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I'd like to see CSM have access to some Heresy-era tech that has gone out of use in the Imperium.

Like maybe Volkite weapons, rad grenades, rad missiles, etc.

Legion/Cult rules, similar to Chapter Tactics. There needs to be more incentive to monobuild rather than just always taking whatever mark is most useful for each particular unit. Modern CSM armies lack the character that they used to have. A Thousand Sons list should feel and play very differently from a Zombie/Plaguemarine list, which should feel and play very differently from an Iron Warriors list. One way to do this would be to have 5 different Decurion-style detachemnts - one for each god, and one for Chaos Undivided. I would actually go further and do the 5 detachments and legion rules.

Champions should actually be good at challenges, able to easily defeat other faction's sergeants, and be credible threats to their HQ units. A bump to WS 5 and an extra wound would go a long way towards making them credible 1v1 fighters, as well as access to cheaper melee weapons (SM Vanguards get 5pt power weapons, why can't champions of chaos?). Or maybe even artificer armor (!!!)

Dreadclaws should be a vanilla codex option, and should have a plastic kit.

A mobility solution for the codex's many assault units. Whether that be assault rhinos, assault out of deep strike, or something else. This is a univeral problem in 7th edition, but it is particularly brutal for CSM. Something like a Trukk would be cool.

More of the CSM unique characters should have Eternal Warrior. These guys have been fighting for 10,000 years - if they aren't Eternal Warriors then I don't know what is. (Except maybe that uppity new guy Huron Blackheart... it would be hilarious if he were the only character in the codex without EW).

And of course, countless balance changes are needed. Beyond the generally low power level, the codex also has very bad internal balance.

I want no scatter deep striking. Have the chaos forces step forth from the warp. No need for drop pods. 35 points per unit.

 King Pariah wrote:
I'd like to see Mutilators and Warp Talons rolled into one unit. So Obliterators are slow, shooty, and can generally fire upon whatever needs to be shot effectively. On the other hand the Mutilator/Warp Talon hybrid would be a fast, assaulty, and can generally assault whatever needs to be assaulted effectively-ish.

Actually I think Warp talons are pretty much already there. They only need to be able to assault as though they had grenades and then some more useful warp shenanigens and they would be ok.

Daemonic possession needs to be changed as a whole though. Give vehicles the actual daemon rule and let them be god specific possessions and the sort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The one thing you could say for certain, with all these treads, is that GW has enough to work with to make like an entire "imperium of chaos" line to mirror the IoM.

But for god knows what reason, they think they can put it all in normal sized dex. Either that or they're doing the whole AoS thing: "Ok, so we can't write decent rules? feth it, let's just not write rules at all and tout it as a feature!" Or in this case, they're just making a super bland codex and we get to forge to the narrative from there with " epic " houserules.

More options, less spikes, balanced points costs, more flavor

I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if GW just conveniently "forgets" to update CSM's to 7th edition, releases 8th edition with AoS styled "rules", and then Khornifies the entire Chaos Marine range...
The model line itself has been left to rot for so long that it badly needs an entire across the board overhaul, except for the Raptors/Warptalons & Possessed kits. Everything else is missing 1/3rd or more of it's options, which is shameful, since we're currently so bereft of actual options in the first place!

I'd be willing to be that we'll see Tau + IG get new books, and then 40k goes on hold for 4-6 months while plastic Heresy & AoS take over. Then, boom, new near rules-less 40k, and finally 12 months later, we'll see CSM's get new Berserkers + a couple new Khornate IC clampacks.
The rest of the Gods will only exist in the background.

Renegade stuff so they're not forced to go full veteran or nothing chaos marines. Also daemon inspired tech, dark mechanicus stuff like scrap code fun too.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if GW just conveniently "forgets" to update CSM's to 7th edition, releases 8th edition with AoS styled "rules", and then Khornifies the entire Chaos Marine range...
The model line itself has been left to rot for so long that it badly needs an entire across the board overhaul, except for the Raptors/Warptalons & Possessed kits. Everything else is missing 1/3rd or more of it's options, which is shameful, since we're currently so bereft of actual options in the first place!

I'd be willing to be that we'll see Tau + IG get new books, and then 40k goes on hold for 4-6 months while plastic Heresy & AoS take over. Then, boom, new near rules-less 40k, and finally 12 months later, we'll see CSM's get new Berserkers + a couple new Khornate IC clampacks.
The rest of the Gods will only exist in the background.

Could be worse....could be playing Sisters.

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
1) Drop pods

2) Fire Raptors as HS

3) Sort warp talons out

4) Sort possessed out

5) Update entire range of minis

6) Grab equivalent

7) Decent formations

Just my two

This man nailed it in one shot.

In addition to simply never updating CSM, GW will decide to tone down the power creep again and first on the new rotation of weak codices will be CSM

Thanks for the feedback on suggestions. I was in a rush on my train to work when I wrote that so happy to provide more comprehensive suggestions and rationale, time permitting. I feel my army, since third edition has become the red-headed stepchild of 40k.

Also, it would be nice if GW realized that flyers are a thing. I would really appreciate some half decent AA option that doesn't involve pointing your gun into the sky and spraying like your life depends on it.

You could nerf the codex even more for all I care just please keep the scrolls of magnus, or even buff the scrolls.

That one piece of wargear makes my day every game I have.

Please, tell me more lol. I only ever used them when I test played my Thousand Son decurion. It just seems so awful for its points. So much randomness.

Discipline? - random
Power? - random
Actually cast it? - you don't get more warp charges, so very much random.
And all of this while dodging the scrolls themselves.

Plus if you ever luck out and get divination?....no prescience for you sir

I majorly want the different Gods to matter to the army more. They seem so half baked in execution. The marks are fine-ish but could use some work. The cult specific troops/elites could all use a tweak. But specifically, I want army wide effects for followers, not for just specific units. Or for marks that do little to nothing for the unit you're putting it on to be tweaked.

Basically, I want marks to be less of a point sink. The marks cannot be a blanket effect for everything. The mark needs to have different effects for each specific unit. +1 initiative is fine for a unit of Chaos Marines rushing into combat...but what the hell is +1 initiative going to do for Slaanesh Terminators that HAVE to swing at I1 with their power fists? Seriously?

Revamp the entire gift system as well and rework some of the God specific spells. In fact, give each God (other than Khorne since I guess they say 'feth magic') an entire diciplin like Orks got. If Orks can get a full 6 spell list, why can't each God? And make them GOOD and UNIQUE?

Roknar wrote:
Please, tell me more lol. I only ever used them when I test played my Thousand Son decurion. It just seems so awful for its points. So much randomness.

Discipline? - random
Power? - random
Actually cast it? - you don't get more warp charges, so very much random.
And all of this while dodging the scrolls themselves.

Plus if you ever luck out and get divination?....no prescience for you sir

I build a 275 monster Sorc with the scrolls. Murder sword and power axe in terminator armour and mark of tzeentch. I run biomancy to try and get life leech and endurance and run him with 3x tzeentch oblits and anml3 undivided Sorc for back up endo chance or invisibility.

The powers are very random but it has won games for me by giving me a good option to use at that particular time that turned the game in my favour.

I started writing in this thread and I ended up rewriting most of the codex. I think this covers pretty much all the issues, and really letsa player build their army as new renegades or hardened veterans. I figure legion/renegade specific rules can be handled through formations but it has the entries to make a full on legion list just as much as a red corsairs list. This style let's them play like the read in the fluff, powerful, individualistic, and diverse. If i didn't edit it remains the same.

General Rule Changes:

Eliminate VotlW
Eliminate Champions of Chaos Rule
Eliminate Chosen
Marks Remain the same
Add, Mark of Chaos Undivided: Models with this mark are Stubborn, 1ppm
Replace all Icons with the below

Supremacy of Strength:
Any HQ choice that is also the warlord that takes a mark may bring the associated cult marines as troops choices.Independent characters with a mark, or no mark, may join marked units even if that unit does not contain the same mark as the independent character

Icons: 20pts
May only be taken by a unit with no mark or the same corresponding mark. Does not apply to independent characters attached to the unit unless they have the corresponding mark themselves.
Friendly units that deepstrike within 6” of a model with an icon do not scatter
IoS: +1 to snap fire
IoK: +1 Attack
IoT: lvl 1 Brotherhood of psykers, Tzeentch lore
IoN: FNP

Demon Engine: Ignores crew shaken on a 2+, ignores crew stunned on a 4+, IWND

Champions: Chaos units are lead by the strongest (or most cunning). Have access to wargear options, melee and ranged options, but not relics. Take the base profile and add the following:
Aspiring Sorcerer +20pts: lvl 1, + 1 attack, ld 9, must exchange a weapon for a force sword, axe, or stave
Aspiring Champion +10pts: +1 WS and Attack, +1 LD

Wargear Additions:
Dimensional Rift 30pts: Model and any unit this model is attached to may deepstrike
Sorcerer or Aspiring Sorcerer only

UNITS:

Lord: Add Fleshmetal as option 20pts (2+ armor save), Lord of the Long war 25pts: +1 WS, BS, and attack; May take Veteran Warbands as troop choices


Cult Troops are powerful but inflexible. No Icons or other marks may be taken.

Plague Marines: Elites
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 5 I 4 A 1 LD 9 AS 3+
5-20 Models, 18 PPM
May take Aspiring sorcerer or Aspiring champion
Plague Bolters (4+ poison), Plague Knives

Noise Marines: Elites
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 9 AS 3+
5-20, 16ppm
+1 Snap Shots
Sonic Blasters, CCW
May upgrade 1 per 6 models to blastmaster for +15pts
May take Aspiring sorcerer or Aspiring champion

Berserkers: Elites
5-20, 17ppm
WS 5 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 2 LD 9 AS 3+Furious Charge
Chainaxes, Bolt Pistol
May Take Aspiring Champion

Thousand Sons: Elites
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 9 AS 3+
5-20, 18 ppm Brotherhood of Psykers lvl 1, Slow and Purposeful
Bolters (inferno Bolts)
May Take Aspiring Sorcerer. If taken, unit loses slow and purposeful for relentless

Cultists: Troops
WS 3 BS 3 S 3 W 1 T 3 I 3 A 1 LD 6 AS -
10-30, 4 PPM
las pistol, CCW, no armor
May replace las pistol and CCW for a autogun for free
For every 5 models may take a flamer or grenade launcher
May take a Veteran Warband Aspiring champion
May take marks and icons May take any of the following: 1ppm per upgrade
Rouge Milita: Flak Armor, Frag Grenades
Saboteurs: infiltrate
Death cult: +1 attack

Scavengers: Troops
Not all chaos marines can maintain their equipment to the highest standards. Cutoff from the imperiurm, and even other warbands, scavengers are cut throat warriors who salvage what they can from whomever is weakest.
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 7 AS 4+
5-10, 11ppm
Infiltrate
BP & CCW
May take Icons and Marks

Renegade Warband: Troop
Whether newly traitors to the imperium, vat grown monsters in the eye, or just cutthroat renegades, renegade warbands offer refuge, supplies, and organization for the continuous raiding and wars that is life as a renegade marine.
5-20, 13ppm
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 8 AS 3+
Bolter, BP. May exchange for CCW and BP for free.
May take a special or heavy weapon for every 5 models in the unit.
May take Aspiring sorcerer or Aspiring champion
May take marks and icons

Veteran Warband: Elite
Some are traitor legionares who’ve been battling since the Horus heresy, others are renegades who’ve battled for lifetimes in the warp infested parts of the galaxy. For the leaders of chaos, Veteran Warbands offer strength and skill unmatched.
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 9 AS 3+
5-20, 15ppm
Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW
May take a special or heavy weapon for every 5 models in the unit.
May take a melee weapon for every 5 models in the unit.
May take Aspiring sorcerer or Aspiring champion
May take marks and icons
May Take a single veteran skill for 20pts: Tank Hunters, Monster Hunters, Infiltrate, Split Fire

Havok Support Squad: Heavy Support
5-10, 13ppm
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 8 AS 3+
Bolter, BP
5 models must exchange their bolter for a heavy or special weapon
May take Aspiring sorcerer or Aspiring champion
May take marks and icons

Raptors: Fast Attack
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 8 AS 3+
5-20, 15 ppm
Bolt Pistol, CCW
May take a special weapon for every 5 models in the unit.
May take Aspiring champion
May take marks and icons

Chaos Terminators: Elites
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 2 T 4 I 4 A 2 LD 9 AS 2+
3-10, 30 ppm
May take terminator melee weapons
May take a combi-weapon for +5 points; For every 5 models may take a heavy flamer for 5pts or a reaper autocannon for 15pts
May upgrade the whole unit to Veteran terminators for 5ppm; gain +1 WS, BS, and attack
May take Aspiring sorcerer or Aspiring champion
May take marks and icons

Possessed: Elite Remove possessed table
WS 4 BS 4 S 5 W 2 T 4 I 4 A 3 LD 8 AS 3+
5-20, 17ppm
Demon, Fearless, Fleet
Frag Grenades
May Take Aspiring Champion


Warp Talons: Fast Attack
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 W 1 T 4 I 4 A 2 LD 8 AS 3+
5-20, 20ppm
Demon, Fearless
Frag Grenades
Dimensional Terrors: Once per game, may make a 24” move in the movement, shooting, or assault phase. May not assault in the turn this ability is used.
May Take Aspiring Champion


Obliterators: Heavy
WS 4 BS 5 S 4 W 2 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 8 AS 2+
1-5, 40ppm
Demon, Fearless
Obliterator weapons can be used consecutively, count as having defensive grenades
May take marks

Mutilators: Elite
WS 5 BS 4 S 4 W 2 T 4 I 4 A 1 LD 8 AS 2+
3-10, 40ppm
Demon, Fearless
Mutilator Weapons can be used consecutively, count as having assault grenades
May Take Marks

Dreadnought: Elite
Remove Crazed Table
1-3, 100pts
4 Attacks base
Multi-melta, powerfist
Marks 10pts: MoK = Rage, MoN= IWND, MoS= +1 snap shots, MoT= Brotherhood of Psykers

Forgefiend: Heavy Support
125pts, BS 4
Plasma upgrade free, plasma head +15 pts
Demon Engine

Mauler Fiend: Fast Attack
125pts, WS 4
Demon Engine

Defiler: Heavy Support
150 pts
WS 4, BS 4
Demon Engine

Chaos Land raider:
250pts
12 carrying capacity
Demon Engine

I certainly hope that the Thousand Sons are better than what you put down, but saying that they are still an improvement over the current ones!

I'd just make inferno round bolters assault 2 and call it a day, tbh.

Thousand sons is one of those things that would be better served by a proper codex. They are too unique compared to the other legions or even space marines.

1. Legion rules, so I can make Night Lords or Iron Warriorsor Death Guard and have them actually play like they're supposed to
2. Chosen that aren't useless and overpriced. Give them veteran skills like in 3rd Edition.
3. Some viable anti-air that isn't a Heldrake.
4. Better assault delivery. It's an assaulty codex and we have access to the worst Land Raider variant and the vanilla Rhino and that's it. FW gives us dreadclaws but even then we're pretty limited.
5. A plastic CSM kit that isn't ugly as ass. The kit is dated, the horns look bolted-on and silly, the details kinda fade into one another near the feet, and there's no heavy weapons other than the heavy bolter unless we buy the Havocs box. I want a 10-man plastic CSM box that has the look of the Dark Vengeance chosen or the Raptors. I want those helmet horns to look like they grew out of the helmet on their own.
6. A plastic Khorne Berzerker box that isn't ugly as ass. The running legs look stupid. The only time you'll ever have your upper body shifted that far away from your legs in combat is if you're either subject to a takedown or doing an osoto-gari style reaping takedown where you're grasping their upper body.
7. Plastic cult marines. I'm totally cool with my FW plague marines but the other ones are kinda getting screwed.
6. Possibly special rules for post-legion renegades like Red Corsairs, Flawless Host, Crimson Slaughter (I mean if they revamp it they should keep them because they're cool).

1. More unit options across our bread & butter units. I want to see us get the Heavy Flamer back as an option for CSM & Chosen squads, as well as giving us a couple new weapons that mix ancient tech + foul warp magicks. One of our biggest issues is that we have next to no ability to saturate the field with firepower... We need our own unique versions of the likes of Assault cannons, Grav, etc... in order to compete in today's game.
Likewise, a new close combat upgrade since those Loyalist dogs now have Eviscerators alongside 5th ed's Relic blade... (FFS, 'Zerkers should definitely get Chain glaives that are similar in function to Eviscerators!)

2. A better delivery system. Our mobility issues are in even worse shape than fething Guard are, and we're a god damned ASSAULT army.

3. Legion/Renegade Doctrines. I'd be perfectly happy if they kept them to the non-dedicated Legions. If Loyalists get multiple codices and then 6 unique Chapter Tactics on top of that, then at the very least we should a set of similar rules for;
- Black Legion
- Alpha Legion
- Iron Warriors
- Night Lords
- Word Bearers
- Red Corsairs
- Crimson Slaughter
Sure the 4 cults aren't there, but really, for the most part playing one of the 4 dedicated Legions is simply more or less just loading up on the specific cult unit + daemonic units/vehicles... Yes we miss out on Cult Termies, but overall, it's a small price to pay for at least getting the majority of the Legions/infamous Renegades represented.

4. An entirely re-vamped model line please.

Obliterators should be T5 standard imo.

Make MoK +1 attack base instead of Rage and Counter Attack so it's useful past the first round of combat.

Dreadclaws.

wow i didnt expect this thread to explode, thx guys, its nice to see that their are a lot of people that like to see this codex become good, i do have some ideas for the codex, i think the chaos space marines should get a 6+ fnp due to long periods spent in the warp, i also think that we should get special daemon weapon for a special weapon which is assualt d6 str5 ap3 and the str and ap goes up for every wound it takes up to str7 ap1, i also think that raptors should be merged with warptalons and they have an option to become daemon with lighting claws. the forgfiend should have more range on its plasma cannons and less the points cost, for the maulerfiend it should +1 ws and should have somthing good against hordes, the helbrute should be daemon

all i really want:

Mono Legion lists with benefits (using sacred number etc)
and a customizable Chaos Lord that doesnt suck even if they make him cost way more the relics are just lame.

Possessed need a boost in power as well. and of course boost the dread attacks to 4

-v10mega wrote:
wow i didnt expect this thread to explode, thx guys, its nice to see that their are a lot of people that like to see this codex become good, i do have some ideas for the codex, i think the chaos space marines should get a 6+ fnp due to long periods spent in the warp, i also think that we should get special daemon weapon for a special weapon which is assualt d6 str5 ap3 and the str and ap goes up for every wound it takes up to str7 ap1, i also think that raptors should be merged with warptalons and they have an option to become daemon with lighting claws. the forgfiend should have more range on its plasma cannons and less the points cost, for the maulerfiend it should +1 ws and should have somthing good against hordes, the helbrute should be daemon

I really like the idea of 6+ FnP, perhaps with 6+ invul save also, for Chaos Space Marines who have spent time in the warp. It makes them mathematically tougher than regular marines but not omg overpowered so. I would offer those rules on an upgraded suite of power/terminator armour available to characters and elite units. Call it Helscarred armour or Warptainted armour or whatever.

I dont play chaos, (as you can see by my pic) but I would love if Chaos took the Space Marine route and had Legion/Warband Tactics. And maybe some sort of buff/points decrease for my favorite warband; the Thousand Sons

-Eternal Warrior Daemon Princes
-Less randomness
-Codex psychic powers that are worth taking
-Undivided Princes (I have a thang for Be'lakor)
-A Chaosified feel

Do that, and allow them to ally with IG as BB. I'll be a happy bunny.

Wait.

I just realized that the question was "so what do you think should be on the new csm codex?"

I think that a Chaos Space Marines should be ON the CSM codex cover. Preferably with a montage of war behind him, like a Vindicator shooting or a Dreadclaw Drop Pod deploying since they better get a damn kit!

Edit: Also, maybe the words Codex Chaos Space Marines!

 kronk wrote:
Wait.

I just realized that the question was "so what do you think should be on the new csm codex?"

I think that a Chaos Space Marines should be ON the CSM codex cover. Preferably with a montage of war behind him, like a Vindicator shooting or a Dreadclaw Drop Pod deploying since they better get a damn kit!

Edit: Also, maybe the words Codex Chaos Space Marines!

CSM = Chaos Space Marines.....C:SM = Codex Space Marines.