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Doesn't seem like much of a "balancing" mechanic to me when you can just drop I dunno, 200 skeletons with Nagash and THEN summon whatever you want. In a game with no points, what's to stop you?

That's an interesting point about summoning and minor victories.

 Da Boss wrote:
Doesn't seem like much of a "balancing" mechanic to me when you can just drop I dunno, 200 skeletons with Nagash and THEN summon whatever you want. In a game with no points, what's to stop you?

Ok, let's play this game... you drop Nagash, surrounded by ~200+ Skeletons. I drop 50 Dwarf Bolt Throwers as my army, claim Sudden Death and choose the Assassinate objective. The only eligible model you have on the board is Nagash as my Assassinate target, so you pick him. You do whatever you want first turn. On average, 36 Bolt Throwers will kill Nagash in one round of shooting. I have more than 36, so you're almost certainly dead. With a 38" range and Nagash being so tall, range and line of sight is sort of a non issue. Nagash goes down and I immediately claim a Major Victory. The game is over.

In other words, Nagash + 200 Skeletons is almost an automatic loss in an ideal situation. Granted, I doubt you'll play someone with 50 War Machines, but we're talking hypothetical here. The reality is you'd win and then simply never get a second game with anyone. Very quickly you'd develop a reputation and you'd also stop getting first games.

Yes, exactly. There is no balance. Nagash isn't broken, the entire GAME is broken. What's to stop you doing the bolt thrower trick on pretty much every army with a large centrepiece model?

I'm baffled by a discussion of things being "broken" in a game that is clearly not even trying to be balanced.

Common decency. Thats what stops you from obvious auto-win situations. That's it.

Why would anyone want to auto win anyway... Isnt that boring as hell? Can you really continue to find opponents playing that way?

Tactics are now in movement, weapon selections, and target priority/acquisition. No more easy win lists.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm baffled by a discussion of things being "broken" in a game that is clearly not even trying to be balanced.

Me too and yet it remains the constant refrain of criticism.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Common decency. Thats what stops you from obvious auto-win situations. That's it.

Sportsmanship???

Precisely.

There is no point in me continuing this discussion as it is obvious we seek different things in our wargames.

Apologies Da Boss, i actually was commenting reflecting on gw's percieved philosophy. Fwiw, i enjoy competition and striving to win too and dont like the lack of points and balance.

Where my opinion comes into play is simply on the autowin combos. It literally defeats the entire purpose of the game to take them and play that way so i dont see them as being much of a problem. The ruleset is incomplete but it really should only take sportsmanship to keep yourself from finding the most broken combo and continually repeating it. That being said, it would be nice if nagash wasnt so op as to be unplayable without agreeance beforehand. Or really, summoning entirely for that matter

What do you want out of wargames exactly that is missing here? Is it tactics? Balance? Do you enjoy playing if you lose the game? I want to know what you want that i dont also want.

 Red Viper wrote:

You two can go at it all night, trying to finish each other off.

Hahahahahaha! Oh that line is too awesome.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Apologies Da Boss, i actually was commenting reflecting on gw's percieved philosophy. Fwiw, i enjoy competition and striving to win too and dont like the lack of points and balance.

Where my opinion comes into play is simply on the autowin combos. It literally defeats the entire purpose of the game to take them and play that way so i dont see them as being much of a problem. The ruleset is incomplete but it really should only take sportsmanship to keep yourself from finding the most broken combo and continually repeating it. That being said, it would be nice if nagash wasnt so op as to be unplayable without agreeance beforehand. Or really, summoning entirely for that matter

What do you want out of wargames exactly that is missing here? Is it tactics? Balance? Do you enjoy playing if you lose the game? I want to know what you want that i dont also want.

There wasn't any need to apologise, but thanks, it happens too rarely online!

What do I want? Well, I want a game that allows me to stand a fair chance with a fairly broad combination of units (so that many themes and ideas can be explored)and rewards skill in play. I don't mind losing in a fair game where I get beaten due to the other player outplaying me. Even a total hiding can at least be instructive if it comes from a player who really knows what they are doing so I can learn from them. I do not want to engage in the effort of balancing the game so this is achievable myself, or to engage in long debates with other players about where the balance stands. I am an ex pat living in Germany. My german is reasonable, but for this sort of discussion I would find it stressful embarrassing and annoying to have to do that, especially since I do not have an established group so I would have to engage in the conversation (which I do not want to have anyway, since I consider it to be the game designers job to build a balanced game) with total strangers who may have very different interpretations of balance and fair play to me. Having an "official" balance to the game allows me to avoid all of this negotiation and haggling and get on with the enjoyable part, the playing.

AoS plainly does not provide that. I am not going to continuously comment about it, but in the immediate aftermath of the change, I think it is perfectly valid for any gamer to voice their opinion, positive or negative, about the game, without being shouted down by the "other side". (Not accusing you of that, but there's a bit of it going around, on both sides).

Yes, it is completely valid and also constructive for everyone's opinion to be voiced freely, and deconstructive for people to jump on them for it from the other side. I dont have any game stores near me, so I havent lived it myself but I understand the feeling behind not wanting those conversations forced on you, especially since it's not the player's job in the first place. I only play with friends and I also dread the hours of awkward conversation that have to take place before you can enjoy the game.

It's really sad that AoS doesnt provide this for the gaming community.. Even though people are working on points values, that just shifts those awkward conversations to "who's homebrew points system are we using this game?" which still leaves room for players to feel the games they're playing may not have been a truly fair test of skill if they dont trust the developer of the system.

I wanted gw to kick ass with AoS and bring the community together, but it seems it has done the opposite, and it isnt too surprising why. Maybe the future will increase the playability and thus viability of this game as a product, but i have a feeling of disappointment already.

How will you move forward, Da Boss? Are you going to move to a new system? Play AoS? Stick with 8th? Sell your minis?

 Kriswall wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Doesn't seem like much of a "balancing" mechanic to me when you can just drop I dunno, 200 skeletons with Nagash and THEN summon whatever you want. In a game with no points, what's to stop you?

Ok, let's play this game... you drop Nagash, surrounded by ~200+ Skeletons. I drop 50 Dwarf Bolt Throwers as my army, claim Sudden Death and choose the Assassinate objective. The only eligible model you have on the board is Nagash as my Assassinate target, so you pick him. You do whatever you want first turn. On average, 36 Bolt Throwers will kill Nagash in one round of shooting. I have more than 36, so you're almost certainly dead. With a 38" range and Nagash being so tall, range and line of sight is sort of a non issue. Nagash goes down and I immediately claim a Major Victory. The game is over.

In other words, Nagash + 200 Skeletons is almost an automatic loss in an ideal situation. Granted, I doubt you'll play someone with 50 War Machines, but we're talking hypothetical here. The reality is you'd win and then simply never get a second game with anyone. Very quickly you'd develop a reputation and you'd also stop getting first games.

And what do you do if he puts down 49 Nagashes?

I figured the 'summon' spells were on alternate warscrolls to prevent the summoner having everything available

 Da Boss wrote:
Yes, exactly. There is no balance. Nagash isn't broken, the entire GAME is broken. What's to stop you doing the bolt thrower trick on pretty much every army with a large centrepiece model?

I'm baffled by a discussion of things being "broken" in a game that is clearly not even trying to be balanced.

Deployment doesn't work the way you guys are treating it. It's not like WHFB where you write a list, then deploy the troops. You bring whatever models you like, but you don't have to write a list and stick to it.

First I place a model, then you place a model, then we go on alternating placement until one of us has place enough. The other then can carry on to place as many more models as he likes, which could be 0, or 200 skeletons, if you have them and they will fit into the space.

Then you check for possible Sudden Death scenarios.

I doon't know how well this alternation system will help to balance the game, but it certainly allows players to 'game' the deployment phase.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Common decency.

Considering that we still have people arguing that making one group of people have arbitrarily weaker units than another who are using the exact same units... is not discrimination against the first group?

Common decency is clearly lacking in this community.

I sort of just feel like AoS is on the fence, trying to be everything and not managing to be anything.

If you want to compete and see if you can best your opponent (which is fine and a good reason to play a game) then you're better off with a competitive set like 8th or WoK.

If you don't think who wins or loses or having a balancing mechanism is important, but only having the fun you yourself can wrestle out of it (which is fine and a good reason to play any game) then you'd probably be better off with something like Zombicide where losing or winning has nothing to do with how fun you have.

This is a game where you measure yourself against your opponent without establishing a measurement unit tio measure in. I feel like it goes "I have 8." to which the other person responds "I see. I have chestnuts."

I'm not telling you how to enjoy your experience, but I just don't understand it. It is beyond me how this works with vanilla rules.

I know that people here are enjoying it with vanilla rules, and I am actually impressed, because I genuinely don't understand, unless you just happened to field something that was fairly balanced.

Melissia, I agree with your last statement, but am quite confused about what your referring to in the rest of your post.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Doesn't seem like much of a "balancing" mechanic to me when you can just drop I dunno, 200 skeletons with Nagash and THEN summon whatever you want. In a game with no points, what's to stop you?

Ok, let's play this game... you drop Nagash, surrounded by ~200+ Skeletons. I drop 50 Dwarf Bolt Throwers as my army, claim Sudden Death and choose the Assassinate objective. The only eligible model you have on the board is Nagash as my Assassinate target, so you pick him. You do whatever you want first turn. On average, 36 Bolt Throwers will kill Nagash in one round of shooting. I have more than 36, so you're almost certainly dead. With a 38" range and Nagash being so tall, range and line of sight is sort of a non issue. Nagash goes down and I immediately claim a Major Victory. The game is over.

In other words, Nagash + 200 Skeletons is almost an automatic loss in an ideal situation. Granted, I doubt you'll play someone with 50 War Machines, but we're talking hypothetical here. The reality is you'd win and then simply never get a second game with anyone. Very quickly you'd develop a reputation and you'd also stop getting first games.

Not even.

A bolt thrower is a single drop.

If I see a guy with a case of full of bolt throwers, it would go a little differently.

Nagash.

Bolt Thrower.

Unit of 200 skellies.

Bolt Thrower.

<Insert another character here, that can get lost behind terrain>

Bolt Thrower.

<Insert large unit of monstrous creatures to obscure vision to tiny character.>




Automatically Appended Next Post:

red the 'summon' spells were on alternate warscrolls to prevent the summoner having everything a

This so much.

I don't see how people think you can summon units out of your army bag after the game starts. The warscrolls state that "X" can summon "X".

If that warscroll isn't on the board, it's not in the game.

"Oh hey. I have a liche priest at home. Nagash can totally summon some skeletons."

The response is usually "Rules don't say I can't."

They also don't say I can't whip out my ween and piss on some models to deal 10d6 Rain of Sigmar wounds, but people don't seem to agree it's doable.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Doesn't seem like much of a "balancing" mechanic to me when you can just drop I dunno, 200 skeletons with Nagash and THEN summon whatever you want. In a game with no points, what's to stop you?

Ok, let's play this game... you drop Nagash, surrounded by ~200+ Skeletons. I drop 50 Dwarf Bolt Throwers as my army, claim Sudden Death and choose the Assassinate objective. The only eligible model you have on the board is Nagash as my Assassinate target, so you pick him. You do whatever you want first turn. On average, 36 Bolt Throwers will kill Nagash in one round of shooting. I have more than 36, so you're almost certainly dead. With a 38" range and Nagash being so tall, range and line of sight is sort of a non issue. Nagash goes down and I immediately claim a Major Victory. The game is over.

In other words, Nagash + 200 Skeletons is almost an automatic loss in an ideal situation. Granted, I doubt you'll play someone with 50 War Machines, but we're talking hypothetical here. The reality is you'd win and then simply never get a second game with anyone. Very quickly you'd develop a reputation and you'd also stop getting first games.

Not even.

A bolt thrower is a single drop.

If I see a guy with a case of full of bolt throwers, it would go a little differently.

Nagash.

Bolt Thrower.

Unit of 200 skellies.

Bolt Thrower.

<Insert another character here, that can get lost behind terrain>

Bolt Thrower.

<Insert large unit of monstrous creatures to obscure vision to tiny character.>

Odds are better that you have a few extra characters than that your opponent has 50 bolters to field.

I feel like a lot of people forget that this is a collector's game. You don't have an infinite supply of everything. It's not a computer game.

Well it isnt like the warscroll says "this warscroll confers the spell summon pink horrors" it just says all chaos wizards know the summon pink horrors spell. I really think this whole summoning only units in the game thing is incorrect. It was pointed out to me that if they release more summonable units the only way to tell people their casting value is to put it on individual warscrolls.

Also it doesnt say "if this warscroll is in play," or anything that actually says you need to have it there at all. Fwiw i dont plan on summoning anyways, i just have trouble understanding why people would invent this restriction. Summoning is broken, but the intent seems very much to be able to summon anything anytime, which also aligns itself with the freedoms of the rest of the game.

If it said "if this warscroll is in play, all death wizards know the summon skeleton spell." I would concede to your point of view but it just says they know it in the only logical and efficient place to put the separate casting values, on individual warscrolls. Just because they are there doesnt provide new meaning to the words. Also, its the only source material we have for army rules. It has to be there somewhere, they werent gonna put 50 spells and casting values on every death wizard's warscroll.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?55274-40K-Safe-Sane-and-Consensual-or-The-Arrogance-of-Unacknowledged-Playstyles

 pretre wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I thought summoned models counted towards the army size.

Models added to your army during the
game (for example, through summoning,
reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do
not count towards the number of models in
the army, but must be counted among the
casualties an army su ers.

So what was his army size? 1 Model. How many casualties did he suffer? 1 model. He has suffered 100% casualties.

Except you only use percentages if you don't finish a game:

they are fought to the bitter end, with one side able to claim victory because it has destroyed its foe or there are no enemy models left on the field of battle.

So he can lose a skeleton, but the game doesn't immediately end because he has models on the board. It doesn't matter how many casualties he loses or how many models are summoned. Unless! If the battle doesn't go the distance, the second paragraph of "Glorious Victory" kicks in. The very first sentence:

If it has not been possible to fight a battle to its conclusion or the outcome is not obvious, then a result of sorts can be calculated by comparing the number of models removed from play with the number of models originally set up for the battle for each army.

In this case, his girlfriend felt the outcome was obvious and conceded the game.

 argonak wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Doesn't seem like much of a "balancing" mechanic to me when you can just drop I dunno, 200 skeletons with Nagash and THEN summon whatever you want. In a game with no points, what's to stop you?

Ok, let's play this game... you drop Nagash, surrounded by ~200+ Skeletons. I drop 50 Dwarf Bolt Throwers as my army, claim Sudden Death and choose the Assassinate objective. The only eligible model you have on the board is Nagash as my Assassinate target, so you pick him. You do whatever you want first turn. On average, 36 Bolt Throwers will kill Nagash in one round of shooting. I have more than 36, so you're almost certainly dead. With a 38" range and Nagash being so tall, range and line of sight is sort of a non issue. Nagash goes down and I immediately claim a Major Victory. The game is over.

In other words, Nagash + 200 Skeletons is almost an automatic loss in an ideal situation. Granted, I doubt you'll play someone with 50 War Machines, but we're talking hypothetical here. The reality is you'd win and then simply never get a second game with anyone. Very quickly you'd develop a reputation and you'd also stop getting first games.

And what do you do if he puts down 49 Nagashes?

I would pack up my models, go find a more reasonable opponent and ask how it felt to spend 5,145 USD on models that go to waste when everyone refuses games.

 argonak wrote:
And what do you do if he puts down 49 Nagashes?

Eh, I'll play anything once, but in no way can I promise I'd ever play this list again. That said, it would be pretty cool to see 49 painted Nagashes on the table!

Aside: Fun With Math
The base of 1 Nagash takes up 15000 mm² and 49 take up 735000 mm² - this comes out to 1139.252 in²!

If a standard 4'x6' table is divided in half longwise - or is cut up into the L-shaped third option presented in the AOS rules - you get two deployment zones of 12"x72" - or 864 in². As the base of 1 Nagash takes up 23.25 inches², the TFG in question could only deploy 37 Nagashes without overlapping their beautifully finished bases.

However when divided in half shortwise, TFG's deployment zone is a spacious 1152 in², giving ample room for all 49 of his/her Supreme Lords of the Undead. Plus 12 in² of other things (about 3x 50mm bases, 6x cav bases, etc).

So Pro Tip: if somebody's maximizing the deployment zone, choose long zones (And avoid the corner-to-corner split ala Meeting Engagement, it gives something like 1700+ in² of area )

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
As the base of 1 Nagash takes up 23.25 inches², the TFG in question could only deploy 37 Nagashes without overlapping their beautifully finished bases.

You're assuming he/she is either using the original base and/or decorating the base to begin with. Since bases don't count, he could potentially be putting those Nagashes(Nagashii?) on smaller bases to fit more in a zone or intentionally not basing/minimalist basing for planned overlap.

If someone's buying and bringing 49 Nagashusesesii, they're probably basing them in ways to game the deployment, too.

 Platuan4th wrote:
You're assuming he/she is either using the original base and/or decorating the base to begin with. Since bases don't count, he could potentially be putting those Nagashes(Nagashii?) on smaller bases to fit more in a zone or intentionally not basing/minimalist basing for planned overlap.

If someone's buying and bringing 49 Nagashusesesii, they're probably basing them in ways to game the deployment, too.

I provided no asterisk as I knew somebody else would expand upon the F in TFG for me Also because the math was easier (Nagash actually takes up a lot of his base real estate as is - and removing the spirit whatevers doesn't count - those are even included in his profile )

Also I was operating in my own happy magical land of ideal AOS wargaming, where you can put down whatever you want, as long as you meet these two rules:
1) Your stuff is based on bases that match the size of the latest GW released models for that warscroll - because we're measuring from the bases.
2) Your stuff is painted.

Now that's what I call comp

- Salvage