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Valid enough articles, will read through them anon.

Yeah, my country has been though hell in order to leave the gak hole we were in and pay our debts, so I'm not exactly sad if Greece has to pay them too.

Hell, there are arguments how Grexit can make the Euro stronger, but the economy looks like a giant lottery, who knows what'd happen. I'd love to see Euro getting close the £ again, because right now it's a mess.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/raoulruparel/2015/06/25/would-grexit-strengthen-or-weaken-the-euro/

Thanks for considering what I was saying.
I worry when hearing of people going through strife.
You try to leave it if you can.
If you are stuck, you try to fix it if you can.
If past the point of recovery you do something "radical".
Lash-out, steal from others to better your life, join a "gang" / group for support in uncertainty.

Greece had a history of terrorism in the past, Ireland, heck, here in Canada we had the FLQ... it does not take much.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/25/europe/greece-terrorism-hub/It is CNN so grain of salt.

As a Greek (and by no means an expert) I feel obligated to say my own in this thread.

The vision of bankruptcy does not sit well with anyone, that's no secret I immagine, let alone people like me that have a family and a kid to look after.

Yes, I'm Greek, I consider myself an educated man speaking fluently two foreign languages and having a University degree, I'm also a bussinessman and owner of a Pharmacy and -guess what- Shieldwolf Miniatures. Must be some lazy guy doing two jobs, huh? I consider myself middle class and work hard to earn a living.

Greece has recently elected a left government saying no to austerity (which to me says very little since left nor right, politicians are all the same to me and capitalism thrives nicely -and so it should, as long as humanitarian rights are not violated).
For the past 5 years I've seen horrible measures taken against me as a civilian and tax payer, not to mention I've tollerated a bunch of foreign ignorants who say I don't pay taxes because their sold-out media says so, FYI I have almost doubled my hours of work since the crisis began depriving myself of almost all hobbys/activities I used to do and a lot of family time, yet despite my efforts my income has shrunk.
All I've seen is these nice "Institutions" that are so willing to "help us out" lending money to their banks, so they simply get them back. It is a fact I imagine most of you know that all this austerity and loaning money has not costed a single euro to any European tax payer, on the contrary almost every single European country in the E.U. has benefited from the fact Greece suffers. Yes, suffers!
MONEY ISN'T COMING TO GREECE IT COMES TO THE GREEK BANKS ONLY TO BE PAID BACK TO THE FOREIGN BANKS THAT LENT THE MONEY. A very isnignificant part enters a beaten up Greek economy, which is peanuts compared to what the economy truly needs.

We have children that pass out in public shools because of malnutrition. Do you know what it feels like not to have to provide to your children? I do because I have teachers and parents telling me about it.

We have unemployment at 30%+ when for ages 20-30 it's more than 60%! Do you know what it means when you want to work and you can't find a job? I do because I have people that have come to me literally begging me for work.

We have over 1.000 suicides per year (that's an average of 3 per day) because of debts towards the banks and loans people cannot pay. Do you know what it feels like learning that a person you knew has commited suicide for that? Because I know of two.


I do not have to prove to anyone I am not lazy, for I know I am not.
I do not have to prove to anyone I am not tax-evading, for I know I am not.
I do not have to prove to anyone I am not a thief, for I know I am not.

We have a saying in Greece. "It is hard to prove that you are not an elephant." That's what it feels like here for the past years. People have had enough. And although I fear of what may happen, I'm at least seeing one positive thing. Something is finally going to happen. Let's hope it's going to be TRUE European solidariety against their "so-precious" bank monetary system, instead of the pillaging that has took place in my country the past 5 years...

PS. Just to avoid any misunderstanings, I'm not saying by any means we are not also to blame for the fact many things do not work as they should in my country -far from it-, but pretending that EU is helping out is a shameless act.
Imo and from what life has tought me till now, there are other reasons all this is currently happening. Unexploited Greek oil, uranium, gas, gold are a few things that come to mind. Just saying...

(Edited to fix something not to be misinterpreted)

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
Let's hope it's going to be TRUE European solidariety against their "so-precious" bank monetary system, instead of the pillaging that has took place in my country the past 5 years...

PS. Just to avoid any misunderstanings, I'm not saying by any means we are not also to blame for the fact many things do not work as they should in my country -far from it-, but pretending that EU is helping out is a shameless act.

Firstly, I'd like to say that I have the deepest respect and sympathy for those who are just doing their best to weather what must be a horrendous economic climate, such as yourself. Being unemployed in a recession is never fun.

With regards to the money coming in and going out again though, there's a reason for that. Primarily that Greece borrowed tremendously, staggeringly large sums of money, and urinated them up the wall over the previous years. Then when the crunch came, they were unable to pay it back, and so many other governments and institutions had to step in and purchase that debt in order to stop it from smashing their own economies. A large amount of it has already been written off.

In a nutshell, I guess what I'm saying is that this isn't quite a case of an evil manipulative institution giving a loan to help repay another loan owed to it, so much as it is a group of institutions stepping in to buy up toxic debt at direct harm/risk to themselves and placing conditions on their continued financial support in helping to meet repayments of that toxic debt. I won't deny that they did so in self-interest (to stop the Greek collapse hammering their own economies), but accusing them of 'pillaging' Greece is somewhat unfair.

Sebster claims that expecting the full debt to be repaid is foolish. Considering Britain managed to pay off two World Wars over a protracted period, I personally see no issue with Greece making repayments for the next three quarters of the century if necessary. With regards to what is being demanded by Europe currently though (that Greece run a 4.5% budget surplus instead of the 1.5% it currently has) in order to make more repayments, I am somewhat less in favour. I think that asking for a slight increase in that demanded surplus is reasonable (perhaps another half a percent) as would a clause on further loans stating that any future surplus in Greek tax revenue goes to loan repayments first (or vice versa, with any fall in tax revenue lessening loan repayments). But the additional 3% at this precise time seems somewhat ludicrous.

Generally speaking, it feels like both sides are engaged in brinkmanship. And if nobody blinks, it may well send the whole stack of cards falling down. There is quite clearly plenty of room for reasonable negotiation, as there is with any loan repayment. Hopefully the children will stop lobbing rocks at each other and deal before it gets too late in the day.

As a ordinary Greek trying to make ends meat and keep a roof over your head, I feel bad for the everyday person struggling and having to face such hard times not seen in Europe in decades, counties falling apart is nothing to celebrate.

but your leaders and those in power caused one hell of a mess and loans to cover yet more loans is not working and never did. The debt totals are huge, billions owed all over the shop, IMF, euro banks, other acronyms, foreign investors, Greece has so much debt, and I don't,t think repayment is possible in a single persons working life.

Last time I saw in town holidays there are down 50% in price and still last minute deals.
Not a good sign, small but telling. No ones going to Greece.


The EU is a wreck, a despotic monolith of beuracrecy and problems who,s books are so bad acountents have refused to sign off in past.

Good luck for the next few days, big things are coming to a head. And its not going to be pretty.

Very surreal atmosphere in press room here in Brussels. One journalist in tears. Most reporters shocked euro rupture is happening. #Greece

— Ed Conway (@EdConwaySky) June 27, 2015

Oi...

Isn't it a bit late for the Referendum?

Here's the full statement from the Eurogroup:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/06/27-eurogroup-statement-greece/

Since the 20 February 2015 agreement of the Eurogroup on the extension of the current financial assistance arrangement, intensive negotiations have taken place between the institutions and the Greek authorities to achieve a successful conclusion of the review. Given the prolonged deadlock in negotiations and the urgency of the situation, institutions have put forward a comprehensive proposal on policy conditionality, making use of the given flexibility within the current arrangement.

Regrettably, despite efforts at all levels and full support of the Eurogroup, this proposal has been rejected by the Greek authorities who broke off the programme negotiations late on the 26 June unilaterally. The Eurogroup recalls the significant financial transfers and support provided to Greece over the last years. The Eurogroup has been open until the very last moment to further support the Greek people through a continued growth-oriented programme.

The Eurogroup takes note of the decision of the Greek government to put forward a proposal to call for a referendum, which is expected to take place on Sunday July 5, which is after the expiration of the programme period. The current financial assistance arrangement with Greece will expire on 30 June 2015, as well as all agreements related to the current Greek programme including the transfer by euro area Member States of SMP and ANFA equivalent profits.

The euro area authorities stand ready to do whatever is necessary to ensure financial stability of the euro area.

[1] Supported by all members of the Eurogroup except the Greek member.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
As a Greek (and by no means an expert) I feel obligated to say my own in this thread.

The vision of bankruptcy does not sit well with anyone, that's no secret I imagine, let alone people like me that have a family and a kid to look after.

Its frankly easier. Handing over money to the Greek government is like handling over money to drug addicts, it will be grasped squandered and gone.
Bankruptcy levels the debt. Bailouts don't, and they dont solve Greece's problems either. Too many people play the system, and those who dont get played.

Greece needs an economic cold shower and an administrative bitchslap to clear out the corruption.

This will be accompanied very swiftly with welfare payments, moistly in materiel over money. Greece frankly is in the same state as an African junta where if you want to do any good send over milk powder and bags of grain, cash just gets squandered by the regime.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

For the past 5 years I've seen horrible measures taken against me as a civilian and tax payer, not to mention I've tollerated a bunch of foreign ignorants who say I don't pay taxes because their sold-out media says so, FYI I have almost doubled my hours of work since the crisis began depriving myself of almost all hobbys/activities I used to do and a lot of family time, yet despite my efforts my income has shrunk.
All I've seen is these nice "Institutions" that are so willing to "help us out" lending money to their banks, so they simply get them back. It is a fact I imagine most of you know that all this austerity and loaning money has not costed a single euro to any European tax payer, on the contrary almost every single European country in the E.U. has benefited from the fact Greece suffers. Yes, suffers!
MONEY ISN'T COMING TO GREECE IT COMES TO THE GREEK BANKS ONLY TO BE PAID BACK TO THE FOREIGN BANKS THAT LENT THE MONEY. A very isnignificant part enters a beaten up Greek economy, which is peanuts compared to what the economy truly needs.

Banks are to governments like an abusive crack dealer and his henchmen are to addicts.
Yes all these loans are by banks and for banks, and the compounded human misery is linked to them. Pay the loan or go bankrupt, don't settle for the half measures of revolving debt and a government that refuses to face reality. Your economy is frankly undead.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

We have children that pass out in public shools because of malnutrition. Do you know what it feels like not to have to provide to your children? I do because I have teachers and parents telling me about it.

We have unemployment at 30%+ when for ages 20-30 it's more than 60%! Do you know what it means when you want to work and you can't find a job? I do because I have people that have come to me literally begging me for work.

We have over 1.000 suicides per year (that's an average of 3 per day) because of debts towards the banks and loans people cannot pay. Do you know what it feels like learning that a person you knew has committed suicide for that? Because I know of two.

Decades of Greek governments went to the banks to give Greece a veneer of wealth beyond its measure. Buying good times for them and their supporters and anyone else who didn't know any better.
Lots of money thrown around, but little to come from it, and the banks, like crack dealers kept on feeding you the habit until you were hooked completely. They knew what they are doing and don't give a gak if your kids collapse in class from malnutrition, loaning money to government is business, and business is good if a country sells its people short.

However banks need paying their %. Hedge fund managers dont get to be the richest people on the planet by accident. Pay up, or burn the debt. But don't expect Europe to pay, we have our own debts to pay, and many countries are not far off your situation.

Greece isnt asking for a handout to feed its starving kids, to do that it would have to ask for so much money everyones kids would starve.

It is up to you to prevent this from not happening again, with political reform, and a way out of debt rather than having todays problems waved off to be tomorrows problems. Yesterday's tomorrow has come, and no one is deferring it any more.
Time to pay for the false good times of the 90's and 00's Greece had on borrowed money and misinvestment.

 Ratius wrote:
With all due respect DA, Im not sure where you are coming from. How or why is Ireland next on the list to leave the EU?
Every single report from the IMF to the ESRI to IBEC accept that Irelands growth both this year and next is projected at 3+ % which is a huge turnaround from the recession days.
Unemployment is down from 15% to 9.7%, we recently had our credit rating upgraded from at one point close to junk now to a-a+ (depending on the agency) and there have been a series of very big profile investment agreements from USMNs and EU companies of late.
Yes inflation rates are down again as of April which raises fears of sustained deflation but after the horrors of the pre 2008 prices (especially in the fething housing market) Im happy about it (short term).

Where are your fears arising from?

I haven't been paying a lot of attention to Ireland and the EU repayments since I moved, but like you I was under the impression that Ireland was doing well and had essentially gotten itself out of the recession.

Ireland has a special bailout from the UK which wiped out the Uk's austerity savings of 2011. but that was worth it.

A collapse of the Irish economy would result in unemployed irish looking for someone to blame, and I think that term is a bit too loaded/offensive. Reds8n would take full advantage. Besides it accmulates slow interet and by and large Ireland is a good credit risk, especially as austerity is now full measure.

To be fair the Irish government has handled things responsibly and while again some parties are standing on an anti-austerity ticket, notably Sinn Fein, they arent really getting thier way. The Us doesnt want the Irish economy to go tits up either. Sinn Fein would profit from a collapse, and profit from anti-austerity, so its a win-win for them, but Wall Street doesn't like it. Irish business is a traditional punt on Wall Street and the folks in Manhattan don't want to lose their investments.

Finally because Sinn Fein is anti-austerity the Ulster Unionists are all for it, they were anyway, but they are now bloody minded about making sure austerity works, so the hard measures required are actually getting some resolve behind them. As Belfast carries the de facto economy for both sides of the island, and is being bankrolled anyway by the UK under peace process agreements, and is under Unionist economic control things are fairly stable.

The above simplifies a lot of the situation into a few lines and so cant be comprehensive as to causes and effect, but is broadly accurate in the way things are going and why. So all in all Ireland is fairly safe, it got hit very hard by the collapse of 2008, but learned the lessons needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seeing a lot of UK sourced packaged food products with Greek labels in UK supermarkets of late. Notably breakfast cereals.

Foreign language labels was always common in pound shops, and account for regular production overruns but Greek labeled goods are becoming evident in mainstream supermarkets which is more unusual.

Its a sign of the times, an expectation that goods packaged for the Greek market can't be sold or delivered to Greece.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
As a Greek (and by no means an expert) I feel obligated to say my own in this thread. <snip>

It is good to hear from someone in the country seeing this massive issue first hand.
I am sorry for your hardship.
I liked the article I linked earlier made by a Greek such as yourself, this quote was of interest to me:

"Those officials and the plutocratic elite have escaped the crisis relatively unscathed. One minister, Akis Tsochadzopoulos, who stole an obscene amount of money from defense contracts, was sentenced to 20 years in jail. For the most part, however, the rich and powerful have been left alone even as small business owners and pensioners have been squeezed by huge tax hikes and massive cuts in benefits. For the vast numbers of Greeks in that category, it’s hard to appreciate why they should be more accountable than the government itself."

You have outlined that the way the system works now it does not reward honesty and doing the right thing.
It was pointed out so many things that were the responsibility of government were poorly done or not at all.
So many citizens felt justified in not paying taxes for services they never received.
Why reward bad behavior?
So the "Mexican standoff" where government does not have enough money to meet it's commitments and citizens not wanting to pay for no or poor services.

But, there was documented info that 50% of some loans would have been forgiven if certain austerity conditions were met. I am still trying to find out the terms for why it was rejected (must have been severe).

The conditions you outline are correct for when a debtor can barely pay the interest on the loan.
You are being sucked dry, all money going to the loan holders but these were terms agreed to by the Greek government to benefit from the money loaned.
When the interest exceeds what can possibly be paid the only logical thing to do is to refuse and walk away.

The real question here is why was no line drawn in the sand by the banks and Greek government to stop the overspending?

I have no political opinions and little understanding of both politics and economy.

But this is what? The 4th, 5th time that Greece has undergone this sort of rigmarole.

 Talizvar wrote:


The real question here is why was no line drawn in the sand by the banks and Greek government to stop the overspending?

No it isnt the real question, its the real answer, but requires a demand of culpability on a global scale that wont be forthcoming.

To help understand this directly we should take an analogy.

Why don't drug dealers only take as much money from drug addicts as the addict can afford to realistically pay, so they don't have to resort to self harm or crime to pay for their fix?

As a moral conundrum it is remarkably similar, though the latter is easier to comprehend, everyone knows drug dealers are amoral feth-heads, understanding this is true of the investment banking industry has political overtones, and honest people work for banks at various levels, and not all banking establishments are the same or work in the same environment. As as a result you cant come to the same conclusion as with the drug dealer so easily without being labeled a left wing radical agitator.

Ireland has the second highest debt per person in the world after Japan. It's a real job of work we have to pay back the bank debt (the debt in Ireland comes not from public overspend but the blanket guarantee of our banks we were pressured into by the ECB, which made private gambling debts public debts. Capitalism when there's a profit, socialism when there's a loss. Of course, we are responsible for the crappy oversight of the banks that allowed that to happen)

This to me is a worrying fact and our recovery may be quite fragile. I know Ireland is doing alright (I pay close attention to the news from home) but a shock to the economy could cause that recovery to reverse quite easily. We're still in a very precarious position with a very open economy that is vulnerable to general shocks.

Orlanth: snip. What the hell are you talking about. Seriously. You're in conspiracy theory land right now. The UK bailed out Ireland because of huge exposure to Irish banks and the huge level of interdependence in our economies. Worries over the "Fenians" (awful term) has nothing to do with it, just sober and clear headed economic analysis.

 Da Boss wrote:
Ireland has the second highest debt per person in the world after Japan. It's a real job of work we have to pay back the bank debt (the debt in Ireland comes not from public overspend but the blanket guarantee of our banks we were pressured into by the ECB, which made private gambling debts public debts. Capitalism when there's a profit, socialism when there's a loss. Of course, we are responsible for the crappy oversight of the banks that allowed that to happen)

Correct, the numbers are big but heading in the fright direction, and with enough will for the course.

 Da Boss wrote:

This to me is a worrying fact and our recovery may be quite fragile. I know Ireland is doing alright (I pay close attention to the news from home) but a shock to the economy could cause that recovery to reverse quite easily. We're still in a very precarious position with a very open economy that is vulnerable to general shocks.

The UK economy, particularly via Belfast is a shock absorber for Ireland. Despite crippling mismanagement from Gordon Brown disasterous term in office the UK economy is likely to improve and strengthen, though the social price has been high.

 Da Boss wrote:

Orlanth: What the hell are you talking about. Seriously. You're in conspiracy theory land right now. The UK bailed out Ireland because of huge exposure to Irish banks and the huge level of interdependence in our economies. Worries over the "Fenians" (awful term) has nothing to do with it, just sober and clear headed economic analysis.

Damn right. McGuiness has gone on record to state that the peace process was intended as a temporary ceasefire, while IRA and Sinn Fein leadership drank in the benefits of the process, however as time goes by longer term peace is more viable.. Things still need to be kept under a lid for a new generation to emerge without ingrained hatreds.

As for 'conspiracy land', you need to think more and see the obvious.. It is a standard consequence of an economic collapse for extremist organisations to thrive. Its happening in Greece right now. Golden Dawn is benefiting from the crisis, others will likely follow. It needs not be a rational trigger, radicals can easily for radicals to recruit the disenfranchised in an economic crisis.
Also Sinn Fein made big gains in Ireland on an anti-austerity ticket at expense of moder moderate parties. Sinn Fein was never big in the Irish parliament, it is now.

Also one of the sentiments during this recession has been that Belfast accounts for the bulk of the Irish economy, north and south, 'so why isn't it ours'. This does in part ignore the fact that Belfast is economically strong because it is not part of the Irish republic by tied to the far more robust UK economy. But these sentiments, from ordinary Irish blossom on the fringe into something darker. No one wants a return of the Troubles.

I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't use that term. Thank you.

I'm on my cell and is difficult to quote the sayings above.
I appreciate this thread to make a voice heard and the responsible tone of those involved and do not know me. The whole thing is a mess and shouldn't be arrived here in the first place. Greece stood in great debt 5 years ago but had a valid economy. Now it stands at a huge debt without the previous economy that might have saved the day. Great job from both Greek government and loaners, I'm sure they felt great shame when pocketing their monthly fat wages, banks very pleased.

Also, I read the statement quoted above. That's very responsible what the Institutions officially stated.
Unfortunately that's not what our Prime Minister said in Live television when he announced the referendum. In fact, he said quite the opposite, the Institutions gave the Greek authorities an ultimatum (yes, that's the word he used, twice) and literally forced our hand into accepting, in which case the Greek representatives were escorted out.
I don't know whom to believe tbh, but sure sounds funny to walk out of negotiations that are still on going having a problem so harsh to deal with back home...

Money goes to the banks, the people suffer. In Greece there was elevated wealth disproportionate to what it should have been. I agree. Actually, I totally agree. Bear with me for a second. Here comes a government that has a healthy economy and prosperity is guaranteed for the years to come. Let's say that country is yours. The government decides to start taking loans and provides even more than it should. On top of that it hands out more benefits and lessens taxes. And all this goes on for many years. Would you have taken the streets to protest? If you are honest, you are going to lol and say of course not. Everyone is happy. Then comes a time when "oh my gosh" the government realizes it cannot pay back the loans (you don't say? Enter sarcastic tone here)
Bear with me a moment. Do you think, even for a split second, that the people loaning the money did NOT know?
Of course they did.
Now comes the fun part. Remember when I told you to pretend that the country is yours? Good. Do you feel responsible for the mess? I say yes, you do, but only at a minor part. The real fault lies at the government that took the loans and equally the loaners who (supposedly) didn't do their homework right and are equally to blame. So please do not say Greece but use instead Greek government, it's more tolerable that way.

One last thing regarding the pillaging comment above; Europe and the IMF isn't losing any money, let's be clear on that. These are interests that will not be paid, interest upon interest, we owed 180 billion € back in 2010, now it's over 400.
If -hopefully not because it means our suffering was for nothing- bankruptcy does occur, European banks didn't hand out 220 billion euros, that's the money they claim out of the absurd interest rates Greece has been forced into signing to avoid bankruptcy. I don't have the numbers nor am I in a position to know for a fact, but I'll explain this the same way I explained it to my employee last year.
I loan you 100€ and pretend interest. Fair enough. Then I see you are in trouble and hand you another 100€. Interest is elevated however. This happens another 3 times, each of which I generously put another 100€ each time making you sign new contracts pretending always more, for a total of 500€. In the meanwhile you have repaid me something like 800€, but due to the absurd interest rates you still owe me money, even more than before, actually you owe me now another 1000€.

Doing the math, I gave 500€, took back 800€ and you still owe me 1000€. I feel 'pillaging' is a great term. How would you feel?

The phrase loanshark seems apt there. Your nearly paying back 4 times the original debt, and that's minus future interest payments if you can afford to make the first paymnetd even

Well, this could be happening:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33303105

The European Central Bank is expected to end emergency lending to Greece's banks on Sunday, the BBC understands.
The country's banks depend on the ECB's Emergency Liquidity Assistance (ELA). Its governing council is meeting later.
Greece will probably have to "announce a bank holiday on Monday, pending the introduction of capital controls", a source told the BBC's Robert Peston.
The bailout for heavily indebted Greece expires on Tuesday and talks have broken down

More brinkmanship?

Removed a somewhat loaded/offensive term that can be used with regards to the Irish.

I think it better that this particular term isn't used here.

Thank you.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

The real fault lies at the government that took the loans and equally the loaners who (supposedly) didn't do their homework right and are equally to blame. So please do not say Greece but use instead Greek government, it's more tolerable that way.

First, that's not how sovereign debt works. It is not personal debt and they do not stop lending money and say "enough". They set the interest rate and give the money. The loans given by the ECB and IMF were at a lower rate than would otherwise be lent, on the expectation that the Greek government would reform its economy and be able to pay. The Greek government started this, and tried to make changes, but the Greek people voted for a party that promised to stop these changes. These changes are not about "kids starving" but about things like implementing propper tax collection and raising the retirement age. From 55... To people outside, the people putting the money in (and yes, it is costing tax payers in the rest of the EU money) the refusal to raise tax rates and retirement ages in line with the rest of the EU rather stings. To me, it's not an issue, as the UK is not very exposed, and we may win, or may lose, from the outcome, but I can see why, for example, the German government and people are a little annoyed.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

One last thing regarding the pillaging comment above; Europe and the IMF isn't losing any money, let's be clear on that. These are interests that will not be paid, interest upon interest, we owed 180 billion € back in 2010, now it's over 400.
If -hopefully not because it means our suffering was for nothing- bankruptcy does occur, European banks didn't hand out 220 billion euros, that's the money they claim out of the absurd interest rates Greece has been forced into signing to avoid bankruptcy. I don't have the numbers nor am I in a position to know for a fact, but I'll explain this the same way I explained it to my employee last year.
I loan you 100€ and pretend interest. Fair enough. Then I see you are in trouble and hand you another 100€. Interest is elevated however. This happens another 3 times, each of which I generously put another 100€ each time making you sign new contracts pretending always more, for a total of 500€. In the meanwhile you have repaid me something like 800€, but due to the absurd interest rates you still owe me money, even more than before, actually you owe me now another 1000€.

Doing the math, I gave 500€, took back 800€ and you still owe me 1000€. I feel 'pillaging' is a great term. How would you feel?

Your completely ignoring the cost of lending, banks do not have a massive pile of cash to loan somone. To lend money banks have to borrow. They have to pay this back, and if the loan is not repaid they have to find it from elsewhere. You either don't understand how loans work, or are wilfully ignoring the other side of the equation.

 Da Boss wrote:
It's a real job of work we have to pay back the bank debt (the debt in Ireland comes not from public overspend but the blanket guarantee of our banks we were pressured into by the ECB, which made private gambling debts public debts. Capitalism when there's a profit, socialism when there's a loss. Of course, we are responsible for the crappy oversight of the banks that allowed that to happen)

Same here in Britain. And no jail time for anyone. We even had a whip round to pay their bonuses( I'm looking at RBS here). And as long as politicians get funded by Banks and hedge funds, nothing will change.

@Steve Stevenson

Dear Steve,
I'm pretty sure the UK media is lying to you just as much the Greek media is lying to me.
What I do know is what I see around me. And people did not vote for a party that said no to logical reforms, they voted for someone who would bring something humane in the process.
You feel some people are annoyed? German tax payers for example, with what they are being told should be furious! Strange thing for their government when German enterprises have 90% ownership of Turkish hotels where they charge 3%VAT, and pretend to bring "better and more strict reforms" to raise the already high tax in Greece from 13% to 23%? Strange how you think that will help the Greek economy reform, Greece will again not be able to pay up and the Institutions will cry how reforms are not being applicated :-/
See where I'm going with this?

As for the 2nd part of your comment, I fully understand how the bank system works, but there is a difference between lending someone 500€ and asking for 800€ back, and another lending 500€ and asking 1800. I don't know about you, but I call usurer. That's the polite term. Otherwise I can use terms Red moderator will surely find offensive and thus retain myself from naming them as they should.
Greeks never refused to pay, as no one should if borrowed money are not being returned. Need to see the conditions of how this came to an end and is irresponsible claiming it's only one party's fault. The lender had the responsibility of checking whom they lend the money to, saying if they cannot pay we will take it from the people is pathetic. Something like Leehman Brothers back in 2008. Still haven't seen any golden boys in jail though...
I ask this back to you: you owe money, want to repay but in the meanwhile your people are starving. You ask for better terms of repayment and the loan holders deny you the possibility. What would you do? Give them what few funds are available and let your people and economy die? Probably not (I hope) but that's not how you put it now, is it?
I'll put it in easier words. If I owe you money, I tell you I want to pay you back but my child is starving and I will postpone payment and you pretend the money now, you are sure to get something from me but you can bet what you hold most precious it isn't going to be money...

Anyway, I don't know what the media is telling you, I only wish tomorrow you don't find yourself in the same position as ours, where the whole world suddenly discovers how lazy the UK has become out of the sudden and you having to prove to the Danish and Austrians how you are not what the media are telling you are. (Here comes the prove you are not an Elephant part again...)

PS. Sorry for not quoting, on my cell phone again :-/

Orlanth: You are really going out on a limb with a lot of this stuff. I have never, ever, ever heard anyone make an economic argument for Belfast being "ours". It's extremely rare for ANYONE in mainstream discourse to think that taking the North on would do anything other than tank the economy. I'm also extremely skeptical that Belfast is economically more important to Ireland than Dublin, that seems like total bollocks to me.

Finally, yes, Sinn Féin are on the rise. But no one wants a return to violence, and I think you'll see that support melt away when it comes to voting for an actual government. Honestly, you're saying stuff that really paints the situation with a broad brush and quite a lot of it comes across as patronizing and ignorant.

Anyway. All this is OT I guess when Greece is facing down the barrel of an exit from the Eurozone.

Shieldwolf: I always think of Greece when I see you posting, and I always think "There's a Greek guy just trying to get by, making money from innovation and creativity and hard work. Bucking all the stereotypes of Greece as a Welfare Basket Case state."

I can't imagine how you must be feeling about the whole thing.

The idea that "Greece" or "Ireland" or "Portugal" owes all this money is pure politics. The banking systems racked up this debt which was nationalised. Greece (AFAIK) has more issues than average with overly protectionist economic policies, heavy public spending and tax evasion among the rich. For those reasons the economy was particularly vulnerable to the shock of the banking crash, leading us to where we are right now.

What I see is the IMF vultures trying to leverage this weakness into privatisation of Greek assets, slashing working conditions for people and generally pursuing their neoliberal agenda. The fact that all of these banks got us into the mess seems to be nowhere on the agenda, and honest to god it makes me furious.

Of course, and I am saying this for emphasis, the governments were lax in not regulating their banks correctly and not having enough oversight. But governments across Europe were lax in this regard, and the suffering and debt is being concentrated in a few vulnerable countries who don't have enough negotiating power to say no. And then the entire thing is being spun as a morality play by the Right, blaming public spending for what is a systemic failure of their neoliberal deregulate everything ideology.

There's more nuance and depth to it all of course, and many of the criticisms raised here have a lot of validity, but I can totally see and understand why Greek people feel the way they do. If I lived in Ireland I'd be furious that my taxes instead of paying for services for my fellow citizens go to servicing the bank debt of an untouchable class of total spankers who have not suffered nearly enough for what they wrought on the rest of us.

It is bad business to get a debtor to a point of bankruptcy, this is why it is somewhat surprising.
It is better to get them to a point that is "comfortable" and have them always in debt paying compound interest for years.

All those elections really nailed Greece for confidence levels.

Both for government bonds going up close to 30% in 2012 (6% or more is high risk) I am still trying to see what the interest rates were for the bailouts, they can't be pretty since they are high risk.
The wiki is surprisingly detailed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis.

Statistical accuracy was brought up, it was noted figures submitted often were revised much worse later on: internal data gathering methods were very inaccurate:Debt to GDP ratio was %120 in April 2010 so it was pretty dire and unsustainable at that point.

Statistics showed in 2013 that the Greek government collected less than half the taxes due it for the 2012 tax year (!!??).
Brutal.

Government hiding their debt:
The austerity measures were having a significant impact:"Overall the two debt restructuring measures accounted for a 40.7 percentage point debt-to-GDP decline, so that it only ended at 156.9% ultimo 2012, down from the 197.6% it would have ended on if no debt restructure measures had been performed."

A rather telling quote here: "irresponsible borrowers can't exist without irresponsible lenders. Germany's banks were Greece's enablers.[333]".

What is interesting is still the debt is so high that any money injection is just to pay creditors: "German and other financial institutions have scooped a huge chunk of the rescue package: "more than 80 percent of the rescue package is going to creditors—that is to say, to banks outside of Greece and to the ECB. The billions of taxpayer euros are not saving Greece. They're saving the banks."

Overall, Greece should have defaulted long ago so that Germany could "benefit" from it's unethical lending practices.
Bailouts are only benefitting Germany banks.

@Daboss
Appreciate the kind words and also agree with the rest of what you're saying.
Actually it's not just one person, with the release of the Mountain Orcs a total of 4 people were involved to handle distribution.
Therefore that gave jobs/work to another three people, even for a small period of time.
Same goes with the Kickstarters, two more people get employed by me as we speak, again as part-time in order to meet requirements and honor the backers. We are working very long hours I assure you, I see no other choice to run the business as I want it being run.

I cannot tell you how I feel for I do not know what will become of all this nor do I know what to vote for (as I am not voting for myself alone but the future of this country and toddlers), but putting blame on an entire nation is rarely justified. If ever.
:-)


@Talizvar
Your view is the same as mine, only you put it in better English :-)

 Da Boss wrote:
Orlanth: You are really going out on a limb with a lot of this stuff. I have never, ever, ever heard anyone make an economic argument for Belfast being "ours". It's extremely rare for ANYONE in mainstream discourse to think that taking the North on would do anything other than tank the economy. I'm also extremely skeptical that Belfast is economically more important to Ireland than Dublin, that seems like total bollocks to me.

Finally, yes, Sinn Féin are on the rise. But no one wants a return to violence, and I think you'll see that support melt away when it comes to voting for an actual government. Honestly, you're saying stuff that really paints the situation with a broad brush and quite a lot of it comes across as patronizing and ignorant.

Anyway. All this is OT I guess when Greece is facing down the barrel of an exit from the Eurozone.

This is a nice visualisation of there debt totals.

When you add it up into real money and physical form its looks alot more easy to understand than just numbers.
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
As a Greek (and by no means an expert) I feel obligated to say my own in this thread.

Thankyou for posting that, it was excellent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:
Sebster claims that expecting the full debt to be repaid is foolish.

And I spend fething countless fething posts explaining over and over again that the current insistance of primary surpluses has collapsed Greece GDP, and actually worsened the debt to GDP ratio. And it just bounced back at me over and over again, because people that don't want to understand something will always succeed.

And then I explained that insisting Greece must repay all its debt is idiotic when they've already seen considerable debt relief (for political purposes the face value has not been reduced, but the terms changed so massively that the real value of the debt is much reduced). And once again, people who didn't want to understand something succeeded very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
Its frankly easier. Handing over money to the Greek government is like handling over money to drug addicts, it will be grasped squandered and gone.

Greece is running a primary surplus, with cyclical adjustment. You don't know what you're talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:
First, that's not how sovereign debt works. It is not personal debt and they do not stop lending money and say "enough". They set the interest rate and give the money. The loans given by the ECB and IMF were at a lower rate than would otherwise be lent, on the expectation that the Greek government would reform its economy and be able to pay. The Greek government started this, and tried to make changes, but the Greek people voted for a party that promised to stop these changes. These changes are not about "kids starving" but about things like implementing propper tax collection and raising the retirement age. From 55...

Not quite. One of the ECB arguments was actually that primary surplus requirements were met somewhat through a different balance of tax increases and spending cuts than Greece actually implemented. Everyone gets understandably very prickly about the ECB dictating domestic policy, except now with Greece the ECB isn't just limited to insisting on a target number, but is allowed to dictate to Greece how that target number is to be met.

And while I agree long term Greek stability needs strong pension reforms, it really, really isn't an essential part of resolving the immediate issue. The structure of the Greek government's budget is now insanely positive, and the real issue is how that positive structure can be maintained given the economic mess.

I think Greece is now at the point it just has to reject capitalism, burn down the banks, kill the parasites (bankers are pure 100% evil), take all their wealth and use it to fuel a huge industrialisation of the country and give everyone a job. It worked very well for Russia in 1917 (okay, there was a civil war first, but lets just ignore that). Russia changed from poor backwards agricultural state into the worlds second-largest industrial powerhouse within a few decades.
¡Viva la Revolución!

In all seriousness, If things aren't going to improve in the near future I do think Greece should seriously look into possible alternatives to the EU and the capitalist system. I mean, even if they screw up, things could hardly get any worse... (and even if it does make things worse, giving the finger to the bankers would be totally worth it )
Alternatively, Greek debts should either be forgotten or put off until the country is strong again. First priority is getting the Greek economy back on track and giving people jobs and reasonable salaries again. Stopping the suffering of the Greek people comes first, debts can wait. Even if the Greeks caused this all by themselves (which I doubt) they are EU and so we are all in this together.
In either case, Greece needs a strong, powerful leader.