Especially if you're going unbound, and can take 20-50 models, each in a single unit by itself, still capable of delivering S5 attacks or S3 with Rending.

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, to be honest, I never really saw the appeal of the beastpack. I mean, it was alright with Baron when it was rocking a 4+ cover by default but now... I still think that the Eldar have much better combat options around (especially if you consider harlequins too).

Am I missing something? What makes the beastpack so good?

Remember you do not evaluate how good a unit is all by itself but as a piece of the army list puzzle. A beast pack unit with 10 kyhmeras will have 40 str 4 or 5 attacks on the charge imagine if that was after 20-40 scatterlaser shots all for 120 points! The unit is perfect for finishing off units that all your cheap str 6 shooting has nearly killed. Also it gives you a fast unit that can assault necrons and wipe them off the board.

 CKO wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, to be honest, I never really saw the appeal of the beastpack. I mean, it was alright with Baron when it was rocking a 4+ cover by default but now... I still think that the Eldar have much better combat options around (especially if you consider harlequins too).

Am I missing something? What makes the beastpack so good?

Remember you do not evaluate how good a unit is all by itself but as a piece of the army list puzzle. A beast pack unit with 10 kyhmeras will have 40 str 4 or 5 attacks on the charge imagine if that was after 20-40 scatterlaser shots all for 120 points! The unit is perfect for finishing off units that all your cheap str 6 shooting has nearly killed. Also it gives you a fast unit that can assault necrons and wipe them off the board.

It's true that a cheap assault unit is always useful, and I haven't played the new Necrons yet but I feel that, in terms of the damage output, pretty much anything could do that. Necron killing aside, wouldn't an equal points value of, say, Jetbikes or Warp Spiders provide me with more utility? I'm also concerned that the Beastpack, especially one that isn't majority T5, will be too easily shot off the board. Any way to boost their survivability easily?

Shooting necrons is useless you kill maybe 1-3 models, if you get them in cc and kill 2-4 models they fail their ld test than you can sweep the entire unit that is the best way to kill them. Their durability and shooting will eventually overpower an eldar list once you factor in certain things.

 The Shadow wrote:

 CKO wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, to be honest, I never really saw the appeal of the beastpack. I mean, it was alright with Baron when it was rocking a 4+ cover by default but now... I still think that the Eldar have much better combat options around (especially if you consider harlequins too).

Am I missing something? What makes the beastpack so good?

Remember you do not evaluate how good a unit is all by itself but as a piece of the army list puzzle. A beast pack unit with 10 kyhmeras will have 40 str 4 or 5 attacks on the charge imagine if that was after 20-40 scatterlaser shots all for 120 points! The unit is perfect for finishing off units that all your cheap str 6 shooting has nearly killed. Also it gives you a fast unit that can assault necrons and wipe them off the board.

It's true that a cheap assault unit is always useful, and I haven't played the new Necrons yet but I feel that, in terms of the damage output, pretty much anything could do that. Necron killing aside, wouldn't an equal points value of, say, Jetbikes or Warp Spiders provide me with more utility? I'm also concerned that the Beastpack, especially one that isn't majority T5, will be too easily shot off the board. Any way to boost their survivability easily?

An effective beast pack is as cheap as 120 points. That's less than the cost of 3 to 4 scatter bikes. The beast pack has two huge advantages. It's stupidly quick, and disposable. If your opponent doesn't want to be in melee turn 2, he's going to need to kill it. Every shot at the beast pack is a shot not going at the jet bikes.

Good points about the disposability and the combat - even if the latter only really matters about necrons. I guess I may pick up a box of direwolves or chaos warhounds then, and use them as khymerae then. I assume a beastmaster is necessary for the increased Ld?